Has Pope Benedict's reforms helped to contribute to Catholic Charismatic Renewal's slow demise?

[otjm]

I have no doubt that a lot of the gifts the Charismatics speak of are still given out to those people of faith in the Catholic Church. You don’t have to be a Charismatic or be Baptized in the Holy Spirit to be so gifted. Now when it comes to the more esoteric gifts mentioned by Paul, such as praying, speaking prophecy, and interpreting tongues it becomes a lot more nebulous. Healing, teaching, discernment, etc. are gifts found all over in our Church.

As for the emotional high that some experience, I still fail to understand why many of us believe that only intellect on the one hand or emotion on the other are the full measure of truth in the Faith. Its like trying to perform a job with one arm when we, most of us, have two. It is again another case of either/or as opposed to both/and.

As to the Charismatic movement having it’s source in Catholics being Baptized in the Spirit by protestants, that is not the whole story. There are also well documented instances of the so-called Baptism of the Holy Spirit that have occurred, for example to a retreat group of young Catholics at Duquesne University; students who knew zip about any Charismatic movement at the time. It is important to note that the so called Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a Baptism at all, but more like an experience of ecstacy similar to that described by some saints. My personal opinion is that when it happens, it happens for the first time in a lot of peoples lives when they begin to get on, an emotional level, an experience of the love that God has for them.

I have seen people “Slain or resting in the Spirit,” some of them when I was praying for them; some at other times when someone else was praying for them. I have also seen instances where the praying person actually pushed on the forehead of the person being prayed for, but I and others had not even touched the individuals in most of my experiences. I have never been slain in the spirit myself and am at a total loss as to why or how it happens, but it does happen.

have you ever noticed that the people who have the least experience with something are the first to have profound opinions that it is not real?

 

[palmas85]

palmas85;3515378:

I don’t know why charismatic renewal began among protestants first. I don’t like this fact but that’s how it was. Holy Spirit always comes when we ask him to come, also when protestants do it. Let me explain something - I reject protestantism but I don’t reject the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not a sacrament. It’s aim is to make “active” gifts that already are in us and to change our lives.
I**'m surprised you are not convinced about the gift of tongues. Mary, apostles and other disciples received it during the Pentecost. Also Paul in his letters mentions the gift of tongues a few times, and he thanks he speaks tongues more than others.**

Prophecy is for encouraging and comforting. Holy Spirit reveals either future events or facts that are known only to him. That’s a long story, I recommend you finding a book about prophecy, there’s so much to say about it.
Obviously there were many healings in the CC before charismatic renewal. But because of the CR there are much more of them, even thousands in one place at a time (Africa), have a look here:
coretlumenchristi.org/Site_stream/videos.htm

CR was accepted by popes since Paul VI, I don’t think they might be wrong to support it.
Those gifts are for us and for our good and we should not neglect them. If you are not sure about something - find out what it is instead of rejecting it. I think it’s sometimes difficult for Catholics to receive something from protestants… It’s our pride Anyway, forget about protestants, just look at the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
God bless.

Yes they did. And when they did everyone understood what they were saying even those who were from another background and spoke different languages. It was far from a private language they alone could understand and be used at will. Yes, Paul did say that he had more experience with tongues than the others, but he also said, the tongues at Corinth were unintelligible. The church members seemed more interested in demonstration than in communication. Paul wrote them to either pray for the ability to interpret (I Cor. 14:23) or find someone who was able to (I Cor. 14:5,27), for if a visitor heard them all speaking as they did he would think they were crazy (I Cor. 14:23). Thus their practice was speaking in “unknown” tongues, something different from that recorded in the Acts. This is what is happens most of the time in the present day Charismatic movement.

So I find firm scriptural evidence to reject what is happening today as to the speaking in tongues. As to healing I’m all for it:thumbsup: As to prophecy, I think these days that kind of falls under the general heading of private revelation unless it comes from an approved apparition such as Our Lady of Fatima etc.

Hey if you think that the movement is genuine go for it:thumbsup: .

