Has the #MeToo movement become a witch-hunt to a significant degree?

[Xantippe]

#MeToo, for all its unverified and unverifiable allegations does have one effect – as a weapon to undermine and neutralize any moral standing that legitimate opponents to the incursion of cultural Marxism might have.

As we’ve previously discussed, MeToo has mainly brought down powerful liberal men.

 

[PetraG]

Where on earth has this thread gone? Good grief! Who on earth got this conversation off on cooperating with totalitarians? Were we invaded? Does someone really think we’re going to be? What does that have to do with Matt Lauer and Harvey Weinstein and Al Franken and Charlie Rose and all those other men who have admitted to getting away with being utter PIGS all these years? I don’t know who feels nostalgia for the days when women were told they had to put up with that kind of thing from men who had some “position” in this world, but I say “good riddance.” The guys at the bottom of the economic ladder haven’t been able to get away with that kind of thing for about 30 years. It is about time that decency caught up with the Important Men.

When men do disgusting things, women are going to say what happened, and now because–look how the time has flown!!–it is the 21st century, they are going to say it out loud and stop worrying that they’re going to be made out the liar or a whiner or a “tease” or not tough enough to make it in a “man’s world” for drawing a line and saying “cut that out, you are being a pig.” They’ve looked around and realized that, hey, it is our world, too, and we’re really sick of putting up with this $%# and the stupid excuses made to cover it up or put us off. Enough, already!! Cut it out!! If you’re afraid of being unjustly accused, then you’d better take steps to protect yourself. Does that offend you? Well…WELCOME TO OUR WORLD, GUYS!!! That’s always been OUR job! You can shoulder a little of the load, it will not kill you!

The whole rest of the world can decide to believe any particular accuser or not, but men had better get it through their heads that the days when they could automatically say “no one will believe you” or “they’re going to say you were asking for it, look at that dress” are OVER.

Is somebody going to lie? Well, yes they are. Guess what? Why didn’t it bother you about all the men who having been lying? Were you running around like Chicken Little worried about the lives and the reputations they have been ruining all these years? No? Well, maybe now that the shoe is on the other foot, too, you will.

What’s that you say? People will just stop hiring women, you say? That might have worked, back before there were any women doing the hiring. It is a bit too late to put that genie back into the bottle. Women are in the workforce, they aren’t just the secretaries and the file clerks but the business owners, doctors, the lawyers and the executives, too, and they are not going anywhere, and by the way, their fathers aren’t going to let them be treated like they ought to apologize for not being guys, either.

Get used to it and honestly, shame on anybody who doesn’t want to see both women and men treated with respect at all times by all people because they are too fond of their thoughtless jokes and flippant comments to learn to control their tongues and their hands and think of the feelings of others for a change. It is sad that this is a “conservative” vs “liberal” thing at all. It shouldnt’ be. I’d say that among many conservatives, it is not.

 

[HarryStotle]

Here’s some more detail on Yazidi women not “going with the flow.”

Please note that modern, liberated, western women are notably absent from your examples of women NOT “going with the flow.”

Also, the fact that you have argued that even delivering a baby has become an intolerable burden for modern women seems to undermine your overall thesis of the courage and fearlessness of women. That is to say nothing of your earlier position that women positively depend upon cosmetics and proper apparel to muster even a modicum of confidence in the face of daily living.

I wasn’t arguing, by the way, that women in general haven’t ever been courageous or paragons of a host of virtues, I just think there is strong evidence that a growing number of women in modern western, secular, societies have become frail, entitled, narcissistic, and preoccupied by frivolities. And so have many modern men.

 

[PetraG]

I wasn’t arguing, by the way, that women in general haven’t ever been courageous or paragons of a host of virtues, I just think there is strong evidence that a growing number of women in modern western, secular, societies have become frail, entitled, narcissistic, and preoccupied by frivolities. And so have many modern men.

What does that have to do with whether or not men can endure having some woman say they were behaving in an inappropriate manner? Do you think men are too slow to figure out social rules? That they can’t keep up with the expectations? I don’t think the expectations are really that hard for a man over the age of, say, 14. I work at a high school, and young men with surprisingly little impulse control somehow go all day without getting sent to the dean of students because they can’t understand the ettiquette involved with being a student at a co-ed high school.

If high school boys as young as 14 can learn to control themselves for the length of a school day and male high school teachers can conduct themselves all day long so as to avoid unjust accusations of sexual harassment against female students and female colleagues, I feel very confident that grown Catholic men will have no trouble meeting the standards in their workplaces.

The world is not going to be flooded with men unjustly accused of sexual harassment. It isn’t going to happen. Everyone is going to adjust just fine, only this time there won’t be a certain class of us who think they have carte blanche to do what they want without ever being called on it. That was a bad situation. Let us all hope it will become far more rare than it has been.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

#MeToo, for all its unverified and unverifiable allegations does have one effect – as a weapon to undermine and neutralize any moral standing that legitimate opponents to the incursion of cultural Marxism might have.

