Has the #MeToo movement become a witch-hunt to a significant degree?

[Xantippe]

There are a lot of articles on the don’t-want-to-hug-grandma debate. Here’s one:

http://www.upworthy.com/if-it-feels...ur-kid-to-hug-their-relatives-theres-a-reason

“So when you force Isabelle to hug people who she’s telling you she doesn’t feel like hugging, it kind of sends a subtle but lasting message that you care more about being on Team Grandma or Team New Stranger than being on Team Isabelle.”

“Additionally, forcing kids to give physical affection they aren’t feeling tells them to ignore their own feelings to appease others.”

“While YOU may know that Grandma is harmless, it’s less about the actual inherent risk and more about the practice of teaching your children that their boundaries matter and will be recognized. A child who learns early on that their “no” means something is an empowered child. It’s not going to turn them into a spoiled brat just because they get to decide who they want to demonstrate physical affection with. There are other ways to raise a balanced child than insisting they give up bodily autonomy.”

Edited to add: Note that some of the biggest offenders in this area are likely to be older female relatives.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

A child who learns early on that their “no” means something is an empowered child. It’s not going to turn them into a spoiled brat just because they get to decide who they want to demonstrate physical affection with. There are other ways to raise a balanced child than insisting they give up bodily autonomy.

When I was about 10, I was at a homeopathic conference with my mom, and one of the speakers was a Belgian doctor. For some reason, he took a shine to me, and was very free with giving me hugs and kisses on the cheek (all in full view of my mom and her friends). I don’t know how they roll in Belgium, so that was probably just a normal cultural thing for him, but from the viewpoint of an introverted Irish-American kid, it freaked me the heck out that this strange man was touching me like that. I didn’t feel free to squirm away, because this man was a doctor, so of course he was “safe,” and I didn’t want to be “rude.”

 

[F_Marturana]

My grandma would give big kisses on our cheeks while squishing our faces until we looked like a fish.

Grandpa would give these little delicate barely touching my cheek kisses.

I hated kissing grandma. I didn’t mind grandpa. Then grandma would get jealous and kiss me again.

 

[Xantippe]

I had a tickling great-uncle who was still tickling me to the point of collapse when I was a big 10-year-old girl.

I would not allow anybody to do that to my kids if I wasn’t 110% sure that they liked it.

 

[Joe_5859]

It’s interesting for me to read these types of things. As someone who has never been touch averse, nor can I recall ever being touched by someone in a way that has made me uncomfortable, I think it’s good for me to realize that not everyone approaches touch in the same way.

 

[F_Marturana]

My husband had a crush on Olivia Hussey for a while as a teen. He read that during filming of Romeo and Juliet, she would wander off set and talk to her older friend. She’d sit on his lap and he would tell her a story.

The older friend was Federico Fellini.

I can’t tell if he did see her as a child, or if there was a bit of dirty old man involved.

 

[F_Marturana]

Years ago, a co worker told me his sister had a seizure following being tickled intensely. I’m a nervous nelly, so I never let my kids get tickled for a prolonged time.

 

[TheAmazingGrace]

I can’t tell if he did see her as a child, or if there was a bit of dirty old man involved.

Yeah. It’s almost impossible to tell a lot of the time. She was 15, though, so I’m erring on the side of “dirty old man.”

 

[ConstantLearner]

It’s interesting for me to read these types of things. As someone who has never been touch averse, nor can I recall ever being touched by someone in a way that has made me uncomfortable, I think it’s good for me to realize that not everyone approaches touch in the same way.

I agree with you, and I, too, can’t recall a time when I was touched inappropriately.

 

[Theo520]

There’s also the issue that one doesn’t want kids to lose any natural reserve and get too used to being handled by relative strangers, or to develop the idea that they aren’t allowed to say no to physical contact from adults.

I think even highly touched children have a natural aversion to strangers. Anyway, most cases of abuse are with someone the child knows, unless it’s an abduction scenario.

 

[Xantippe]

I think even highly touched children have a natural aversion to strangers. Anyway, most cases of abuse are with someone the child knows, unless it’s an abduction scenario.

I said “relative stranger.”

