Has the #MeToo movement become a witch-hunt to a significant degree?

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Xantippe said:
and tolerance of intolerable behavior.
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Xantippe said:
Then, along come the “snowflakes”–and it all starts falling apart.
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🤣🤣🤣

Seems to me the rich and powerful are still in tact. Have they even charged Harvey Weinstein with anything yet?
Xantippe said:
it’s not going to be possible to permanently silence victims anymore.
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Here’s the rub: It never was. But just try accusing a Muslim man of that in 10 years and see what happens.
Xantippe said:
So, go snowflakes!
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See who you’ll cheer for when sexual harassment is no longer the flavour of the month.

Here are some reasons of reporting false rape by those big, bad snowflakes:
  1. Being out past curfew
  2. Getting out of taking a test
  3. Being out her boyfriend and not wanting to be seen as a whore
 
HarryStotle said:
rumoured “excruciating” pain repeatedly.
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HA HA HA!!!

I accidentally almost didn’t get an epidural for my middle baby because of how fast everything went and how busy the hospital was, but I can give it to you from the horse’s mouth–it felt literally like being ripped apart. I’m going to give it a 9 on the pain scale, reserving 10 for actually being ripped apart.
HarryStotle said:
It could be argued that the proclivity towards divorce or bailing out of marriage (or only tentatively or conditionally entering into relationships) is evidence that the last couple of generations are averse to putting up with suffering, unease, boredom, inconvenience or any other of the negative states attending marriage.
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–Previous generations didn’t have legal divorce as a realistic option (although people did occasionally step out for a pack of cigarettes and not come back).
–Divorce is way down.


Here’s a very interesting chart showing 144 years of marriage and divorce:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...d-states-in-one-chart/?utm_term=.0baa399c8240

Interestingly, there was a huge and unprecedented spike in divorce in the mid-1940s. US divorce peaked in 1980 (like abortion, come to think of it), trended slowly down, then collapsed.

I think there’s a story you’re missing here–namely that a lot of bad things trends peaked in the late 1970s/early 1980s and have gotten better since. So, if anything, we should be high-fiving today’s young adults for being less promiscuous, less likely to have abortions, and less likely to divorce. The idea of getting married just for convenience and then divorcing is very much frowned on in today’s middle class, especially when children are involved. Obviously, everything is not perfect, but there are a number of bright spots that deserve attention.
HarryStotle said:
The fact that women in the past bore upwards of a dozen children and willingly bore that “burden” with grace (pace @TheAmazingGrace) and aplomb implies that childbirth isn’t anything like suffering severe battlefield injuries, which often tore apart bodies permanently. Many of those were so traumatized that they could not ever speak of the experience again. That isn’t true of women and their birthing experience.
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You think that childbirth doesn’t cause trauma? Good gravy.


“an estimated 2 million women in Asia and sub-Saharan Africa live with untreated obstetric fistula”

Childbirth can also cause PTSD.

Also, regarding the whole war versus childbirth thing, I just remembered an example from my extended family. My husband’s grandmother was a nurse with the Polish underground during the Warsaw uprising, and she wound up with shrapnel.

Again, WWII fatalities were at least 60% civilians.
 
SuperLuigi said:
But they sustain the vast majority of it. Women just tend to go with the flow, even if that means obliging new conquerers.
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It depends on the war. When Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Tokyo and London were bombed, “going with the flow” wasn’t exactly an option.

And going back to HarryStotle–bear in mind that in the pre-anesthesia era, the convent was a very attractive option for many young women.

And again, before advances in obstetrics, 1 woman used to die because of childbirth for every 100 babies born. Under those circumstances, the shrapnel versus childbirth example isn’t as clearcut as HarryStotle might imagine, because it was a real possibility that childbirth would be fatal, perhaps after several days of extreme pain during obstructed delivery (like what those African women get fistulas from if they survive).
 
