Has the #MeToo movement become a witch-hunt to a significant degree?

[HarryStotle]

See Matthew 21. Jesus tells the chief priests and the scribes, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. 32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the harlots believed him; and even when you saw it, you did not afterward repent and believe him."

The tax collectors and prostitutes recognized truths that the chief priests and scribes could not accept.

Oh, I accept the tax collectors and harlots part, but I don’t see mention of make-believe celebrities and pseudo-journalists in the quote. The Truth won’t set them free because they traffic in untruths to the point that truth has become unrecognizable and they see it as their worst enemy.

 

[PetraG]

Then make the punishment fit the crime and be clear what does or does not constitute criminal or even unacceptable behaviour.

Should women be allowed to dress provocatively in the workplace? Why should they?

Let’s begin by defining what is or is not provocative and why it is or isn’t. Clarifying all the terms of the issue is the first step.

Let’s also begin by NOT assuming all the terms are clear or that women have been absolutely angelic in this.

NBC has apparently decided to institute positively draconian laws governing office relationships, where snitching on your coworkers for being “too friendly” with each other and possibly getting them fired is now policy.

New rules. Fun times.

Meanwhile, just two years ago Conservatives in Canada lost the election partly because they had initiated a law that endorsed reporting spousal abuse. It was seen by liberal types as potentially targeting some ethnic or religious groups, and as such was characterized as xenophobic.

Really…how “provocative” is the dress of most working women? Since when did the employer not decide how employees could or could not dress? Provocative is what your employer says is provocative, just as casual-but-not-too-casual for casual Friday is what they say it is. Legislatures do not come up with this. The rules for what is a hostile environment that legislatures do make really are not that hard, either. We’re talking about some no-brainer Golden Rule territory, here.

I don’t know why you’re making this out to be that hard. If you are rude to people at work, some people are going to think you are hilarious and some people are going to call HR and tell you to cut it out. You learn who likes your jokes and who doesn’t or you just play it a bit safer at work.

I don’t know why anyone is pretending this is so new or so hard. Most men I know are not at all confused about what women find rude. They may resent that they can’t make the same kind of cracks out loud at work that they do in their off hours among the like-minded, but they are not confused about where the boundaries are. Again: High school students get this stuff. It does not require an advanced class in the Psychology of Women.

 

[PetraG]

I feel like I should once again point out that “sexual harassment” is not a crime. A guy can go around all day telling women he likes their tits and gesturing to his crotch and that’s not actually against the law. He still should be fired for doing it at work.

It is an offense for employers to allow it, and the businesses who do allow it will get fined. This is not entirely outside the realm of the law. It is just that the law expects businesses to keep their houses in order.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

Look, if the infraction is serious enough to get you fired and lose your livelihood or position over it, then it should be prosecuted.

People get fired over all sorts of things that aren’t illegal.

For example, let’s say that a hotel concierge had a habit of using racial slurs to guests. Would he keep his job? Probably not. Should he be prosecuted? Nope.

Or let’s say I have a babysitter that I think is not doing a good enough job. Should she be prosecuted for being lazy and inattentive?

My sis has fired a couple of store employees for being on their phones. Should they have been jailed?

Should they be tried and shamed on social media by the World Wide Web of public opinion and lose their dignity and all self-respect because of doing or saying something – on par with things we have all been guilty of – that could have been misinterpreted or done in a moment of human frailty?

Yeah, I know it gives us all great comfort and feelings of superiority to see ourselves as morally upright and infallible judges, especially when the whole World Wide Web sits beneath our feet, but we need to resist that temptation.

I am a believer in the principle of subsidiarity. Local issues and problems should be dealt with at a local level by proper authorities, the brunt of the power of the entire Internet of uninformed opinion should not be used callously – in fact, I would argue, never be used at all.

The Internet is a powerful tool, don’t presume the forces of evil haven’t noticed its potential utility.

 

[PetraG]

Should they be tried and shamed on social media by the World Wide Web of public opinion and lose their dignity and all self-respect because of doing or saying something – on par with things we have all been guilty of – that could have been misinterpreted or done in a moment of human frailty?

Yeah, I know it gives us all great comfort and feelings of superiority to see ourselves as morally upright and infallible judges, especially when the whole World Wide Web sits beneath our feet, but we need to resist that temptation.

I am a believer in the principle of subsidiarity. Local issues and problems should be dealt with at a local level by proper authorities, the brunt of the power of the entire Internet of uninformed opinion should not be used callously – in fact, I would argue, never be used at all.