I don’t think it is however. I have a firm belief in the Catholic faith. I don’t think that anything the protestants bring to the table is necessarily going to help us in any way whatsoever and since most of them don’t particularly like the Catholic Church, things they do may actually hurt us.

Its food for thought anyway.

 

[pnewton]

Please don’t do as many have done and fall into the cult of Papal worship.
.

Let’s not also call into the patter of anti-Catholics and how they refer to the Catholic position on the virgin Mary. No one here worships a pope as God and no one has started a cult around a pope.

 

[pnewton]

I have no problems with accepting the charismatic gifts for today, although I have no interest in charismatic worship. I used to be a dispensationalist and believed the spiritual gifts were just temporary to give witness to new revelation. It is my understanding, though that this is contrary to the teaching of the Church. I think the real reason of the decline of the charismatic movement is its decline in faithfulness to the Church. One can not continue to disregard Church teaching and discipline and expect God to bless you. Operating outside the norms the Church lays out is a recipe for failure.

 

[palmas85]

Let’s not also call into the patter of anti-Catholics and how they refer to the Catholic position on the virgin Mary. No one here worships a pope as God and no one has started a cult around a pope.

There are those who react as if the Pope is God, in particular a certain Pope. I never said anyone on this forum does. I said many do. I stand by that.

 

[pnewton]

There are those who react as if the Pope is God, in particular a certain Pope. I never said anyone on this forum does. I said many do. I stand by that.

Well that is a new one. Have you seen any link or have a name I can search for this group? Do they really believe the a Pope was one of the divine persons of the Holy Trinity? Do they worship one Pope as creator of heaven and Earth? I have not heard of this cult.

 

[palmas85]

palmas85;3515378:

Obviously there were many healings in the CC before charismatic renewal. But because of the CR there are much more of them, even thousands in one place at a time (Africa), have a look here:
coretlumenchristi.org/Site_stream/videos.htm

I watched the videos. The ones produced by the Protestants are much better, but they have had more practice at this sort of thing. They are much more dramatic and much more lifelike. Sometimes . . Check out You Tube and you’ll see some really good healing clips including one where, are you ready, a leg that is shorter than the other one actually grows:thumbsup: ::
On camera:thumbsup: :

Hey maybe they could start selling prayer cloths and raise enough money to put on some really good videos like that one.

 

[Listener]

I don’t think that think that Pope Benedict’s reforms have anything to do with the Charismatic Renewal one way or the other. My understanding is that the Pope’s spiritual advisor is a prominent charismatic priest who speaks at international Charismatic Renewals. I personally found the Charismatic Renewal to be a great blessing. Since the Holy Spirit is really in charge of the Charismatic Renewal, we will see where it leads. For more information, see www.wwccr.org.

WWCCR stands for Western Washing Catholic Charismatic Renewal. There is an article in their newsletter written by this priest. His name is Father Raniero Cantalamessa.

 

[Indyann]

I think it is more to do with the generation than anything. The up and coming generation are seeing first hand the disaster caused by the previous generations. Also I believe God’s Providence is strongly behind this traditionalist minded revival and repudiation of the “no limits” mindset. The Church is just now coming out of a big storm and it will emerge stronger than ever.

Yes. That generation is dying out, the problem is it is not dying off fast enough.

There is a new sheriff in town for one, and the Motu Proprio was the most important document issued in quite a while. Pope Benedict is slowly doing all he can to steer the ship back on course.

Yes the liberalist charismatic renewal it breathing its last breaths.

Well, let’s just wait and see what the results of this Congress is before you make such a declaration.

zenit.org/article-22191?l=english

 

[cothrige]

Well the Catholic church is stagnant according to recent vatican numbers. For whatever reason it is not transforming people. Like says Hispanic males. We’ve all heard stories of how catholic Hispanic males who did not attned church and were wordly embraced pentecostalism and are transformed as individuals and as they relate to others.

I think we can take a good look at what is stagnant and what is not and learn something. Which groups are growing the fastest? Islam certainly leads statistically, but in many places Fundamentalist Christianity continues to grow in leaps and bounds. Why? And why is the Church “stagnant” in its growth?