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SuperLuigi said:
Here’s the rub: It never was. But just try accusing a Muslim man of that in 10 years and see what happens.
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Not really because even in some predominantly Muslim countries women (and good men) are challenging old prevelant attitudes and are now understanding that when a man sexually harasses a woman that it is purely his fault and isn’t the women’s part fault due to what she was wearing,her demeanour,etc…

For example a female Egyptian Tv reporter was sentenced to a jail sentence for defaming a woman after she suggested that a woman who was sexually harassed in a shopping mall was perhaps to blame as she was dressed indecently (according to Egypt standards) and then released old photos of her in a bikini etc…
A lot of Egyptian public “turned” on the reporter on social media and called for the termination of her career.

 
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Also, pointing out that most Muslims really don’t act that way isn’t the same as being ok with whatever Muslims do. Many feminists have spoken out opposing forcing women to wear hijab and such - but also against forcing them not to, or treating them as though they have no agency to choose for themselves (in situations where there isn’t blatant compulsion, obviously). There was quite an outcry in feminist circles when a prominent Saudi cleric compared uncovered women being raped to dogs going after raw meat that someone left out. (Including some amusing videos that a well-trained dog doesn’t behave that way; presumably men can be expected to have greater self-control than dogs.)
 
DarkLight said:
Many feminists have spoken out opposing forcing women to wear hijab and such - but also against forcing them not to
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Who are these “many feminists”?

The ones I see in Europe are saying women should dress more modestly so as not to tempt young immigrant men (which goes against everything you’ve ever said on here-----and I have to say, you, like so many others are very eager to jump at the rarest of exceptions when it comes to Islam. That’s why especially 3rd wave feminism is doomed.)

In America, they organize with Linda Sarsour and were tearfully taking hijabs in the form of the American flags at the woman’s march. I can only imagine the reaction if Little Sisters of the Poor were handing out crosses and habits.

The fact is all of these movements have become co-opted by the progressive left. All that’s happening now are people working the margins—ie jumping at the exceptions in places like Saudi Arabia and Egypt. That is a classic strategy of the left.

The fact is over 70% of people in Egypt want sharia, and Saudi Arabia is not going to change anytime soon. Feminists all over the West are conceding ground in the culture war on multiple fronts. They don’t have the will or the stomach to compete with Islam because it’s not about the cause, it’s about them appeasing whatever the flavour of the month is and looking good.
 
Xantippe said:
It depends on the war. When Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Tokyo and London were bombed, “going with the flow” wasn’t exactly an option.
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More men from the USA lost their lives in WWII than casulties in all of those cities combined.

My point is that most women aren’t going to resist a new foreign conquest. It’s just not going to happen.
 
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I’d point out I actually lived in part of the U.S. with one of the highest concentration of muslims. We never had any particular problems. Honestly, the only thing I really noticed was that as a teaching assistant, I had to pay attention to Islamic holidays for attendance purposes. (And at least the Muslim men weren’t trying to get me in bed with them.) Our parishes here also share charitable work with the mosques and we’ve shared worship services with them - obviously while keeping from anything contradictory to our faith. I work with them at work as well and have never had any issues.

These “rarest exceptions” include all the Muslims I’ve actually interacted with in this country.
 
SuperLuigi said:
My point is that most women aren’t going to resist a new foreign conquest. It’s just not going to happen.
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They can, and they do. I’ve done work with North Korean defectors, and the overwhelming majority of them are women. It’s mostly women who are making the daring choice to not be subject to the whims of a brutal dictatorship, escaping to freedom, and speaking out against the atrocities of the North Korean government. Of course, men are subject to somewhat more surveillance than women (in a society where there are tabs kept on everybody), which makes their chances of escape more limited, but this example still goes to show that women are capable of resistance, and of not taking abuse lying down.
 
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SuperLuigi said:
The ones I see in Europe are saying women should dress more modestly so as not to tempt young immigrant men (which goes against everything you’ve ever said on here-----and I have to say, you, like so many others are very eager to jump at the rarest of exceptions when it comes to Islam. That’s why especially 3rd wave feminism is doomed.
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Which country are you referring to please and do have any links to articles displaying this?