As we’ve previously discussed, MeToo has mainly brought down powerful liberal men.

“Brought down,” for the most part, has yet to be determined.

We’ll see what happens to those, like Weinstein, so “brought down.” Perhaps they are being sacrificed for a larger cause – the complete undermining of the rule of law, since the law and lawmakers cannot now be trusted.

It has definitely created an environment of indiscriminate “bringing down.”

I am skeptical of all social movements that gain immediate traction, intensity and momentum, especially in these times. The manipulation and orchestration is palpable. So the big question is, “What is the end goal?”

People who just “buy into” these social movements without questioning them are naive beyond belief.

 

[HarryStotle]

What does that have to do with whether or not men can endure having some woman say they were behaving in an inappropriate manner? Do you think men are too slow to figure out social rules? That they can’t keep up with the expectations?

Actually, in case you haven’t noticed, the social rules and expectations are in constant flux, thanks to progressive liberals. Vaunted social “rule” one day, the epitome of sexist, racist, homophobic xenophobia the next.

Victorian attitudes became free love became rape culture became choose your gender became no such thing as gender in short order. Let’s pick a social rule and stick with it longer than a minute or two, shall we?

Yeah, we are all too slow for progressive liberals, unless you are at the front of the pack deciding the direction in which the bandwagon will careen and veer uncontrollably in the next second.

Slow is relative.

 

[PetraG]

#MeToo, for all its unverified and unverifiable allegations does have one effect – as a weapon to undermine and neutralize any moral standing that legitimate opponents to the incursion of cultural Marxism might have.

The allegations are not unverified and unverifiable. A great number have been verified, because so many of the accused have been so flagrant in their violations over the years that they had no choice but to admit to their habitual offenses!

Does this concern you…instance after instance after instance of habitual offenders who have been doing this kind of thing sometimes for decades while everyone makes excuses for them or accuses their targets of being “too sensitive” or “taking it the wrong way” or secretly welcoming the disgusting advances because they saw it as a way to “get ahead” in their careers?

Why are the old lies taken for granted as the way things are and yet the possibility of some future lies are taken as the end of Freedom and Western Civilization As We Know It?

 

[Xantippe]

Please note that modern, liberated, western women are notably absent from your examples of women NOT “going with the flow.”

Can you give me an example of modern, liberated, Western women happily becoming the slaves and concubines of invaders/oppressors en masse? (I’m aware that particular individuals do weird things.)

Also, the fact that you have argued that even delivering a baby has become an intolerable burden for modern women seems to undermine your overall thesis of the courage and fearlessness of women.

I don’t think I said anything about an “intolerable burden”.

Also, there’s no “even delivering a baby,” as it’s been recognized since the Bible as a uniquely horrible experience. As the folk at the OB blog I read point out, childbirth was so dramatically terrible in traditional societies that it was literally viewed as a curse from God.

I don’t think I said that women are overall courageous and fearless. And men aren’t either, actually.

I was, however, arguing with SuperLuigi’s view that women are quizlings and collaborators and always have been–that’s a really gross view, as well as demonstrably false.

I wasn’t arguing, by the way, that women in general haven’t ever been courageous or paragons of a host of virtues, I just think there is strong evidence that a growing number of women in modern western, secular, societies have become frail, entitled, narcissistic, and preoccupied by frivolities. And so have many modern men.

By entitled, do you mean, “unwilling to accept harassment and sexual assault in silence”? (That being the subject of the thread.)

That doesn’t sound frail, entitled, narcissistic or preoccupied by frivolities to me.

“Brought down,” for the most part, has yet to be determined.

There is a long list of powerful liberal men who have been fired or had to resign.

I am skeptical of all social movements that gain immediate traction, intensity and momentum, especially in these times. The manipulation and orchestration is palpable. So the big question is, “What is the end goal?”

Social media speeds things up nowadays. They get big fast.

See also the alt-right.

People who just “buy into” these social movements without questioning them are naive beyond belief.

I agree. Everybody should do their own research.

But at the same time, it’s also kind of dumb to see an enormous pile of evidence and disregard it because it doesn’t suit us.

 

[PetraG]

Actually, in case you haven’t noticed, the social rules and expectations are in constant flux, thanks to progressive liberals. Vaunted social “rule” one day, the epitome of sexist, racist, homophobic xenophobia the next.

Victorian attitudes became free love became rape culture became choose your gender became no such thing as gender in short order. Let’s pick a social rule and stick with it longer than a minute or two, shall we?

Yeah, we are all too slow for progressive liberals, unless you are at the front of the pack deciding the direction in which the bandwagon will careen and veer uncontrollably in the next second.