I think the obvious answer lies in basic honesty and what draws people to a faith. When I officially became a Catholic, I was raised high-church Anglican and so always felt catholic btw, I was told by the sister running the RCIA class that the Catholic Church was just one denomination in God’s Church. I ask you, why should people alienate themselves from their families, undergo study and inconvenient classes in order to convert to a Church which doesn’t actually have any greater place in God’s “Church” than does the one the person is coming from? Our modern Church is all about grey areas, and we no longer get any sense of clarity about what God expects from us.

If we compare this to those other non-stagnant groups we can see a clear line of demarcation. Muslims know exactly what they believe God expects of them. So do Fundamentalists. In fact, these groups are both effectively “fundamentalist” and that draws converts. Clear faith attracts believers and converts, and enlivens a people, not mush-mouthed indecision. And, regardless of any perceived gifts, the Charismatic movement is less waffly (is that a word? ) than is the rest of the Catholic Church. It probably inherits some of that from it’s Protestant roots, but it also has a somewhat focussed and unique spirituality to deflect any notice from its rather confused theological underpinnings.

What do you think. The Pew study confirmed that cradle born catholics are abdoning their faith in droves. Not being fed.

We have to define “being fed.” The Charismatic movement is focussed better, and therefore the people are more satisfied within it as they get what they are looking for. Mainstream Catholics however are generally not getting what they are looking for, which is faith and clarity. Because of that they will drift away to another church, whether it be pentecostal or whatever, or to nothing at all. In any case they will go where the preaching is clear and specific and unafraid. It may not be theologically clear, as in the Charismatics, but it will be direct and clear about something. But people are never fed or inspired by fear. Priests who will not preach anything or teach anything because they don’t want to offend this or that group will never enliven the faith regardless of what they think.

Patrick

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

More good news. I had no idea the Charismatic movement was dying out. First an admission that “pro multis” should NOT be translated as “for all”; next the admission from the Pope himself that the old Mass “had never been abrogated” and was “always permitted”, and now this!

As the Charismatics might say: I think we are witnessing a true movement of the Spirit.

 

[Indyann]

More good news. I had no idea the Charismatic movement was dying out. First an admission that “pro multis” should NOT be translated as “for all”; next the admission from the Pope himself that the old Mass “had never been abrogated” and was “always permitted”, and now this!

As the Charismatics might say: I think we are witnessing a true movement of the Spirit.

ZE08040306 - 2008-04-03
Permalink: zenit.org/article-22191?l=english

Building the Church Charism by Charism

Congress Studying History of Holy Spirit

ROME, APRIL 3, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Leaders of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal have gathered experts in Rome to discuss charisms and their role in the Church.

A congress that began today and ends Sunday brought together bishops, theologians and lay leaders to reflect on the doctrine and practice of charisms in the Church today.

The International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services, based in the Vatican, and the Catholic Fraternity of Charismatic Covenant Communities and Fellowships, based in Bari, Italy, collaborated with the Pontifical Council for Laity in organizing the event.

According to a communiqué from the Vatican-based organization, the congress aims to go in-depth into the teaching of the Church on charisms and how they have been exercised throughout history, from the apostolic times to the present, and especially in the charismatic renewal movement.

Cardinal Stanislaw Rylko, president of the Pontifical Council for Laity, introduced the event. Other bishops and leaders of the charismatic organizations will also offer contributions. Father Raniero Cantalamessa, preacher of the Pontifical Household, will offer a reflection on the Fathers of the Church.

Oreste Pesare, executive director of the offices of the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services, said, “To speak of charisms does not mean to speak only of miraculous works. …] The Catechism of the Catholic Church clearly reminds us, ‘Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world.’ [CCC 799]”

In this sense, he added, the Catholic charismatic renewal desires “that all of the realities of the Catholic Church return to a full awareness of the essential role of the Holy Spirit in the life of believers, and the beauty of the rediscovery of the gifts of the Spirit – the charisms – that permit us to live as sons of God in an extraordinary way for the good of the whole Church.”

