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Xantippe
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As I understood her, PetraG wasn’t talking about due process, but about appropriate social behavior.
Has the #MeToo movement become a witch-hunt to a significant degree?
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Xantippe
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I’d specify that I prefer the kind of love without surprise smooches from strange men.
As St. Paul told Timothy in 1 Timothy 5, “1 Do not rebuke an older man but exhort him as you would a father; treat younger men like brothers, 2 older women like mothers, younger women like sisters, in all purity.”
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DarkLight
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Right. It’s like what I was trying to say - if you routinely find that women are upset by your approach, you should probably reconsider your approach. That’s not some sort of legal maxim, but a basic rule of civil behavior. If women say they feel harassed by your approach, it’s better to consider whether you’re harassing women than to decide there’s something wrong with the majority of modern women.
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HarryStotle
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Why is the “stuff you want to do, instead” assumed to be bad or, at least, worse than the stuff being applauded by the “by people around you” and their wishes?HarryStotle:
You don’t have to be superficial. You can be actually respectful by abiding by the boundaries the people around you set because you really do respect them and their wishes, rather than just doing it because you’re afraid you can’t get away with doing the stuff you want to do, instead.
The “wishes” of people, in general, aren’t necessarily of a higher quality or morally superior to one’s own merely because they come from those other people. People can be quite mediocre and for the most part don’t spend a great deal of time thinking about the motivations they have for doing what they do and expecting others to similar kinds of things. This is particularly true in our conformist PC culture where impressing the “people around you” seems an incessant impulse.
Having a clearer view of what is most good and most valuable does not appear to be a high priority among many in our society. I don’t feel any respect for the wishes of people who simply want others to do what they wish merely because they wish it.
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Xantippe
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Some thoughts:
–Modern men (specifically religious conservative men) often have a myriad of contradictory expectations: a clean home and homeschooling and lots of home cooking! homeschooling a large family and producing income! lots of babies and a thin wife! a virgin bride who never says no! all of the above on practically no income! always putting the husband first while having a large family! looking nice while having no money to spend on clothes and personal care!
–The conservative religious ideals for women are often more like a wish list composed by a 6-year-old than an actionable plan.
–It would not surprise me if some modern women have contradictory expectations–including of themselves.
–However, it is also true that many modern women have very reasonable expectations.
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DarkLight
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Here’s the thing: we’re talking about activities that of necessity involve 2 people. If you want to have a conversation with me, but I don’t want to have a conversation with you, then my wishes override because you don’t get to make me interact with you. If you want to go on a date with me, and I don’t want to go on a date with you, I get to not go on a date with you. That’s just a general principle for civil behavior. If I say no, I don’t want to go out with you, and you keep bothering me to make sure I have a “good enough” reason to not go out with you, that sends the message that you don’t really think whether I want to or not matters - and you’re harassing me at that point.
Really, I think if we were talking about anything but romantic activity this would be perfectly clear. Imagine instead of a man and a woman, you were dealing with two men, one of whom wants to have a conversation and the other does not. Would it be reasonable for the first one to keep pushing at the second because he wishes to engage in a conversation?
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Xantippe
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In the context of this thread, we’re talking specifically about respecting others’ personal boundaries concerning their bodies and personal space.
And no, you don’t get to decide that stuff for other people.
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HarryStotle
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Provided those “other people” are consistent, reasonable, and don’t promote their “personal boundaries” as inclusive of their right to compel the speech and behaviour of others. Or as a right to defame and slander after the fact merely because their “personal boundaries” have shifted tectonically. Personal responsibility should not get left in the ditch merely because someone has decided years later that they were a victim when they were, in fact, at least partially responsible.
The incapacity of many, including some posters here, to deal adequately with the place of personal responsibility from both sides is the determining factor of what will come out of this “movement.”
Just to set a baseline for expectations regarding social media campaigns…
Je suis Charlie roared across the world following the Jihadist attack on the French satirical newspaper three years ago. Not a peep on the January 7th anniversary of the attack. In fact, not only newspapers completely stay away from criticisms of Islamic jihadists, but government’s like Canada’s are framing any critique of Islam as Islamophobia and looking at legal penalties, and police forces across Europe are reticent to make arrests for fear of being called racist.
If #metoo is as successful as Je suis Charlie, women had better hope there are still a few real men around that haven’t gone the way of all the would-be Charlies.
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Xantippe
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What is this “both sides”? Do you mean that we need to be even-handed between pedophiles and victims of molestation and between rapists and rape victims?
What are the “two sides” that you envision?
It’s not men versus women, because as we were discussing earlier, around 8% of US boys are victims of molestation, and men are harmed by the fact that their wife or daughters were victimized. I mentioned earlier the Nassar victim’s father who committed suicide once he realized that Nassar had molested his daughter and who had spent years convinced that his daughter was a liar. You may have seen the video from recently, where the father of three of Nassar’s victims charged him in court and had to be subdued by several deputies.
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Edmundus1581
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I once had a young female under my supervision, and at the end of a month long task she showed me her completed work at her computer. She had done a superb job in the time, and at the end I wanted to give her a pat on the back, and say “Well done”, as I would with a man. Instead, I went back to my computer and sent her an email titled “Virtual pat on the back”. I got no response. So, it’s pats on the back for men, nothing for women. And then they’ll complain that they feel left out of the team, and that men are scared of them.
Since then I’ve become more “I don’t give a damn” about these things, except where it may threaten my livelihood. I’m actually more inclined to compliment a woman’s new hair style, or notice that she’s been away, than I was previously. It’s always been appreciated. If one time I get a complaint I’ll just say “Sue me”. Maybe she will. So be it.
If however, I still had a wite and children to support then I’d be walking a tightrope through life, and treating every women strictly “by the rules”. No pats, no compliments - business only, and with a fake smile.
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Xantippe
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Does everybody actually like pats on the back from their boss?
I’m like–EEEK!
I know my husband would hate having another man touching him.
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Xantippe
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My husband supervises a number of women and doesn’t seem to struggle as much as you do.
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HarryStotle
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Check the opening post. A survey, remember? Yes or No, the #metoo movement has become a witch hunt?HarryStotle:
What is this “both sides”? Do you mean that we need to be even-handed between pedophiles and victims of molestation and between rapists and rape victims?
What are the “two sides” that you envision?
So, are you saying that those who are accused by someone, …anyone,… are, by that fact, a rapist or molester and anyone who says, “Yes, it is becoming a witch hunt to some degree,” is necessarily a supporter and accomplice of rape and molestation?
Is that how YOU “envision” the two sides?
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DarkLight
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No, but we are envisioning that if someone says “I don’t want to be touched”, and the other person says “I want to touch this person,” we don’t have to be even-handed or try to find a compromise. There are a lot of people who seek to find how the woman is “responsible” as a way to diminish male responsibility. There are a lot of guys out there who think their right to try to get a date trumps a woman’s right to not deal with him. I’ve had far too many interrogations as to exactly why I didn’t want to go out with a guy and whether it was a good enough reason in his mind to not have learned that lesson. (Heck, I’ve heard “I’m sorry you were assaulted, but you know you agreed to be alone with a man, so we have to consider how both sides are responsible.”)
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Xantippe
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No, not really.
I was reading you as saying that we need to assign “personal responsibility” to victims of rape and sexual abuse. That’s how I understood, “The incapacity of many, including some posters here, to deal adequately with the place of personal responsibility from both sides is the determining factor of what will come out of this “movement.””
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Xantippe
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It’s also true that I am going to be very leery of anybody who disregards personal boundaries or who will not accept the idea that consent is very, very important.
I don’t think it’s very difficult to find examples of that on this thread.
And the irony here is that it’s not uncommon to have those beliefs (that other people’s personal boundaries are meaningless and consent is optional) combined with a desire for/feeling of entitlement for a virgin bride of his own. The irony(for those of you in the back rows) is that it’s a heck of a lot easier to preserve one’s virginity around people who respect personal boundaries and who value consent, and so a guy who wants a virgin bride ought to love boundaries and consent.
I don’t think it’s very difficult to find examples of that on this thread.
And the irony here is that it’s not uncommon to have those beliefs (that other people’s personal boundaries are meaningless and consent is optional) combined with a desire for/feeling of entitlement for a virgin bride of his own. The irony(for those of you in the back rows) is that it’s a heck of a lot easier to preserve one’s virginity around people who respect personal boundaries and who value consent, and so a guy who wants a virgin bride ought to love boundaries and consent.
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ConstantLearner
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So now men who are comfortable with other men are, by default, at least to you, homosexual? To be seen as heterosexual they must not have any friendly contact with a man but be all over women? But you don’t like that, either. Then they’re potential rapists. You’ve put men in a no-win position.
Not every hug, kiss, hand-holding gesture has sexual overtones.
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DarkLight
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The point is, if you’re going to talk about how you’re wanting to treat women like men in the workplace, it sounds rather hollow if you don’t actually treat men that way.
Most men don’t hug each other in the workplace and talk about how good their new haircut looks. So not doing that to women in the workplace isn’t exactly leaving them out.
(Actual romantic relationships are different - but that comment was in the context of how men should treat women, especially subordinates, at work.)
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ConstantLearner
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I can tell you’re not familiar with LA. But that’s fine.
Male friendship in the LA workplace. (And no, they are not romantically involved.) This is the norm here. For women, too. And men and women. No one gets upset about a hug or a kiss.
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SuperLuigi
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I don’t care about posting history. I go with what is front of me.
At this point, it’s best not to continue this conversion about another user.
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