To a small child, even out-of-town-grandma registers as a stranger. That’s something people don’t give enough weight to–mom and dad may know and trust Uncle Bob or Grandma, but from the kid’s point of view, they are strangers.

Another thing–this may sound weird, but there was a time when we insisted that our two older kids get permission before hugging each other. The reason for that is that Big Girl was almost twice Middle Kid’s size for years, Big Girl didn’t know her own strength, and their hugs were leading to injury and tears. We were eventually able to relax the rule. I’ve also seen a lot of what I call “sumo hugs” between small children. It starts out with a cute hug, and then somehow, they fall over, and pretty soon one or both is crying.

Edited to add: You’ll notice that I try to be gender neutral about this.

 

[starshiptrooper]

We would have to settle on a workable definition of consent first.

 

[starshiptrooper]

The problem is that your approach suggests that real rape claims are rare. I’ve never seen you accept the possibility that any particular rape accusation was true.

What do you think the ratios are? 50% false? If so, that means that 50% are true. 70% false? That still means 30% are true. Etc.

Find a credible accusation first. The data I trust indicates that potentially 40% of all rape claims are false. That is a huge number and makes it rather dangerous to just believe survivors like feminists insist, no?

What is the point to reporting if one is going to be treated like a liar and put through a humiliating, lengthy, financially and emotionally costly, and quite probably pointless process?

It doesn’t make any sense to say that women are usually lying about rape and then wonder why women with fresh trauma don’t want to report rape.

Edited to add: People who are dealing with trauma are often not up to doing anything beyond just surviving.

Why it’s almost like the police do their jobs and investigate instead of just taking one person’s word over the other as feminists would have us do!

 

[DarkLight]

I think that’s for their parents to teach them, but I still agree with the previous comment about not initiating physical contact. Men should be especially careful! (I know you’re a woman, I’m not calling you a man.) Then again, some parents don’t teach. Teachers are role models as well as teaching subjects in books.

Part of the problem is that do as a I say, not as I do, never works. If mom and dad are saying it’s ok to not touch people - now hug grandma that you don’t remember, or teachers are saying if you don’t give a hug you’re being bad, the kid’s not going to get a clear message.

It’s interesting for me to read these types of things. As someone who has never been touch averse, nor can I recall ever being touched by someone in a way that has made me uncomfortable, I think it’s good for me to realize that not everyone approaches touch in the same way.

Honestly it can have nothing at all to do with anything sexual too. We suspect I have some sort of subclinical sensory processing thing. If I’m overwhelmed, touching me is going to get a mental response of “you’re providing ANOTHER (name removed by moderator)ut to deal with, get off,” likely combined with pulling away. I’ve definitely had people get upset with me over that - if I’m already overstressed, the last thing I want is someone touching me.

 

[Xantippe]

We would have to settle on a workable definition of consent first.

I think we have on a number of occasions–making sure to check in and make sure that the other person seems OK with whatever you are doing. One way to ensure that is having a verbal and responsive style of physical intimacy. It may seem unnatural to a person who isn’t used to doing it, but it comes very naturally if that’s what you do. Here are some suggestions:

–Is the other person into it or just tolerating it?
–Are they initiating at all? Are they kissing back? If you are doing all the work, that’s a bad sign.
–What is their body language? Are they moving away, hesitating, brushing hands away, etc? Are they stiff or relaxed?
–What are they saying? Verbally encouraging is good.
–What did they say earlier about their personal boundaries? If they said, I don’t want to XYZ–DO NOT DO XYZ unexpectedly without getting clear permission to do so, and even then, I think that that’s a danger sign that this was a personal boundary. That’s exactly the sort of situation that is likely to trigger the “regret” that the manosphere is always whinging about. So, don’t do it!
–As people were pointing out in previous discussions of consent, verbally responsive women aren’t all that unusual. It’s not unusual for women to be extremely verbal during physical intimacy. Unless you know the woman well and are very sure that she is consenting, silence is a very bad sign.

Speaking as an experienced married lady who does my fair share of asking, I am baffled by your insistence that it’s SO HARD to detect consent. It’s hard if there’s no consent there. If there is consent, trust me, it’s VERY easy.