Did you miss this?

 

[rwoehmke]

Interesting. I would venture that obits on the catholic Charismatic Movement are shall we say more than a bit premature. It has been, as I think I said up above, my experience that many of our stronger, orthodox members of my parish have been or are still involved in the Charismatic Renewal, Cursillo, Marriage Encounter, or Christ Renews His Parish. We had Renew so long ago, that I no longer have any notion as to its impact.

We have a Saturday morning prayer breakfast that has been going now for over 20 years. It sprang out of an idea spawned by the leader of our Charismatic Prayer group, which by the way withered and died after fifteen or twenty years… The men’s breakfast has spawned five deacons with one more on the way and has several retired priests who attend regularly. Membership has changed over the years with only two of us being charter members, but it consistently draws eight to fourteen attendees every Saturday morning with sometimes only four on holiday weekends.

Members who became Catechists for our high school kids usually outlast those who teach only during the years their child is attending.

 

[Cari]

have you ever noticed that the people who have the least experience with something are the first to have profound opinions that it is not real?

Well now, let’s be fair about this. I have never tried heroin, yet I have some pretty profound opinions about it. The “you’ve never experienced it, so you can’t have an opinion on it” argument just doesn’t fly.

To answer the OP, I think that the Pope has helped the process gain speed. It was dying out, he is helping the process.

Personally, I think this a great thing. The very fact that Pentecostalism is growing so rapidly is precisely because of the emotional and- how do I put this delicately?- flamboyant aspects of the denomination. I speak specifically about speaking in tongues, being slain in the Spirit, holy laughter, etc. etc. We live in a time where the culture at large expects to be constantly entertained. We have never-ending access to news, music, images, communications, etc, and the art of silence and stillness is something foreign to many of us.

“I’m not getting fed” has translated to, in every single case I’ve ever heard it uttered, to “I’m bored”. Pentecostal services lack many things, the “boring factor” being one of them.

So maybe, looking at the case of Hispanic men that was cited earlier, the problem isn’t of people not “being fed”, but rather a problem of a culturally relevant catechesis.

So as Catholics who expect to be “entertained” at Mass slowly drift away to Protestant denominations that will do just that, the faithful who remain with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal age and their numbers dwindle.

 

[Filius99993]

I just wondered what people’s thought were on why Charismatic Renewal groups are dying out across the world and why the ones that still exist are dominated by old people.

During the 70s-90s, and even at turn of the new century, Charismatic groups where blossoming numerically everywhere, with a notable number of young people. Nowadays young people and the Church as a whole seem more interested in Traditional aspects of the faith.

I wonder if this coincides with Traditional bent taken by the Holy Father and the more conservative liturgies that the Pope has introduced? Even at FUS, the university where Charismatic Renewal had such a strong hold seems to be getting more and more Traditional day by day.

Is the Charismatic Renewal really dying out?
What are people’s thoughts?
Has the Charismatic Renewal had its day?

Nah, it’s just that basically, no young people who would support the Charismatic Renewal are active enough to care enough to identify themselves as much. I am a Charismatic Reknewalist, but I’m also an anomaly. Just pray for us, please. I’m lonely!

 

[otjm]

angelusm;3519702:

Thus their practice was speaking in “unknown” tongues, something different from that recorded in the Acts. This is what is happens most of the time in the present day Charismatic movement
So I find firm scriptural evidence to reject what is happening today as to the speaking in tongues. .

Is this from information you have from other sources, or is it personal experience?

My personal experience with the Charismatic movement is that there are two forms of the Gift of Tongues - one is a personal gift, of personal prayer - of which St. Paul speaks, and the other is a gift of a tongue the person speaking has not learned, and is to be (and is) interpreted by others. So there has been exhibited the Gift of Tongues of which you seem to imply is not part of the current Charismatic groups.

As to healing I’m all for it:thumbsup: As to prophecy, I think these days that kind of falls under the general heading of private revelation unless it comes from an approved apparition such as Our Lady of Fatima etc.

