Has Eternal Life?

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japhy said:
I’ve always found this particular saying of Paul’s a bit puzzling. The humble sinner, full of repentance, faith, and love, doesn’t seem to me to be the kind of person who does things to seek glory, honor, and immortality. And yet, that is just the man to whom God grants eternal life! So the “glory” and “honor” we Christians are seeking cannot be worldly, but must be heavenly. We seek glory, the glory (and glorification) of God. We seek honor, the honorific title of “Child of God”. The immortality we seek we know we shall only gain through death to this life.

Contrast that with the wicked man’s desire for glory, honor, and immortality. He seeks his own glory, so others will be envious of him. He seeks honor of men (cf. Matthew 23:6), both greater and lesser than himself, so that he will be held in high esteem by men. And the immortality he seeks is in this world, so that he might extend his own reign, and have control over those weaker than himself for as long as possible.
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Wow! That’s extremely insightful. 👍

When i think about it, repentance is the first step to seeking glory, honor and eternal life. The first step to becoming good, i think, is admitting that i’m not, which is repentance. The first step to repentance, i think is admitting that God is good, for “realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance” (Romans 2:4) is an essential ingredient of genuine repentance. Don’t you think?

… God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

(Romans 5:8)
 
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.(Romans 1:28-32)After taking some time to contemplate Romans 1 and ask God for wisdom, japhy, i believe the answer to my question, “Do you think the sins St. Paul lists do not appear to be motivated by repentance, faith and love?” is obvious:

The sins of which St. Paul are speaking are those of a person whose reasons for living are not repentance, not faith and not love. Instead of repentance, faith and love, their motives are:
  • Rebellion, or unrepentant pride, for they are the kind of people whom “God … gave … over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done” who “have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity”.
  • Faithlessness, or a lack of trust in Jesus, “since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God”.
  • Loathing or hatred, because “they are … God-haters … heartless, ruthless”.
    My next question, then, is a simple one, the answer to which is likely more obvious than the last question. However, i should ask it of you japhy, and also RC, Michael and anyone else who cares to give a sincere reply. The question is this:
Are rebellion, faithlessness and loathing toward God and others the motives of a follower of Christ? or are these the attitudes of someone who either never became a Christian or who, if she was once a Christian, is one no longer?
 
guanophore said:
Because you are! This is Socrates method. It prevents him from having to take a risk.
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Guano:

Reason is a process of premises that together lead to a conclusion. If all in a discussion agree to every one of the premises, and the premises support the conclusion, then the conclusion is found to be the truth. If any of the premises we have all agreed are true are actually false, then you should, as one “speaking the truth in love” point this out to us. Please, if you know one of the premises to be a lie, tell us so. Does not God demand you do so?

However, if each premise up to this point is, in fact, true, then you should sit at the pear with us and wait for this ship to come in. For, in this discussion there is not yet a conclusion. Like a ship coming over the horizon of the sphere of the earth the conclusion now appears to be coming into sight, but we do not yet know what flag it is flying.

When the ship does dock at port, you can examine the conclusion, or cargo hold, to see if it is filled with a treasure trove of truth or not. Perhaps the conclusion we all reach will not be supported by the premises, and you can then point out our error. You can then reveal to us what correct conclusion should be drawn from the premises we have carefully examined.

This method is called the philosophical discipline of rational reasoning, or logic, which i have been told, many of the early church fathers used. If you believe this method is not a valid way to discover the truth, please explain why.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Are rebellion, faithlessness and loathing toward God and others the motives of a follower of Christ? or are these the attitudes of someone who either never became a Christian or who, if she was once a Christian, is one no longer?
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Guano:

Would you care to answer this question so we can know the truth about the next premise?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Are rebellion, faithlessness and loathing toward God and others the motives of a follower of Christ? or are these the attitudes of someone who either never became a Christian or who, if she was once a Christian, is one no longer?
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I would say they are attitudes of a person who is not a Christian at that moment.
 
japhy said:
I would say they are attitudes of a person who is not a Christian at that moment.
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I would have to agree. A Christian is able to sin and thus “grieve the Holy Spirit.”