Slow is relative.

We all figured out how to use an iPhone, even though we were born when there were nothing but party lines. 21st century men have known nothing but constant change since they were born. They can figure this out. It is not that hard.

In this case, it is REALLY not that hard, because we are talking about conforming to social rules that decent men have always followed.

If you didn’t like “free love,” then why has a return to sexual boundaries gotten you in such a twist? I really do not get why decent Catholic men are not welcoming the day when all men are expected to act as they always have. It does not compute.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

#MeToo, for all its unverified and unverifiable allegations does have one effect – as a weapon to undermine and neutralize any moral standing that legitimate opponents to the incursion of cultural Marxism might have.

The allegations are not unverified and unverifiable. A great number have been verified, because so many of the accused have been so flagrant in their violations over the years that they had no choice but to admit to their habitual offenses!

Does this concern you…instance after instance after instance of habitual offenders who have been doing this kind of thing sometimes for decades while everyone makes excuses for them or accuses their targets of being “too sensitive” or “taking it the wrong way” or secretly welcoming the disgusting advances because they saw it as a way to “get ahead” in their careers?

Why are the old lies taken for granted as the way things are and yet the possibility of some future lies are taken as the end of Freedom and Western Civilization As We Know It?

Then let’s invoke the rule of law and bring these fiends to actual justice instead of staged and pretended outrage. Their heinous deeds ought to be treated very seriously, and appropriate and severe punishment brought to bear.

Are you for this? I am.

Will that happen? I doubt it because liberal types don’t believe in personal responsibility nor in morality. The outrage is feigned in order to bring about social change; definitely not for the sake of strengthening belief in personal responsibility.

We’ll talk again when these culprits are brought to account for what they have done – I am supposing that will be at the final judgement and not before.

 

[Xantippe]

In this case, it is REALLY not that hard, because we are talking about conforming to social rules that decent men have always followed.

If you didn’t like “free love,” then why has a return to sexual boundaries gotten you in such a twist? I really do not get why decent Catholic men are not welcoming the day when all men are expected to act as they always have. It does not compute.

That is exactly right. Any decent man should find all of this very intuitive.

I was recently showing the tea and consent video to my husband and he got it immediately and thought it was funny.

None of things are hard to master for a guy who has always behaved decently, kindly, chastely and respectfully.

I realize, though, that it is probably a genuine struggle for somebody like Weinstein or Franken who has been doing gross things for decades.

 

[PetraG]

Then let’s invoke the rule of law and bring these fiends to actual justice instead of staged and pretended outrage. Their heinous deeds ought to be treated very seriously, and appropriate and severe punishment brought to bear…

You don’t drag every offender at work into the DA’s office, do you? I really do not believe you want to do it now. This is more Chicken Little, more faux-helpless “if it is isn’t criminal and something you can prove against them in court and put them into jail for then what can you do?” The “if they don’t want to throw them in jail, then what is going on can’t be that bad” bit just does not cut it.

Honestly, I think some men would get more worked up if someone complained that their lunch was being stolen from the lunchroom refrigerator than they are about this kind of thing. Considering that you guys would never sneak Cheetos out of someone else’s lunch box, why are you in such a tizzy about this?

This is worse than getting your lunch stolen. Trust us.

 

[HarryStotle]

If you didn’t like “free love,” then why has a return to sexual boundaries gotten you in such a twist? I really do not get why decent Catholic men are not welcoming the day when all men are expected to act as they always have. It does not compute.

Oh I welcome that day alright. I just don’t think that the purveyors of debauchery and anti-morality over the years will be those who suddenly will lead the vanguard of moral righteousness and usher in the kingdom of heaven. Colour me skeptical on that. Especially, at a time that huge political stakes are at risk.

What does not compute is how quickly and completely Catholics have bought into the progressive, post-modernist agenda.

 

[Xantippe]

Then let’s invoke the rule of law and bring these fiends to actual justice instead of staged and pretended outrage. Their heinous deeds ought to be treated very seriously, and appropriate and severe punishment brought to bear.

Are you for this? I am.

I’m all for Weinstein getting prosecuted.

However, there are people like Franken or Joe Biden who have a track record of doing gross but not seriously illegal things that the police will not be interested in prosecuting and probably shouldn’t–but the guys shouldn’t get a pass for it.

I think you’re making a mistake in believing that there are only crimes and non-crimes, and that non-crimes are never a big deal or worthy of social opprobrium. Activities do not need to be illegal or worthy of prison time to be wrong or disgusting. Take, for example, your feelings about women wearing makeup. Would you be willing to accept the argument that if you don’t want to prosecute makeup wearers, you don’t really care about women wearing makeup?