Approved apparitions are also private revelation.

Hey if you think that the movement is genuine go for it:thumbsup: .

I don’t think it is however. I have a firm belief in the Catholic faith. I don’t think that anything the protestants bring to the table is necessarily going to help us in any way whatsoever and since most of them don’t particularly like the Catholic Church, things they do may actually hurt us.

Its food for thought anyway.

However, it appears that this did not come from Protestants, but from the Holy Spirit. It appears, rather, that you think that the Holy Spirit is not capable of acting through them.

 

[otjm]

Well now, let’s be fair about this. I have never tried heroin, yet I have some pretty profound opinions about it. The “you’ve never experienced it, so you can’t have an opinion on it” argument just doesn’t fly.

To answer the OP, I think that the Pope has helped the process gain speed. It was dying out, he is helping the process.

Great. But through this entire thread there has not been one thing named that the Pope has done that would in any way, shape or form impact it. Perhaps, instead of making irrelevant analogies, you could name one.

Personally, I think this a great thing. The very fact that Pentecostalism is growing so rapidly is precisely because of the emotional and- how do I put this delicately?- flamboyant aspects of the denomination. I speak specifically about speaking in tongues, being slain in the Spirit, holy laughter, etc. etc. We live in a time where the culture at large expects to be constantly entertained. We have never-ending access to news, music, images, communications, etc, and the art of silence and stillness is something foreign to many of us.

And it would appear that you have never ever been around a Charismatic group or been to one of the weekends. I don’t recall that saying the Rosary is a form of entertainment; nor the Mass (said more reverently than one will find in may parishes); perhaps this is what you are referring to as entertainment. The people I have met at such groups have been on fire for the Lord; are more willing than your average pew-warming Catholic to evangelize, and to witness publicly to their faith. Perhaps this is what you call entertainment (Look at that fool, acting like some street corner preacher! Catholics don’t act like that!)

“I’m not getting fed” has translated to, in every single case I’ve ever heard it uttered, to “I’m bored”. Pentecostal services lack many things, the “boring factor” being one of them.

Which really has nothing to do with the Charismatic movement; we are not discussing what goes on in the Pentecostal Churches, but the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

So as Catholics who expect to be “entertained” at Mass slowly drift away to Protestant denominations that will do just that, the faithful who remain with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal age and their numbers dwindle.

Maybe you have met Catholic Charismatics who expect to be “entertained” at Mass. The ones that I have met expect to be fed at Mass - fed with His Word, and his Body and Blood. and they have not “drifted away to Protestant denominations”.

 

[palmas85]

palmas85;3520579:

Is this from information you have from other sources, or is it personal experience?

My personal experience with the Charismatic movement is that there are two forms of the Gift of Tongues - one is a personal gift, of personal prayer - of which St. Paul speaks, and the other is a gift of a tongue the person speaking has not learned, and is to be (and is) interpreted by others. So there has been exhibited the Gift of Tongues of which you seem to imply is not part of the current Charismatic groups.

Approved apparitions are also private revelation.

Hey if you think that the movement is genuine go for it:thumbsup: .

However, it appears that this did not come from Protestants, but from the Holy Spirit. It appears, rather, that you think that the Holy Spirit is not capable of acting through them

.

Obviously you misread what I said. Thats OK:thumbsup:

I’ll explain, so that maybe you can understand, hows that?

Nothing at all in the Charismatic movement “looks” like it came from the Holy Spirit, neither in the Pentecostal branches or the Catholic. In fact it "looks"as if it came from somewhere totally different. despite what the devotees of the experience say. Yes the experience. An endorphin rush that can be really great or barely noticible, but as far as I see it nothing more and nothing less.

In order to understand this you have to accept one thing. If you don’t accept that one thing you will never understand.

The Catholic Church** IS** the one true Church and it has the FULLNESS of truth and of the faith,

The protestant communities are not true churches, in fact they are not churches at all, they do not have the fullness of faith and are extremely poor imitations of what the Catholic Church is.