According to Catholic theology, the only good works that God will reward are those done in a state of grace and out of love. A Christian has a regenerated heart and thus has the capability of pleasing God and bearing fruits of holiness. However, a Christian can fail in persevering in holiness. Note that Romans 2 says that eternal life is given who persist in doing good. As the Bible says, only those who persevere to the end will be saved. God infuses faith and love in the heart of a Christian. However, the Christian must chose to “activate” this gift by living a righteous life and persevering in godliness until the end.

Here are three interesting links on justification, salvation, and works:

catholica.pontifications.net/?p=2209

catholica.pontifications.net/?p=2112

catholica.pontifications.net/?p=1717

God Bless,
Michael
 
I would also like to add that there is a difference between what a Christian can do and what a Christian will do.

Can a Christian do the good works pleasing to God? Yes! Why? Because he/she is a new creation, created to do good works. The Christian is given the Holy Spirit, sanctifying grace, and is infused with the gifts of faith and love, all that is necessary to bear holy fruit pleasing to God. Will he/she do these works? There is a high possibility that he/she will. But there is another question. Will they persevere in bearing holy fruit pleasing to God? The promise in Romans 2:6-7 is to those who persevere in righteousness. This promise is reaffirmed by Galatians 6:7-10.

** 7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.**

You reap whay you sow. Just another way of saying God will judge us according to our works. Those who persevere in sowing goodness will reap eternal life in the age to come. Jesus Himself said that only those who persevere to the end will be saved.

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
I would have to agree. A Christian is able to sin and thus “grieve the Holy Spirit.” …
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Yes, i would agree with you and japhy, too. There are sins that we can commit that grieve God, but you and i and japhy can grieve God without hating Him, can’t we?

What i’m suggesting is that the acts St. Paul mentions in Romans, chapter one cannot possibly be the acts of the children of God. Consider St. Paul’s list of sins:
  • Refusal to believe the knowledge of God
  • Having depraved minds
  • Filled with every kind of wickedness
  • Filled with every kind of evil
  • Filled with every kind of greed
  • Filled with every kind of depravity
  • Full of envy
  • Full of strife
  • Full of deceit
  • Full of malice
  • Gossips
  • Slanderers
  • God-haters
  • Insolent
  • Arrogant
  • Boastful
  • Inventors of ways of doing evil
  • Disobedient to parents
  • Senseless
  • Faithless
  • Heartless
  • Ruthless
  • Knowing that those who do such things deserve hell
  • But continually doing these very things anyway
  • And also approving of those who practice them
    I do not see how this describes the acts of a genuine Roman Catholic who has fallen to temptation, but repented of what he has done and confessed his sin. Rather, i see this as a description of people who habitually sin, without any guilt, going from bad to worse, from one wicked, evil act to another. St. Paul’s description is of someone you might find in a maximum security prison on death row, not of the person sitting in the pew next to you at mass.
Do you both agree?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
I’m curious what others think, as i think i’m starting to see the answer to my questions about the meaning of Romans chapter two, but i want to be certain.

Does anyone disagree that repentance, faith and love are motives that make a person’s actions good?
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I think that only grace can “make” a person’s actions good. Faith, repentance and love are all responses to grace. If they are present, the tree will bring forth good fruit.
Socrates4Jesus said:
Does anyone disagree that self-righteous pride, fear and hatred are the motives that make a person’s actions evil?
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pride, fear and hatred are evil in and of themselves, without any further actions taking place. However, since they indicate an evil root, the tree is bad, and the fruit is also therefore bad.
 
guanophore said:
I think that only grace can “make” a person’s actions good. Faith, repentance and love are all responses to grace. If they are present, the tree will bring forth good fruit.

pride, fear and hatred are evil in and of themselves, without any further actions taking place. However, since they indicate an evil root, the tree is bad, and the fruit is also therefore bad.
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Yes, i would agree with that, Guano. As Jesus said:

The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.

(Luke 6:45)

Repentance, faith and love are good motives that produce good fruit (or results). Rebellion, faithlessness and hatred are evil motives that produce evil fruit (or results).

