Has the #MeToo movement become a witch-hunt to a significant degree?

[Edmundus1581]

Are you suggesting that people should be fired when there is just an allegation of what one thought was ‘inappropriate’ but there was no criminal case?

I never suggested the Senate didn’t have the right to expel Franken, but that would have at least followed some due process with a review by the ethics committee. He wasn’t given due process and there wasn’t even an allegation of a crime.

These are two of the deep flaws in #metoo. Firstly the severe censure of behaviour which is legal (often many years after the event), and secondly the lack of due process in punishing an “offender”.

I haven’t followed this in the US, but we have had several vivid examples in Australia:

• Two senior executives in our largest sporting body were forced to resign after consensual affairs with mature women (over thirty), who were executives only a few rungs below them in the organisation. The impact on these men’s livelihood and family is devastating, for conduct which was legal, and which was not handled with any due process. There was just a rush from the body to be seen to be decisive and virtuous. Most commentators in Australia were asking “Why were the men punished, but not the women?”. (I would ask, why was anyone punished at all?)
• A very popular and successful entertainer (Craig McLachlan) was “exposed” as the alleged perpetrator of inappropriate conduct back-stage. The allegations were of minor misconduct, and yet his reputation and livelihood were trashed, and a show damaged, before he was given a chance to face his accusers. His response, some weeks later, was to point out that the backstage of any big production, from Mary Poppins to La Traviata is a whirl of physicality and sexual banter, which is enjoyed by all. He admitted that while he was a willing participant, he was also one of the more moderate and took pride in ensuring a respectful environment. The particular show in question was The Rocky Horror Picture Show!!!

After the first allegations were made several more emerged, which were found to be false.

He is suing the organisations which made the first allegations, but the damage has already been done.

Craig McLachlan sues Fairfax, ABC over sexual harassment claims

Due process, please, rather than salacious, sanctimonious reporting.

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As an aside, I was listening to the radio when this story broke. The male announcer put on his serious voice and began “The ABC and Fairfax media have conducted a joint investigation into…”, and I just burst out laughing! I could tell what was coming. This stuff is becoming oh-so-predictable.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Here’s a big problem I see with the SuperLuigi/StarshipTrooper take on MeToo.

You guys belong to a movement or tendency that is entirely reactive with regard to questions of sexual abuse, rape and consent.

That movement does not have a well-worked out take on dating, sexual ethics, consent, sexual abuse and rape. It’s very ad hoc and reactive, with the basic principles being something along the following lines:

The movement started as a reaction to the world dominated by feminism in the 90’s and early 2000’s. Just like Neo, we realized that something was very wrong and that this was not normal, right, or natural.

–liberals are bad

–feminists are bad

–whatever liberals and feminists like must be bad

Not principles, but still true enough.

–dating ought to be like hockey, with the woman being tasked with being the goalie (despite being generally the smallest, weakest person on the ice)

That is in your head.

–also, if anything bad happens, it’s her fault

Also in your head.

–women should accept male leadership

Accurate.

–except if he wants to have sex–it’s complicated

Huh?

–rape is bad, but it almost never happens, and whatever happened was probably your fault and women are usually lying

It is rare, based on the NCVS stats that are published yearly. The evidence that false rape claims are rare is weak at best.

–why didn’t you report right away?

A valid question.

–I already know what rape is–it’s something bad that a nice guy like me would never be guilty of

–I know everything I need to know about avoiding raping women without anybody ever spending a whole 5 minutes talking to me about it.

Rape is not that difficult to define.

–waiting for clear consent is unrealistic and unreasonable

Wait a second, you switched terms again.

–non-virgin women are garbage

Nobody ever said that.

 

[PetraG]

Are you suggesting that people should be fired when there is just an allegation of what one thought was ‘inappropriate’ but there was no criminal case?

I never suggested the Senate didn’t have the right to expel Franken, but that would have at least followed some due process with a review by the ethics committee. He wasn’t given due process and there wasn’t even an allegation of a crime.

People get fired when there is no criminal case all of the time. It isn’t a crime to be habitually late for work, to be rude to the customers, to make a costly mistake that wouldn’t have been made if protocols had been followed. Most workplaces are fairly clear about what their sexual harassment policies are. Obviously, the rules are more strict when you are the “face” of the company, such as when you are on-air talent. In that case, you serve at pleasure and know you can be fired whenever the executives choose to fire you.

The difference is that certain people are high enough in their organizations that they aren’t held to the same standards that everyone else is. I honestly hope that both men and women in executive positions who are in the habit of being abusive are also called to account.

 

[Edmundus1581]

…
People get fired when there is no criminal case all of the time. It isn’t a crime to be habitually late for work, to be rude to the customers, to make a costly mistake that wouldn’t have been made if protocols had been followed.
…

I’ll concede that’s an important point. Well spotted.

Perhaps the relevance of the “legality” of actions may apply to how long ago the alleged incident took place. The longer the passage of time, then the greater the magnitude of the offence, or the greater the number of offences, and the better the process required to punish someone now.