Now you either believe that to be true or you don’t. There is really no middle road. Now I’m pretty sure that the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ and the Father are aware of this. I don’t think it is something that Catholics made up over the years to justify their existence. If they did then we are in a really sad situation.

So being that the Catholic Church is the one true Church and the other groups really poor imitations, why would the Holy Spirit use them to reach out to us? It is completely illogical and makes no sense whatsoever. I never said He was incapable, I said I don’t think He would do it.

Hey I’m open, if you can give me one good rational explanation why the Holy Spirit would use those who reject a good portion of the truth in their worship to reach out to the true Church, then I’ll consider the possibility that he manifestation that the charismatics have may have some basis in fact.

Otherwise, they will remain exactly what they have been since the days of Montanus. Attention getting gimmicks designed to show that the users of these alleged gifts have the answers and the truth and the rest of us don’t.

My opinion.

 

[Cari]

Great. But through this entire thread there has not been one thing named that the Pope has done that would in any way, shape or form impact it. Perhaps, instead of making irrelevant analogies, you could name one.

Ok- how about the motu proprio? The return to the Latin Mass has given many people the spiritual food they were missing from the happy clappy Masses found at many parishes.

And it would appear that you have never ever been around a Charismatic group or been to one of the weekends.

And it would appear that you have been following me around for years and are qualified to make such a statement?

I don’t recall that saying the Rosary is a form of entertainment;

Nor I.
However, the Charismatics I’ve been around to say a Rosary with (Yes! I’ve got first hand experience! Wow! May I form an opinion now?) have spent so much time between decades with prayers to the Holy Spirit, prayers binding myself, my children, my grandchildren (etc. etc.) to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and, I kid you not, a version of “Praise You, Jesus, Praise You” sung to the “Let’s Go (Sport Team Name), Let’s Go!” chant you hear at sporting events that it was clear that they WERE treating the Rosary as an entertaining event- or at least one where they could hear their voice as much as possible.

nor the Mass (said more reverently than one will find in may parishes);

Again, not ones I’ve witnessed. But it is obvious that I’ve had a much different experience with the Charismatic movement than you have.

perhaps this is what you are referring to as entertainment. The people I have met at such groups have been on fire for the Lord; are more willing than your average pew-warming Catholic to evangelize, and to witness publicly to their faith. Perhaps this is what you call entertainment (Look at that fool, acting like some street corner preacher! Catholics don’t act like that!)

Charismatics I’ve met have asked me if I’ve “accepted Jesus Christ as Personal Lord and Savior” and refuse my somewhat stunned answer that yes, I do- every single time I receive Holy Communion. They’ve insisted that the Holy Spirit told them that certain political candidates are going to bring about the end of the world. They’ve tried to lay hands on people who have clearly told them they are under obedience to a priest to NOT have lay people pray over them, responding, “It’s probably a LIBERAL priest, you don’t have to listen to them.” So, in short, I’ve never seen this holy and reverent expression of Charismatic Catholicism. I’ve seen Pentecostalism (and worse) in disguise.

Which really has nothing to do with the Charismatic movement; we are not discussing what goes on in the Pentecostal Churches, but the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

If you go back and read my post, you’ll see that my statements about Pentecostal churches were appropo given a previous poster’s comments about Catholics leaving the Church.

Maybe you have met Catholic Charismatics who expect to be “entertained” at Mass. The ones that I have met expect to be fed at Mass - fed with His Word, and his Body and Blood. and they have not “drifted away to Protestant denominations”.

Yup, that’s my point. You’ve clearly met a different sort of Charismatic than the ones I have. But you can’t tell me that MY experiences don’t reflect on the movement.

 

[Indyann]

Otherwise, they will remain exactly what they have been since the days of Montanus. Attention getting gimmicks designed to show that the users of these alleged gifts have the answers and the truth and the rest of us don’t.

My opinion.

Well, perhaps if the results of the Congress are made public, we will all have a better idea of how to apply charisms to build up the Body of the Church:thumbsup: