Has the #MeToo movement become a witch-hunt to a significant degree?

[F_Marturana]

I mentioned earlier the Nassar victim’s father who committed suicide once he realized that Nassar had molested his daughter and who had spent years convinced that his daughter was a liar.

I did not know that part of the story. Very tragic.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

So, it’s pats on the back for men, nothing for women. And then they’ll complain that they feel left out of the team, and that men are scared of them.

You say, “Great work Karen! Keep it up.” It ain’t rocket science.

 

[Xantippe]

The point is, if you’re going to talk about how you’re wanting to treat women like men in the workplace, it sounds rather hollow if you don’t actually treat men that way.

Most men don’t hug each other in the workplace and talk about how good their new haircut looks. So not doing that to women in the workplace isn’t exactly leaving them out.

(Actual romantic relationships are different - but that comment was in the context of how men should treat women, especially subordinates, at work.)

Take for example Joe Biden–he doesn’t do the Creepy Uncle Joe routine with boys and men.

(For those unfamiliar with Joe Biden, he has a habit of sticking his face in strange women’s hair, standing behind them with his hands on their shoulders, being generally handsy, making creepy remarks to teen girls, and doing all sorts of things that he’d never do with boys or men. There are lots of internet examples if you google “Joe Biden inappropriate” on google image search.)

Edited to add: I was just checking in with my husband last night to verify his feelings about being touched in the workplace. As I expected, he found Edmundus’s back pat story horrifying. A lot of people of both sexes do not wish to be touched by people they are not intimate with.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

There are lots of internet examples if you google “Joe Biden inappropriate” on google image search.

I just did. Wooh boy…

 

[Xantippe]

Male friendship in the LA workplace. (And no, they are not romantically involved.) This is the norm here. For women, too. And men and women. No one gets upset about a hug or a kiss.

Given that LA is ground zero for an ongoing sex scandal, maybe not the best example?

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

A lot of people of both sexes do not wish to be touched by people they are not intimate with.

Right, and the fact that they’re underlings likely discourages them from voicing any discomfort.

 

[Xantippe]

I just did. Wooh boy…

His signature move is standing behind the woman (who is probably meeting him for the first time), hands on her shoulders, sniffing or nuzzling her hair.

EWWW!

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t care about posting history. I go with what is front of me.

At this point, it’s best not to continue this conversion about another user.

SST clarified that he has turned over a new leaf and I congratulated him.

However, as a general rule, a guy who believes that false rape claims are an epidemic is being foolish (as well as immoral) if he pursues casual sex with a variety of different women that he doesn’t know very well. As you can see from SST’s own links, false rape claims have a very close association with casual sex.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Given that LA is ground zero for an ongoing sex scandal, maybe not the best example?

Think maybe that’s Washington, DC, given the new administration and the recent resignations over sexual misconduct. Our current president seems proud of being a predator.

Hollywood has celebrity scandals, but we non-celebrities out here are more faithful than most in the east. We just don’t get upset about the little stuff, like a friendly hug.

Women are often the aggressors. I do some PR for Wayne Brady. If you’ve ever seen his show, almost every woman “chosen” wants to give him a hug, whether he likes it or not. Only a few ask first. And I know the same thing happens to Drew Carey. Wayne showed a clip of a woman who threw herself at him so hard, she knocked him down, almost off the stage.

A singer I know has women launch themselves at him while he’s on stage. Security has to remove them. After the show at his Meet-and-Greets, almost every woman grabs him in a “bear hug.” One woman asked if she could kiss him on the lips. (At least she asked.) He laughed, but said “no.”

Out here, more women are sexually aggressive than men. There are women aggressors all over. This isn’t something that’s limited to men.

There are male victims as well. Victims of overly-aggressive women. Maybe they should start a #MeToo movement. They won’t, though. Males tend to not play the victim card.

The topic is: Has the movement become a witch hunt? Yes, it has. And the constant, “Oh, someone touched me inappropriately 30 years ago” is making the rest of the country say, “So, what?”

 

[Theo520]

Except for Congress changing their rules on ‘having relations’ with staff, I’ve seen very little in the way of constructive response to this issue. This disappoints me.

I’m delighted the people who were breaking actual laws have been fired or resigned.

I’m bothered that people like Al Franken are also losing their jobs. They deserve some moral outrage and public censure, but not a witch hunt and firing. The majority are in this group. They deserve the equivalent of HR training and the opportunity not to offend again.

 

[Xantippe]

And the constant, “Oh, someone touched me inappropriately 30 years ago” is making the rest of the country say, “So, what?”

That’s not what happened in Alabama.

Roy Moore had a multitude of that sort of accusation from women who had been teenagers at the time. Despite living in a solidly Republican state where Trump won 62% of the vote and , Roy Moore wound up with 48.4% of the vote, compared to his Democratic opponent’s 49.9%.

Alabama Election Results: Doug Jones Defeats Roy Moore in U.S. Senate Race – Election Results 2017 – The New York Times

Claiming fraud,

“The Moore campaign’s main argument was that high Democratic turnout and low support for Moore in the state’s most populous, urban counties resulted in an “implausible, unexplained 35 percent drop in votes for Roy Moore relative to the vote share of Republican Party straight-line votes.””

The “implausible, unexplained” drop was almost certainly due to a large percentage of Alabama voters deciding Roy Moore was a creep that they did not want representing them.