 

[Theo520]

People get fired when there is no criminal case all of the time. It isn’t a crime to be habitually late for work, to be rude to the customers, to make a costly mistake that wouldn’t have been made if protocols had been followed. Most workplaces are fairly clear about what their sexual harassment policies are. Obviously, the rules are more strict when you are the “face” of the company, such as when you are on-air talent. In that case, you serve at pleasure and know you can be fired whenever the executives choose to fire you.

The difference is that certain people are high enough in their organizations that they aren’t held to the same standards that everyone else is. I honestly hope that both men and women in executive positions who are in the habit of being abusive are also called to account.

Read what you posted again, they are being fired for job performance, and it’s meticulously document, not based on an outside allegation joe is habitually late, or one unverified customer complaint from the prior year that Joe was rude.

I already agreed the senate could fire him, THEY HAVE A PROCESS FOR IT.
But they didn’t follow the process, did they.

The voters can also fire a senator, but there wasn’t even a recall petition circulating for Franken on this issue, per my memory of the news.

 

[Theo520]

Sorry you deleted the post, it reflected my memories of being a teen. Nobody was taught to ask for consent before throwing a pass. A gentleman made the pass and respected a negative response. Cads just kept throwing their passes.

 

[DarkLight]

The trouble is a lot of the behavior being put forward is more than “making a pass.” There’s also two different principles being conflated here.

(1) Men should be very careful approaching women in situations where the woman is going to be afraid of consequences for saying no. Workplace situations between a superior and a subordinate generally fall into this category. Approaching a woman in an isolated situation, unless she knows you very well, also counts.

(2) You can make a pass or a spontaneous move without pushing it into harassment. Part of the problem with kissing is that if the kiss itself is unwelcome, you can’t take back the kiss - and plenty of women do attach importance to a kiss and will be upset if they end up with one they didn’t want. (I definitely regret that my first kiss was a guy kissing me when I didn’t want to be kissed, but didn’t have a chance to stop it.) I think on something like kissing, giving a woman time to see what’s coming and respond, and backing off if the response isn’t positive, would suffice - if she doesn’t want it, she’ll pull away.

 

[Theo520]

I agree with your points, the ‘rules’ have always been murky and varied widely by individuals and even places of employment.

Ideally we’ll settle on more clear cut guidelines we can teach both young and old. And it needs to be better than trying to judge if they are equally ‘enthusiastic’.

 

[Xantippe]

I never suggested the Senate didn’t have the right to expel Franken, but that would have at least followed some due process with a review by the ethics committee. He wasn’t given due process and there wasn’t even an allegation of a crime.

He could have stuck around and taken due process, but it would have been very embarrassing for both him and his Democratic colleagues.

From what I’ve heard, the Senate ethics committee is pretty toothless (or at least it was recently):

Senate ethics panel has issued no punishments in 9 years

The committee has issued a half dozen letters saying senators may have acted inproperly

www.usatoday.com

"WASHINGTON — The Senate Ethics Committee released its annual report this week declaring that for the ninth straight year, it imposed no disciplinary sanctions against anyone in 2015. Since 2007, the committee has received 613 allegations of wrongdoing and has summarily dismissed more than 90% of them. Only 75 have had even a preliminary investigation.

:The total of the committee’s discipline during the nine-year period is a half-dozen letters the committee has written to senators saying, basically, “you should not have done that.” The committee did not issue activity reports prior to 2007, and did not respond to a request for comment on this story."

 

[Xantippe]

Should she be fired because she got drunk and made a pass?

It was highly inappropriate, but no crime was committed.

Personally, I might choose not to vote for her but I don’t think she should be fired unless the behavior continued, was serial in nature. I expect she will learn her lesson from this public rebuke.

There are two different incidents mentioned in that article:

“But Daniel Fierro of Cerritos told POLITICO that in 2014, as a 25-year-old staffer to Assemblyman Ian Calderon, he was groped by Garcia, a powerful Democratic lawmaker who chairs the Legislative Women’s Caucus and the Natural Resources Committee.”

“He said she cornered him alone after the annual Assembly softball game in Sacramento as he attempted to clean up the dugout. Fierro, who said Garcia appeared inebriated, said she began stroking his back, then squeezed his buttocks and attempted to touch his crotch before he extricated himself and quickly left.”

“Fierro is not the only one claiming improper advances by Garcia. A prominent Sacramento lobbyist says she also accosted him in May 2017, when she cornered him, made a graphic sexual proposal, and tried to grab his crotch at a political fundraiser. He spoke to POLITICO on the condition of anonymity out of fear of reprisals.”

“The lobbyist, who represents a major industry association, said that Garcia appeared to have been drinking heavily at a fundraiser hosted by Governor Jerry Brown for state Senator Josh Newman at the de Veres bar in Sacramento. He said he was heading out the door in part to avoid the assemblywoman — who had been increasingly “flirtatious” and had called him on a few occasions before for late night drinks which he repeatedly declined.”

Etc.

