Has the #MeToo movement become a witch-hunt to a significant degree?

[Theo520]

Charlie did abuse his position of power with staffers.

Now you seem to be acknowledging that Al’s Dem colleagues did make him resign, so there is progress with you.

You still haven’t illustrated how Al abused his position of power though.

 

[Xantippe]

As for Aziz Ansari, I really do not care if people have a tough time setting up a one-night stand because of the danger that their date might make an accusation the next day out of “buyer’s remorse.”

Indeed. Fornicating is harder than it used to be–boo-freaking-hoo!

I also don’t buy the idea that there cannot be a “warm atmosphere” at work when people refrain from making sexual remarks or from having their hands on each other when they are not very certain it is OK with the other person.

Yes. My husband is plenty warm with coworkers, but doesn’t like to touch people and doesn’t want to be touched at work.

If all you are saying is that the standard that the accuser can expect to be always believed is even worse than the standard where the accuser is never believed, I 100% agree that it is just as bad. As soon as someone gets the idea that he or she has carte blanche to bear false witness, yes, there are going to be innocent victims. I can totally agree that we need a set of expectations that do not have “always believe anyone claiming to be a victim” as any part of them. It is just as dangerous as “always believe the guy who says he did nothing.”

Right.

 

[PetraG]

Charlie did abuse his position of power with staffers.

Now you seem to be acknowledging that Al’s Dem colleagues did make him resign, so there is progress with you.

You still haven’t illustrated how Al abused his position of power though.

Charlie Rose did not just sexually harrass staffers, and neither did Matt Lauer.

Well, yes, Franken resigned because he judged there were plenty of votes to expel him, yes. That, and he’s stood on the pretense that he has more respect for women than he has shown. Take your pick: he didn’t want to wait for a public expulsion or he didn’t want to be a gigantic hypocrite…could be one, the other or both. He tried for a mulligan, it wasn’t coming, he chose to see the writing on the wall and leave. There were not enough votes to remove him on the say-so of just one party, so if there was pressure it was necessarily bipartisan.

When you get away with something because you have a certain status even though that is not actually a right of a person with that status, you have abused your position. There was a time when women did not report men who took these kinds of liberties because they were afraid what the men and their supporters would do to them in retaliation.

Would the USO sound guy get away with what Franken did? No. Some fan who wasn’t a star? No. He abused his position. He did what a typical man would not be allowed to do but he could because he was Al Franken, even though a man in his position ought to have a higher standard, if anything.

Here is an example of another lawmaker who refuses to resign:

Sen. Jeff Kruse to avoid Capitol during conduct review, will not resign

The call for Oregon's state Sen. Jeff Kruse to resign grew louder in the first day after the release of an investigation detailing sexual harassment.

www.statesmanjournal.com

This guy had been warned to cut it out by the legislative officials, there are enough accusations to fill a 51 page report outlining all of them–some of which come from fellow state lawmakers and some of which were caught on official legislative videos!–and yet he refuses to resign.

Don’t tell me that Al Franken was “forced” to resign, then. If he were stubborn enough, he’d still be in there.

It is even possible that Jeff Kruse will be censured and not expelled and even possible that his fellow lawmakers won’t do anything at all. Time will tell.

 

[Xantippe]

Only if the behavior persisted after being called out should extra steps be taken.

The problem is that giving a hand slap discourages other individuals from stepping forward and speaking up.

The Dems engaged in a witch hunt, hoping they could turn the moral outrage against Trump. Unfortunately, most of the witches they could find were in their party.

I don’t think that covers the chronology well. Things started with Weinstein, not in the political sphere.

Where I agree with you is that Trump being president created the circumstances where Democratic party leadership could be made to care about this stuff. Had Hillary Clinton (wife of Bill Clinton and associate of Harvey Weinstein) been president, there would have been a much higher motivation to continue hushing things up. Trump being president helped open the floodgates.

There’s been a lot of belated regret from liberal writers with regard to Bill Clinton and how they covered his activities.

 

[Xantippe]

It is an extremely high honor and privilege to serve as a Senator.

Yes, there are only 100 senators. It’s not too much to ask that they have mastered basic civility and a kindergarten-level ability to keep their hands to themselves.

 

[Theo520]

The problem is that giving a hand slap discourages other individuals from stepping forward and speaking up.

I’m talking about non-criminal behavior. I think a hand slap and some moral outrage on what happened to them will encourage more to step forward.

Expecting resignations for behavior that isn’t criminal or against terms of employment is short lived, it will only happen for the duration of this witch hunt.

I don’t think that covers the chronology well. Things started with Weinstein, not in the political sphere.

Where I agree with you is that Trump being president created the circumstances where Democratic party leadership could be made to care about this stuff. Had Hillary Clinton (wife of Bill Clinton and associate of Harvey Weinstein) been president, there would have been a much higher motivation to continue hushing things up. Trump being president helped open the floodgates.

There’s been a lot of belated regret from liberal writers with regard to Bill Clinton and how they covered his activities.

I didn’t present a chronology, did I?

Yea, we agree on something
Even without trying Trump is shaking things up and causing some much needed evolution on this problem.

As I said in an earlier post, I just want to see more proactive steps, like how Congress has made it against the rules for Congress to ‘have relations’ with their staff and how any personal settlements will be paid by the congressperson and not a slush fund.

I don’t know, maybe private companies are now adding stringent morality clauses to terms of employment. I’m curious but not informed.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m talking about non-criminal behavior. I think a hand slap and some moral outrage on what happened to them will encourage more to step forward.

Really, why?

You step forward, you take the hit to your reputation and privacy by speaking up, and there’s a good chance that nothing will happen. That’s very discouraging. And then we get to have the conversation about, why do people keep silent? Why only speak now?

Because 20 years ago (or even 3 years ago), nobody wanted to hear it.

PetraG makes a very solid case that the senate had the right to expel Franken.

As I said in an earlier post, I just want to see more proactive steps, like how Congress has made it against the rules for Congress to ‘have relations’ with their staff and how any personal settlements will be paid by the congressperson and not a slush fund.

That is very good.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Edmundus1581:

So, it’s pats on the back for men, nothing for women. And then they’ll complain that they feel left out of the team, and that men are scared of them.

You say, “Great work Karen! Keep it up.” It ain’t rocket science.

Just following up as a courtesy, since this is a reply to mine. Firstly, the back-post of mine somehow got lost in submission, and then surfaced hours later while I was away from CAF. I didn’t get a chance to check the wording. While it was gone, I re-wrote it.

Now, “Great work Karen, keep it up” is the sort of affirmation one might give on a regular basis, to “good”, but not “great” work.

My work has been in engineering projects where the problems are often unquantifiable, and meeting deadlines is always gruelling. When a solution “pops out”, or a deadline is met, it’s a moment of exhilaration for the team. It is quite normal for men to slap each other, “high five”, and so on. “Great work, Karen” would be lame. Hence a moment of confusion when a woman’s achievement is the centre of attention. No touching? Well, yes, clearly that’s the rule now. These days there’s no confusion. Just don’t touch. My anecdote was from 15 years ago.

I have had women hug me in the workplace, as a gesture of non-sexual affection. I welcomed it.

This clip is from The Imitation Game (2016), when the German code is finally cracked. Here the engineer who cracked the code is “assaulted” by a colleague.

We also see sports teams “setting an example”, with butt slapping, bear hugs, etc. This is just an extreme of the emotions that are felt on other male project teams.

Or, look at a political party room on election night, when the announcement comes through that they’ve won. Hugs and slaps all round.

 

[Lea101]

I think you’re being deliberately obtuse, that or you probably didn’t read the replies regarding to this.

You basically have to read the room. If you know your colleagues are comfortable with touch and it’s the norm (on top of the fact that you do so with everyone, male and female) then go ahead.

Women know when men are being unnecessarily ‘friendly’ to them (e.g. A male colleague who only gets touchy with females). A lot of us don’t actually mind not getting a hug from someone we don’t know or particularly care about. We don’t cry in our beds because we didn’t get a pat on the back, lol

 

[Xantippe]

Here’s a big problem I see with the SuperLuigi/StarshipTrooper take on MeToo.

You guys belong to a movement or tendency that is entirely reactive with regard to questions of sexual abuse, rape and consent.

That movement does not have a well-worked out take on dating, sexual ethics, consent, sexual abuse and rape. It’s very ad hoc and reactive, with the basic principles being something along the following lines:

–liberals are bad
–feminists are bad
–whatever liberals and feminists like must be bad
–dating ought to be like hockey, with the woman being tasked with being the goalie (despite being generally the smallest, weakest person on the ice)
–also, if anything bad happens, it’s her fault
–women should accept male leadership
–except if he wants to have sex–it’s complicated
–rape is bad, but it almost never happens, and whatever happened was probably your fault and women are usually lying
–why didn’t you report right away?
–I already know what rape is–it’s something bad that a nice guy like me would never be guilty of
–I know everything I need to know about avoiding raping women without anybody ever spending a whole 5 minutes talking to me about it.
–waiting for clear consent is unrealistic and unreasonable
–non-virgin women are garbage

 

[Lea101]

And there are some things that women don’t mind being left out on. Butt slapping for example…

 

[Lea101]

Kind of reminds me about how they (the typical red pillers, not them) believed Taylor Swift was lying about her sexual assault despite going through a trial when Fox News decided to give the guy air time to talk about how she lied and about MeToo having false allegations. They don’t have consistent standards when it comes to stuff like this. And it’s extremely easy to manipulate them. They are like sheep!

It’s very emotional. Not logical like they think they are tbh.