Perhaps you are referring to a country like Sweden or Germany?
I live in Australia and I would describe some parts of Australian society as quite “feminist” and even moderately PC but I have never heard any feminists here promoting modest dress for the sake of Muslim men.
Standing in solidarity for a Muslim woman verbally harassed for wearing Hijab,yes, but definitely not promoting/encouraging modest dress to Australians because of Muslim men.

While I’m born in Australia,I actually come from a European background and some people in my background are also follow Islam religion and nobody there either is trying to influence the Christians/ non religious to dress in a “traditionally Muslim” way.
 
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HarryStotle said:
And pretty much any of those women would prefer childbirth.
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They can both be fatal or extremely damaging. I’ll give some childbirth examples, as you don’t seem to be familiar with the possibilities:

–“A fourth-degree tear extends completely through to the anus, tearing the external and internal anal sphincters and sometimes the internal wall of the rectum or bowel.”


–pre-eclampsia/eclampsia

"HELLP syndrome. HELLP — which stands for hemolysis (the destruction of red blood cells), elevated liver enzymes and low platelet count — syndrome is a more severe form of preeclampsia, and can rapidly become life-threatening for both you and your baby.

“Symptoms of HELLP syndrome include nausea and vomiting, headache, and upper right abdominal pain. HELLP syndrome is particularly dangerous because it represents damage to several organ systems.”

A friend of mine devlopep pre-eclampsia after delivering one of her kids–her urine turned bloody because her kidneys had stopped working.


–postpartum hemorrhage

“PPH can cause a severe drop in blood pressure. If not treated quickly, this can lead to shock and death.”


I sometimes read an OBs blog, and the OBs and nurses describe situations where a woman goes into PPH after having a baby and the hospital blood bank is exhausted trying to save her.

–placental abruption


In placental abruption, the placenta sheers off the uterine wall, with the potential of both death for the baby and heavy bleeding leading to death for the mother. (A friend of ours delivered twins by c-section because of placental abruption–the twins spent three months in NICU.)

–postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis (the latter is what Andrea Yates had)


Some of this stuff is now treatable with good medical care, but prenatal care is not security theater–the reason US women aren’t dying like flies is because conventional prenatal care is proactive–it’s not that childbirth isn’t still one of the most dangerous activities a woman will ever engage in.

People nowadays (including women) are often much too blase about the medical risks of pregnancy and childbirth. All of this stuff has to be taken very seriously to protect the life of mother and child.
 
HarryStotle said:
It isn’t just religious views that are reproved and disallowed, it is increasingly views on all kinds of issues. There needs to be push-back on the intimidators and bullies who are attempting to mould society in their image and solely according to their beliefs.

What ever happened to diversity (of opinions) is our strength?
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I believe the religion of Identity Politics is coming to a close, people are recognizing the hypocrisy in the messaging.

I also think it’s natural for sub groups to try to mould society in their image. For a very long time it was Christian theology doing the moulding. I wonder what will come next.
 
SuperLuigi said:
My point is that most women aren’t going to resist a new foreign conquest. It’s just not going to happen.
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And most men aren’t going to resist a new foreign conquest–resisters will always be a minority after a crushing military defeat.

After a major military defeat, men often “go with the flow” as well. See, for example, Vichy France or Vidkun Quisling of Norway.