In society, we have a number of different layers of rules. There’s the law, there’s church teaching, there are local social standards (in my area you MUST write thank you notes), company policy, school rules and there are also household rules. You’ll notice the law is primarily concerned with legality. In other spheres of life, there are many possible rule violations that are a big deal, but not actually illegal. I can’t, thank goodness, get tossed into jail for forgetting a thank you card.

It’s very odd for a conservative not to recognize the existence of social standards that exist parallel to and overlapping the law.

 

[Xantippe]

Oh I welcome that day alright. I just don’t think that the purveyors of debauchery and anti-morality over the years will be those who suddenly will lead the vanguard of moral righteousness and usher in the kingdom of heaven. Colour me skeptical on that. Especially, at a time that huge political stakes are at risk.

See Matthew 21. Jesus tells the chief priests and the scribes, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the harlots believed him; and even when you saw it, you did not afterward repent and believe him."

The tax collectors and prostitutes recognized truths that the chief priests and scribes could not accept.

What does not compute is how quickly and completely Catholics have bought into the progressive, post-modernist agenda.

Not raping and not sexually harassing?

 

[PetraG]

Oh I welcome that day alright. I just don’t think that the purveyors of debauchery and anti-morality over the years will be those who suddenly will lead the vanguard of moral righteousness and usher in the kingdom of heaven. Colour me skeptical on that. Especially, at a time that huge political stakes are at risk.

What does not compute is how quickly and completely Catholics have bought into the progressive, post-modernist agenda.

Actually, it turns out that the non-arbitrary nature of moral law does sometimes get through to people. I have had conversations with young relatives who could not be less impressed with the Church or those of us in it, and yet their “evolving” attitudes towards sex are, well…I try not to say to them: “I could have told you this.” You’d think they were discovering all of this for the first time. Moral law preserves the dignity of the human person! WHO KNEW?

Even a blind pig finds an acorn, once in awhile.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Then let’s invoke the rule of law and bring these fiends to actual justice instead of staged and pretended outrage. Their heinous deeds ought to be treated very seriously, and appropriate and severe punishment brought to bear…

You don’t drag every offender at work into the DA’s office, do you? I really do not believe you want to do it now. This is more Chicken Little, more faux-helpless “if it is isn’t criminal and something you can prove against them in court and put them into jail for then what can you do?” The “if they don’t want to throw them in jail, then what is going on can’t be that bad” bit just does not cut it.

Honestly, I think some men would get more worked up if someone complained that their lunch was being stolen from the lunchroom refrigerator than they are about this kind of thing. Considering that you guys would never sneak Cheetos out of someone else’s lunch box, why are you in such a tizzy about this?

This is worse than getting your lunch stolen. Trust us.

Then make the punishment fit the crime and be clear what does or does not constitute criminal or even unacceptable behaviour.

Should women be allowed to dress provocatively in the workplace? Why should they?

Let’s begin by defining what is or is not provocative and why it is or isn’t. Clarifying all the terms of the issue is the first step.

Let’s also begin by NOT assuming all the terms are clear or that women have been absolutely angelic in this.

NBC has apparently decided to institute positively draconian laws governing office relationships, where snitching on your coworkers for being “too friendly” with each other and possibly getting them fired is now policy.

New rules. Fun times.

Meanwhile, just two years ago Conservatives in Canada lost the election partly because they had initiated a law that endorsed reporting spousal abuse. It was seen by liberal types as potentially targeting some ethnic or religious groups, and as such was characterized as xenophobic.

 

[HarryStotle]

I’m all for Weinstein getting prosecuted.

However, there are people like Franken or Joe Biden who have a track record of doing gross but not seriously illegal things that the police will not be interested in prosecuting and probably shouldn’t–but the guys shouldn’t get a pass for it.

Look, if the infraction is serious enough to get you fired and lose your livelihood or position over it, then it should be prosecuted. If not, a public tar and feathering and the ruin of your reputation should not be an option for “not seriously illegal things.”

These should be dealt with by those in the proper position of authority and not by lynch mob justice. The Internet and social media has grown far too opinionated, all-encompassing and powerful for that. The goto or default recourse for local problems should not be the World Wide Web of popular uninformed opinion.

 

[Xantippe]

Look, if the infraction is serious enough to get you fired and lose your livelihood or position over it, then it should be prosecuted.

People get fired over all sorts of things that aren’t illegal.

For example, let’s say that a hotel concierge had a habit of using racial slurs to guests. Would he keep his job? Probably not. Should he be prosecuted? Nope.

Or let’s say I have a babysitter that I think is not doing a good enough job. Should she be prosecuted for being lazy and inattentive?

My sis has fired a couple of store employees for being on their phones. Should they have been jailed?

 

[DarkLight]

I feel like I should once again point out that “sexual harassment” is not a crime. A guy can go around all day telling women he likes their tits and gesturing to his crotch and that’s not actually against the law. He still should be fired for doing it at work.