I’m starting to think that faithlessness is a better word to use than fear, for some acts of cowardice cannot correctly be called evil.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
What if a person does the wrong things for the right reasons; won’t God judge that?
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Or how about starting out the wrong way, then changing direction?

Matt 21:28-32

28 “What do you think? A man had two sons; and he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ 29 And he answered, ‘I will not’; but afterward he repented and went. 30 And he went to the second and said the same; and he answered, ‘I go, sir,’ but did not go. 31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the harlots believed him; and even when you saw it, you did not afterward repent and believe him.”​
 
guanophore said:
Or how about starting out the wrong way, then changing direction?

Matt 21:28-32

…For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the harlots believed him; and even when you saw it, you did not afterward repent and believe him."
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Yes, Guano, i agree that a person can start his life in rebellion and reach a point where he chooses to repent (not change his mind about just a single sin, but change his mind about the direction he should take with his life). 👍

Everyone, i think you might agree, must make a U-turn in the road of his life. (Isn’t that part of what Confirmation is about?) Each one of us must come to a point where we decide to forever turn from living for sin and turn to living for Him (Jesus Christ). I believe Jesus would agree with you and me, for he said

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”(John 5:24)

I think the people Jesus is describing are the same people St. Paul is describing in Romans 2, when he wroteTo those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.(Romans 2:7)They are people who have decided to make a permanent commitment to Christ. They are people who have decided to give up a life of rebellion, faithlessness and loathing and marry themselves to a life of repentance, faith and love, don’t you think?
 
JoeyWarren said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*[hat if a person does the *wrong things for the right reasons; won’t God judge that?
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Such as a “Protective Lie” or “Noble Lie”?

Or killing a murderer so he does not murder again?

Yes, Joey, those topics would be great for another discussion. Keep in mind, however, that this discussion is not about “what if”. This discussion is about “what is”. Just what is St. Paul talking about in Romans, chapters 1 and 2? This is what i am trying to understand and know for certain.

When you read chapter one, i’m sure you agree that he is *in no way *talking about people who are trying to repent of their sin, have faith in God, and love Him and others. Rather, he is speaking of people who “although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.” (Romans 1:32)

(BTW, a pastor whom i respect named Chuck Smith says that those words, “but also approve of those who practice them” can hit home when put in the context of watching movies and TV, or surfing the Web.)
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Regarding your second point, which i rephrased as this questionWhat if a person does the wrong things for the right reasons; won’t God judge that?This i do not know, but what i do know is that these are not the circumstances of the people St. Paul is addressing, for he writes

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. (Romans 2:1)What things are St. Paul talking about? They are those in the previous chapter:

Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.(Romans 1:28-32)I do not think these sins are describing people doing the wrong things for the right reasons, because the right reasons, as we agree, are
  • Repentance
  • Faith
  • Love
    The sins St. Paul lists do not appear to be motivated by repentance, faith and love. Do you think this is correct?
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Returning to this question, what does everyone think? Do you think St. Paul is describing, in chapter 1, the life of a repentant Christian or an unrepentant non-Christian?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Returning to this question, what does everyone think? Do you think St. Paul is describing, in chapter 1, the life of a repentant Christian or an unrepentant non-Christian?
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The latter half of Romans 1 is speaking of people who exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator (Rom 1:25), people who are filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice (Rom 1:29). Then, at the beginning of Romans 2 (chapters and verses were distinctions made several centuries afterwards, of course), Paul continues speaking of these people: Therefore you have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you judge another; for in passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things. (Rom 2:1)

In Romans 1, Paul is describing people who have distanced themselves from God by filling their lives with wickedness and evil.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
a person can start his life in rebellion and reach a point where he chooses to repent (not change his mind about just a single sin, but change his mind about the direction he should take with his life). 👍

They are people who have decided to make a permanent commitment to Christ. They are people who have decided to give up a life of rebellion, faithlessness and loathing and marry themselves to a life of repentance, faith and love, don’t you think?
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I do think it, verily. And I have thought the same about you since I read you OP.😃
 
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