Normal people do care.

 

[starshiptrooper]

College educated =/= feminist.

As for my lifestyle, it has never changed. Your assumptions have though. Make of that what you will.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m bothered that people like Al Franken are also losing their jobs. They deserve some moral outrage and public censure, but not a witch hunt and firing. The majority are in this group. They deserve the equivalent of HR training and the opportunity not to offend again.

A few thoughts:

1. Al Franken is 66. He’s not a 22-year-old intern.
2. Being a senator is a position of immense power and influence with a six year term–senators get used to feeling untouchable. It’s very unlikely that HR training is going to have an impact on somebody his age and with his power.
3. The senate has historically been home to a lot of pervy guys. Strom Thurmond, for example, served for 48 years and was famous for groping and randomly kissing women. I once took a class on Washington reporting back in the 90s, and one of the tips shared by a female journalist was, never, ever get in an elevator with Strom Thurmond.
4. It’s right for Democrats to put the reputation and future of their party ahead of loyalty to particular individuals, and I would heartily encourage Republicans to start doing the same thing. There are a lot of smart guys and gals out there who look good in a suit and who aren’t jailbait-chasers, gropers and harassers. Let’s find them!

 

[ConstantLearner]

As for my lifestyle, it has never changed. Your assumptions have though. Make of that what you will.

I’m in the same boat as you - and happy to be, if I may say so - as I do believe I’ve just been told I’m not normal. (Actually, I’m not, so I don’t mind. Wouldn’t mind if I were.)

 

[ConstantLearner]

Normal people do care.

I would say a great many “normal” people do not care. Jones barely defeated Moore. The vote was close to 50-50. Certainly all the people who voted for Moore are not abnormal.

Roy Moore is a serial predator. I have no sympathy for him at all, and I’m glad he was defeated. However, the kind of thing you’ve been talking about does not rise to “Roy Moore standards” of vulgarity and illegality.

 

[ConstantLearner]

I’m bothered that people like Al Franken are also losing their jobs. They deserve some moral outrage and public censure, but not a witch hunt and firing. The majority are in this group. They deserve the equivalent of HR training and the opportunity not to offend again.

I agree with you on this.

People like Roy Moore, yes, glad he was defeated. But the vast majority, as you’ve stated, are not exhibiting behavior like Moore’s. I’m not in favor of them losing their jobs and facing a huge lifelong negative impact.

 

[Xantippe]

College educated =/= feminist.

As for my lifestyle, it has never changed. Your assumptions have though. Make of that what you will.

I was responding to someone (Super Luigi?) who said to avoid college-educated women entirely. Hence, I was pointing out that that is an impractical plan if 2/3 of new US mothers have some college, if college-educated women are the ones not having children out of wedlock and who are producing better results with children. Also, college-educated women are more likely to marry and less likely to divorce.

In some of your old postings, you were claiming a lot of sexual experience (in fact basing some of your opinions about sex and consent on personal experience) and championing the idea of men enjoying unmarried sex, while also stating that if you married, it needed to be a virgin bride. In fact, I believe you even used the charming phrase, “no hymen, no diamond.”

 

[starshiptrooper]

No, I just never contradicted your assumptions, because my sex life is none of your beeswax. Besides, I am prescient enough to know that you would use it against me no matter what.

 

[Lea101]

Oh loooooorrrrdd.

This is to no one in particular, but anti feminists and feminists love to overreact…and claim that it’s only the other that does it.

 

[PetraG]

Nowhere did I call you deplorable.

Please point out what I wrote that was hysterical. I did not say you routinely commit sexual assault. I asked why, if you don’t, you are complaining that there isn’t “due process” instead of the person doing the touching and making the comments having the responsibility of making sure their venture into the more-personal realm is welcome. As for Aziz Ansari, I really do not care if people have a tough time setting up a one-night stand because of the danger that their date might make an accusation the next day out of “buyer’s remorse.”

Tell me why, as Catholics, we should not rightfully warn people that there are dangers to both their reputations AND their eternal souls when they rush into physical intimacies that are not appropriate to their state in life in the first place. Tell me why we shouldn’t be discouraging men and women from workplace behaviors that we know lead to fornication and adultery with people met at work. Don’t respond as an American who wants liberties and no boundaries. Respond as a Catholic who has concern for immortal souls.

I also don’t buy the idea that there cannot be a “warm atmosphere” at work when people refrain from making sexual remarks or from having their hands on each other when they are not very certain it is OK with the other person.

This forum has had many stories from people whose spouses have had an emotional or physical affair at work. That is damaging to marriages. I don’t have any problem with work boundaries that are more strict than not. There are lots of good reasons to have them.

If all you are saying is that the standard that the accuser can expect to be always believed is even worse than the standard where the accuser is never believed, I 100% agree that it is just as bad. As soon as someone gets the idea that he or she has carte blanche to bear false witness, yes, there are going to be innocent victims. I can totally agree that we need a set of expectations that do not have “always believe anyone claiming to be a victim” as any part of them. It is just as dangerous as “always believe the guy who says he did nothing.” We all know homes where “believe the one claiming to be a victim” was Mom’s rule, and what it produced was children who learn they can get at each other by lying to Mom’s face. That is also a near occasion of serious sin, yes, since we are tallking about false witness that could ruin someone’s career.