Here are some counter-examples to the idea that women “go with the flow” (some of these are drawn from bitter internal political struggles, not war between nations):

–Harriet Tubman
–The US Civil Rights movement
–Poles (of both sexes) resisted Soviet oppression for 44 years. (My MIL was in Solidarity during martial law in Poland and as I mentioned, her MIL was a nurse with the Polish underground during the Warsaw Uprising and eventually collected a veteran’s pension.)
–Women (far more than men) continued to practice and pass on their faith under Soviet communism–it’s amusing (but not in a ha ha way) that male Russian politicians have suddenly gotten religion now that it’s safe and personally profitable.
–Women have always been prominent in undergrounds and intelligence. See, for example, WWII and the OSS’s radio operators who were parachuted into occupied France. Also, any partisans or guerillas would need the cooperation and protection of (often female) civilians in order to survive.
–Sophie Scholl
–Corrie Ten Boom and her sister
–Corazon Aquino of the Philippines (after her opposition leader husband was assassinated, she toppled Ferdinand Marcos)
–Aung San Suu Kyi of Burma
–Arab Spring
–Yazidi women escaping from ISIS
–Women are very prominent in resistance to the regime in Iran today


Your theory about women embracing invaders or oppressors is pretty undersourced. It’s really not uncommon for nationalities to preserve their identity, religion and language under dozens or even hundreds of years of repressive treatment by occupiers or dominant ethnic groups–which does not at all accord with your idea of women happily knuckling under to invaders or oppressors. If your theory was correct, none of those small, oppressed minorities would survive a year.
 
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SuperLuigi said:
The fact is over 70% of people in Egypt want sharia
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The question is, what do they mean by “sharia”?

They might hear “sharia” and understand it in the same light that an American would support the U.S. Constitution, motherhood, baseball and apple pie.

You might get very different results by querying them about specific features of sharia. (Consider the difference between how the US public responds to polls about “gun control” versus specific policies.)

I wouldn’t be surprised if Saudi Arabia and Iran changed a lot within our lifetimes.
TheAmazingGrace said:
It’s mostly women who are making the daring choice to not be subject to the whims of a brutal dictatorship, escaping to freedom, and speaking out against the atrocities of the North Korean government.
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It looks like your estimate is correct.


“Since 1953, 100,000–300,000 North Koreans have defected, most of whom have fled to Russia or China.[9] 1,418 were registered as arriving in South Korea in 2016. In 2017, there were 31,093 defectors registered with the Unification Ministry in South Korea, 71% of whom were women.”
 
I have a couple pieces of political advice for SuperLuigi.

I realize that some guys on the right find it very enjoyable to complain about and criticize women, but I have to point out to you that as a political strategy it stinks to tell half of your potential audience that they are automatically, just by virtue of their sex, quizlings, and that it has always been thus and so (when any fair-minded reading of modern history would demonstrate that that is not the case).

Aside from being false, it’s also defeatist. Imagine walking around WWII Britain saying that women are all traitors who will immediately learn German and flock to be SS officers’ mistresses and have German babies after invasion. I’m pretty sure you could get arrested for that sort of thing in wartime Britain. No movement wins by talking like that–it drives away potential allies and demoralizes the remaining people in the movement.

I’d also point out that many of the views found among your political allies (and in this thread) strongly resemble the Islamic abuses that we are supposed to be horrified by. This is a huge obstacle to gaining support from women and it also hurts the credibility of the critique of Islam. It isn’t convincing to hear that Islam is bad because Muslims are terrible to women from people who have made it abundantly clear that they, too, have views and practices very similar to their supposed enemy. I would have to ask ChunkMonk, for example, what is bad about Saudi Arabia’s laws restricting women’s freedom? To me, he sounds like he wants a Christian Saudi Arabia.

In the US, it really wouldn’t be difficult to find a practicing Islamic man who was a much better husband than almost any person preaching alt-right/manosphere views.

Edited to add: Compare and contrast the gender divide at the Charlottesville Unite the Right rally (nearly all male on the alt-right side) versus the gender divide at the March for Life in Washington DC (lots and lots of women and girls). Like Spinal Tap, the alt-right’s appeal is a lot more selective than traditional conservatism.
 