 

[Edmundus1581]

I think you’re being deliberately obtuse, that or you probably didn’t read the replies regarding to this.

No, I’m not being obtuse. I’m explaining why “Great work, Karen, keep it up”, which you proposed, can be both lame and treating a woman very differently to a man.

And, yes, I’ve only glanced at the other replies. This all came in overnight while I was asleep. I’ve responded only to a notification. Such is the best I can do in the time available.

And there are some things that women don’t mind being left out on. Butt slapping for example…

https://aws1.discourse-cdn.com/catholic/original/1X/70226bfcd6fe06179ed26d78d10f0c4d6fdcda6b.gif

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

I have had women hug me in the workplace, as a gesture of non-sexual affection. I welcomed it.

There’s no harm in hugging someone if they’ve previously indicated that they’re comfortable with physical affirmation (as initiating a hug with you would indicate). It becomes a problem when you start to make assumptions. Remember, if an underling is uncomfortable with being touched, they’re most likely not going to feel free to say so: this goes for both men and women. There are plenty of men who don’t like being touched by their bosses either.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

No, I’m not being obtuse. I’m explaining why “Great work, Karen, keep it up”, which you proposed, can be both lame, and treating a woman very differently to a ma

She didn’t propose that. I did.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

Hence a moment of confusion when a woman’s achievement is the centre of attention. No touching?

Offer a fist bump or a high-five. Again, it ain’t rocket science.

 

[Lea101]

My advice to all men is: if you don’t know her well enough to know if she would not like it, DON’T DO IT. Like seriously, why make unusual physical contact if you can’t tell if you’re going to get slapped with a conflict?

A lot of guys here like to give 'but…'s but honestly stop. “But spontaneity, but this, but that”. Enough women have already said they would prefer some sort of consent first (I.e. Leaning in-slowly- first so she gets a heads up that you’re about to kiss her). The enthusiastic verbal ‘yes’ is silly, but you still shouldn’t go for it if the women does not give you any indication that she wants a kiss. Or if she agrees in a very uncomfortable manner. (eg “Can I kiss you” “um…okay… :/” or even just staying frozen on the spot, which you’re more likely to see with vulnerable women or women in subordinate positions).

Guys don’t give themselves enough credit. They’re smart enough to read basic body language, I’m sure of it.

 

[graciew]

No, I’m not being obtuse. I’m explaining why “Great work, Karen, keep it up”, which you proposed, can be both lame, and treating a woman very differently to a man.

Not necessarily. Perhaps Karen appreciates different things than say Paul or Alex.
One gets to know people…
Here is an anecdote. Before moving to live and work in the US for what ended being several years,we were given the ex-patriate handbook with a whole lot of explanations/and recommend dations if all kinds to understand and move comfortably in a different culture ,better adapting and integrating. Very positive and helpful

Personal space is one that we have to exercise until we make it a habit for Latin Americans in general as it is not having the clutch in the car
Though I had travelled countless times,my husband gave me a piece of advice: do not expect to be allowed first by men when exiting an elevator or a door. Do not take it badly. Some women really get offended if you allow them first.
.
Well, call it what you want,but I was allowed before a man with the same gentleness as usual, and everything continued very normally and never found this to deal with during our stay and we travelled much also. Neither in the street,at work or anywhere.

And as far as personal space which I obviously respected,it was the ladies who knew me and knew that a pat ,some simple hug,and that sort of little demonstration meant to me,it was them who kindly approached me with this gentleness and if it was an effort,for the heart of mine,it never ever showed. On the contrary. And how one appreciated gentleness and kindness.

So it is hard to believe,that in good faith,one can say that most people cannot grasp what is a cordial and gentle gesture,so as to say one will never ever hire men again or women again without leaving most of us puzzled at what sort of environment or personalities surround the person who found this was the only alternative.

It wasn t in the least our experience while there at least. On the contrary.

 

[Theo520]

Really, why?

You step forward, you take the hit to your reputation and privacy by speaking up, and there’s a good chance that nothing will happen. That’s very discouraging. And then we get to have the conversation about, why do people keep silent? Why only speak now?

Because 20 years ago (or even 3 years ago), nobody wanted to hear it.

PetraG makes a very solid case that the senate had the right to expel Franken.

Are you suggesting that people should be fired when there is just an allegation of what one thought was ‘inappropriate’ but there was no criminal case?

I never suggested the Senate didn’t have the right to expel Franken, but that would have at least followed some due process with a review by the ethics committee. He wasn’t given due process and there wasn’t even an allegation of a crime.

 

[Theo520]

Really, why?

Here is a real example.

Should she be fired because she got drunk and made a pass?
It was highly inappropriate, but no crime was committed.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/08/cristina-garcia-california-metoo-398985

Personally, I might choose not to vote for her but I don’t think she should be fired unless the behavior continued, was serial in nature. I expect she will learn her lesson from this public rebuke.