I feel like the phrasing about her “making a pass” is not really adequate for the assemblywoman’s behavior.

She also seems to have an alcohol problem if this keeps happening.

I don’t know what the California legislatures rules are, but if they are similar to the senate, I believe the state of California can do better than this harassing drunk.

Edited to add: This is early days for this story. If there are already two guys, I suspect there are going to be more.

 

[Theo520]

Your comments are a prime example of the witch hunt.

Franken wasn’t accused of anything more than being a cad, a little too handsy in a photo op. He didn’t harass a single staffer.

The old guy from Detroit is different though, he was admittedly guilty of harassing/assaulting his staff and his resignation did make sense.

 

[Xantippe]

Franken wasn’t accused of anything more than being a cad, a little too handsy in a photo op.

Check out this timeline:

Timeline: Key events related to misconduct allegations against Al Franken

Key events related to allegations of sexual misconduct by Minnesota Democratic Sen. Al Franken: NOV. 16 A Los Angeles radio anchor accuses Franken of forcibly kissing her while they were rehearsing…

www.chicagotribune.com

It wasn’t just one photo op–he had a pattern of behavior.

 

[DarkLight]

I think sometimes people also forget - there’s no god-given right to have sex. I have heard far too many men justify whatever behavior because some woman somewhere might respond positively. Plenty of people have managed to go through their lives not having sex, or not having it until later than they wanted, or something. I think our modern society sometimes forgets that it is possible to live a healthy, fulfilled life without having sex.

 

[Xantippe]

Two senior executives in our largest sporting body were forced to resign after consensual affairs with mature women (over thirty), who were executives only a few rungs below them in the organisation. The impact on these men’s livelihood and family is devastating, for conduct which was legal, and which was not handled with any due process.

What is the due process that you have in mind?

They had affairs with subordinates. It doesn’t matter if it was legal or not if the organization does not wish to continue to employ them. People get fired for much less–in fact, they had probably fired people for much less. Work affairs create all sorts of problems with the appearance of unfairness and actual unfairness (see, for example, Matt Lauer). If the firings violate their contracts, they can sue.

If they cared that much about their families, they wouldn’t have been cheating at work.

 

[Xantippe]

Rape is not that difficult to define.

Are you going to define it?

 

[Xantippe]

And it needs to be better than trying to judge if they are equally ‘enthusiastic’.

Just enthusiastic would be good.

 

[DarkLight]

What is the due process that you have in mind?

They had affairs with subordinates. It doesn’t matter if it was legal or not if the organization does not wish to continue to employ them. People get fired for much less–in fact, they had probably fired people for much less. Work affairs create all sorts of problems with the appearance of unfairness and actual unfairness (see, for example, Matt Lauer). If the firings violate their contracts, they can sue.

If they cared that much about their families, they wouldn’t have been cheating at work.

Yeah it’s common to fire people even for completely consensual affairs with subordinates. Companies don’t like it because it creates an appearance of favoritism. People start to wonder if so-and-so got that promotion because they were qualified, or because they were sleeping with the boss. It’s just not good for the company to have that sort of behavior around.

 

[Xantippe]

It is rare, based on the NCVS stats that are published yearly. The evidence that false rape claims are rare is weak at best.

The problem is that your approach suggests that real rape claims are rare. I’ve never seen you accept the possibility that any particular rape accusation was true.

What do you think the ratios are? 50% false? If so, that means that 50% are true. 70% false? That still means 30% are true. Etc.

A valid question.

(That was in answer to the question “why didn’t you report right away?”)

What is the point to reporting if one is going to be treated like a liar and put through a humiliating, lengthy, financially and emotionally costly, and quite probably pointless process?

It doesn’t make any sense to say that women are usually lying about rape and then wonder why women with fresh trauma don’t want to report rape.

Edited to add: People who are dealing with trauma are often not up to doing anything beyond just surviving.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

And the irony here is that it’s not uncommon to have those beliefs (that other people’s personal boundaries are meaningless and consent is optional) combined with a desire for/feeling of entitlement for a virgin bride of his own. The irony(for those of you in the back rows) is that it’s a heck of a lot easier to preserve one’s virginity around people who respect personal boundaries and who value consent, and so a guy who wants a virgin bride ought to love boundaries and consent.

Good point.

 

[PetraG]

I’ll concede that’s an important point. Well spotted.

Perhaps the relevance of the “legality” of actions may apply to how long ago the alleged incident took place. The longer the passage of time, then the greater the magnitude of the offence, or the greater the number of offences, and the better the process required to punish someone now.

It is my great hope that this kind of offense, like offenses against children, is going to be less prevalent because those who took advantage of the likelihood that they wouldn’t be called on their behavior are going to know better.

Yes, just as there are perfectly innocent people out there who side-hug children whom they used to give a full and innocent front-on hug, there are going to be some physical shows of affection at work that are going to be far less prevalent even if they are innocently meant. If you’ve ever had some superior who took liberties, though, it is a price you’re willing to pay, unfortunate as it is.