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Xantippe said:
Your theory about women embracing invaders or oppressors is pretty undersourced. It’s really not uncommon for nationalities to preserve their identity, religion and language under dozens or even hundreds of years of repressive treatment by occupiers or dominant ethnic groups–which does not at all accord with your idea of women happily knuckling under to invaders or oppressors. If your theory was correct, none of those small, oppressed minorities would survive a year.
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Let’s assume that you have made your case that women can and will stand against overt or “hard” totalitarianism where the aggression is obvious and the threat pronounced. The question then becomes whether women and recent generations of feminized men have the foresight and wisdom to recognize and resist the soft totalitarianism that invades using the guise of “caring” and protection of rights in order to divide the “underprivileged” and victimized from each other so these willingly place themselves under the all-encompassing and “compassionate” welfare state that will then impose its “compassionate” pogroms to benefit the victim classes until anyone with any gumption to resist has been neutralized. The true nature of its “compassion” will then be unleashed.

Ease and comfort and “rights” as drawing cards to this “utopia” will be very effective to bring anyone with an aversion to any short-term pain or suffering on board, especially when that short-sightedness blinds those so afflicted with an inability to think beyond short-term advantage.

The cultural Marxists and Islamists are not stupid, they know full well how to play on and conscript the sympathetic and empathetic proclivities of their targets.

#MeToo, for all its unverified and unverifiable allegations does have one effect – as a weapon to undermine and neutralize any moral standing that legitimate opponents to the incursion of cultural Marxism might have. A few well-placed and plausible sounding allegations and a loud chorus of condemnation will quickly bring down any potential opponent. Undermining due-process is an important feature here. Muddying the water with half-truths and “could-be” truths such that distinguishing between who are one’s allies and who is the enemy, is another. Restrictions on free speech, for whatever reason, is a third.

This is social manipulation at its worst. We need to be far more vigilant and discerning than we currently are, especially where one’s sympathy and empathy are called into question. Who is doing the questioning and for what long-term end? Willingness to stand for the truth and a clear sense of the good are going to be very important, short term.
 
Here’s some more detail on Yazidi women not “going with the flow.”


“The first 12 hours of capture were filled with sharply mounting terror. The selection of any girl was accompanied by screaming as she was forcibly pulled from the room, with her mother and any other women who tried to keep hold of her being brutally beaten by fighters. [Yazidi] women and girls began to scratch and bloody themselves in an attempt to make themselves unattractive to potential buyers.”

“At first, the women and girls were taken to prearranged locations in Iraq where they were handed out to the Isis fighters who took part in the attack on Sinjar. To avoid being raped, some of the girls killed themselves by slitting their wrists or throats, or hanging themselves, or throwing themselves from buildings.”

Not recommended for Catholics–but also not “going with the flow.”

“Amid the panic in the Sinjar ID office, Leila decided to pose as a mother to her small niece and nephew after she saw the other women being taken away, and correctly assumed that being unmarried was dangerous.”

“In the coming weeks, some Yazidis managed to escape by walking through the night across muddy fields, keeping to the valleys to avoid Isis checkpoints and reach the peshmerga.”

“They covered their faces with ash to try and look unattractive in the hope that they wouldn’t be picked.”

“While in the jail, Khulka tattooed herself with the names of her husband and father, so that her body could be recognised and returned to them if she was killed. She mixed breast milk from a lactating woman with ash, and used a needle she had smuggled into the jail. With the same needle and some thread, she began embroidering her underwear with the names and numbers listed in her phone in case Isis found it and took it away. Khulka had been to school, and unlike many of the women there, she knew how to read and write. She also sewed other women’s clothes with their loved ones’ names and numbers so that they would not be forgotten.”

“Before the picture was taken, [Khulka] cut her daughter’s hair to make her look like a boy and stop them being separated.”

“The other imprisoned women envied Khulka’s grey hair, thinking it might save her from being seized. They tried to imitate it using ash.”

“The men drove [Zahra] to a house in Raqqa belonging to an Isis member who kept her as his slave, then sold her on after four months to another Isis fighter. He found her disobedient and sold her on straight away to a fighter of only 18”

“For two days, calls went back and forth between Leila and a smuggler called Abdullah, who eventually helped her to escape.”

So much for going with the flow…
 
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