 

[DarkLight]

Why it’s almost like the police do their jobs and investigate instead of just taking one person’s word over the other as feminists would have us do!

Except the point is a lot of times there’s no investigation so much as “well, if she’s not beaten up and crying she must be lying.” And that’s not counting public reaction if the case gets known - a lot of women, especially younger women, report being harassed or bullied for reporting by people who haven’t done any investigation but still decide the woman is lying.

I’m reminded of the one piece the new york times got blasted for, for reporting that a young gang-rape victim “dressed like an adult.” There’s a lot of stuff like that out there, where people will latch onto anything they can. Would you really want everyone around to take an interest in your sexual history or how you dressed?

 

[Xantippe]

Find a credible accusation first. The data I trust indicates that potentially 40% of all rape claims are false. That is a huge number and makes it rather dangerous to just believe survivors like feminists insist, no?

Women held captive in Ohio home for decade release a memoir

When Amanda Berry’s toddler daughter had night terrors and started screaming and running around the room, Berry couldn’t always get to her — because she was chained and couldn&#82…

www.chicagotribune.com

That one is pretty open and shut.

Also, Larry Nassar, the gymnastics doctor and accused molester of 150+ young women, had a lot of child porn in his possession, so that’s pretty solid.

If 40% are false, that means that 60% are true. That means that it’s more likely than not that any particular story is true. You’re free to doubt any particular story, but you should aim to believe 60%.

I don’t see you believing 60% of accusations.

Speaking for myself, I was an early doubter of Duke Lacrosse and pretty much instantly disbelieved the Rolling Stone UVA story–there were huge problems with the UVA story from the get-go. I’d also point out that quite a few of the false stories that Janet Bloomfield mentioned fell apart almost immediately. As a blogger I’ve read points out, false accusations don’t just come out of the blue–they are consistent with the character of the accuser and often reflect obvious personal motives (which was very much the case with Duke Lacrosse and UVA).

However, if a person who is known to be truthful makes a rape accusation (especially against a person of less sterling moral character), I think she ought to be believed.

It’s HARD to tell a consistent lie these days, especially with cell phones, social media, etc. It’s never been easier to get caught in a lie.

Why it’s almost like the police do their jobs and investigate instead of just taking one person’s word over the other as feminists would have us do!

Let me walk you through this again. (These are verbatim quotes, culled from the discussion)

I wrote: “–why didn’t you report right away?”

You responded: “A valid question.”

I responded: “What is the point to reporting if one is going to be treated like a liar and put through a humiliating, lengthy, financially and emotionally costly, and quite probably pointless process? It doesn’t make any sense to say that women are usually lying about rape and then wonder why women with fresh trauma don’t want to report rape.
Edited to add: People who are dealing with trauma are often not up to doing anything beyond just surviving.”

StarshipTrooper: “Why it’s almost like the police do their jobs and investigate instead of just taking one person’s word over the other as feminists would have us do!”

 

[Xantippe]

I’m reminded of the one piece the new york times got blasted for, for reporting that a young gang-rape victim “dressed like an adult.”

Yeah–that was an 11-year-old girl, if I’m remembering the story correctly, and the case became public because video footage of the assaults was being circulated at her school. She had to leave her school.

Her town was very much on the side of the young men involved, even though given her age, it didn’t matter if she gave consent or dressed older or whatever.

 

[Xantippe]

Except the point is a lot of times there’s no investigation so much as “well, if she’s not beaten up and crying she must be lying.

Right–that’s the point of the unchecked rape kit stories.

A lot of investigations are not actually happening.

 

[DarkLight]

Yeah–that was an 11-year-old girl, if I’m remembering the story correctly, and the case became public because video footage of the assaults was being circulated at her school. She had to leave her school.

Her town was very much on the side of the young men involved, even though given her age, it didn’t matter if she gave consent or dressed older or whatever.

Yeah, the idea that adult men shouldn’t be having sex with pre-teen girls really isn’t hard.

The Steubenville case was another one - there was a lot of public focus on how awful it was that the young men’s lives were ruined, including in major media networks, and much of the town sided against her. Despite it being a very clear case to anyone watching (the young men in question had recorded the incident and it was plainly obvious the girl was unresponsive).