The Internet is a powerful tool, don’t presume the forces of evil haven’t noticed its potential utility.

Lots of forces misuse the internet. Some cause a great deal more consternation.

If you’re suggesting that Twitter accusations are a serous near occasion of sin, I say “Amen.” A great many people agree with us on that. I wish that ESPN and the local news quit broadcasting them; they are not news.
They’re gossip. Even gossip that is true doesn’t deserve that much attention.

Is the #MeToo movement, being based on Twitter, particularly at risk for that reason to becoming the work of the Devil? To the extent that it is based on a means of communication that is so prone to rash use, I’d say “yes.” Having said that, I do not think that this serious danger means the entire thing can be written off as “a witch-hunt to a significant degree.” That is saying not that it poses a danger of being false, but that it is so false and based on so many accusations that are utterly made up (that’s what a witch hunt is) that it should be dismissed. No. I find the means unwise. I find the idea of people raising their hands and being counted as way over due. The truth is, when people find out they’re not alone, the chorus of “what? I’m not the only one?” Is going to get very loud before it dies down.

(I am one of those curmugeons who does not want to hear the 15 neighbors of some victim or some person charged with a crime give their character assessment of the parties involved for some breathless local news reporter, either. It doesn’t belong on the news.)

In other words, I wish Twitter were not the medium. I don’t wish that everyone who is sitting up and saying they have a story to tell would just sit down and shut up.

 

[Mi_Rose]

I have seven children all born naturally by which I mean unmedicated childbirth. Painful as all get out.
But this is about my daughters. They each have four children. One of my daughters had HELP syndrome all four times with lots of bedrest and induced labors which hurt more than natural ones. During her third labor she hemorrhaged. She required two units of platelets to help her blood clot and two units of packed cells. Labor is work. It is more painful than just about anything else and it rips you apart. But did you get that she went on to have another baby acter almost bleeding to death. Her courage astounds me.
Having said that comparing pain never ends with a winner. I would just like every man who complains about his pain to have to go through labor once.

 

[Xantippe]

I have seven children all born naturally by which I mean unmedicated childbirth. Painful as all get out.

But this is about my daughters. They each have four children. One of my daughters had HELP syndrome all four times with lots of bedrest and induced labors which hurt more than natural ones. During her third labor she hemorrhaged. She required two units of platelets to help her blood clot and two units of packed cells. Labor is work. It is more painful than just about anything else and it rips you apart. But did you get that she went on to have another baby acter almost bleeding to death. Her courage astounds me.

Having said that comparing pain never ends with a winner. I would just like every man who complains about his pain to have to go through labor once.

Yeah, the friend I mentioned earlier got pre-eclampsia after her first delivery and had her kidneys shut down, hemorrhaged after her second baby was born and is now about half-way through her pregnancy with her third.

Given my friend’s track record, I can only imagine what is coming next. fingers crossed

I also can’t even imagine what it’s like having and recovering from 3 or 4 c-sections–and yet quite a number of our CAF sisters have done that.

I remember reading a piece by G.K. Chesterton years ago where he was talking about the fact that after the Great War, people started endorsing votes for women because of the great heroism shown by English nurses at the front. Chesterton wondered, did these people not previously realize how brave women had to be to go through pregnancy and childbirth?

And yet allegedly Christian men see women as essentially fifth-columnists…It’s just too much.

Edited to add: An email friend of mine points out an interesting difference between childbirth injuries and combat injuries. It is quite common for mothers to literally have a baby cut out of their belly via major abdominal surgery, be stitched up, and then six hours later, be given full responsible for the care of a newborn. This is totally nuts, and yet that’s life in the modern US.

 

[Xantippe]

I am a believer in the principle of subsidiarity. Local issues and problems should be dealt with at a local level by proper authorities, the brunt of the power of the entire Internet of uninformed opinion should not be used callously – in fact, I would argue, never be used at all.

The idea behind subsidiarity is that problems be dealt with at the lowest possible effective level.

That means that if a wrong isn’t being dealt with satisfactorily at low levels, you can take it up the chain until it is.

 

[Xantippe]

Here’s what (as a woman) I hear from alt-right and manosphere guys:

“You are an irresponsible, treacherous, parasitic, lying subhuman, useful only for breeding purposes. Come join our glorious crusade to save Western Civilization and Christendom from Cultural Marxism and militant Islam!”

No thanks!

Nobody who treats me as some sort of lesser life form is going to get my support and it shouldn’t be a big mystery why. Also, the Western Civilization and Christendom that I care about doesn’t treat women like that.

I also don’t think that destroying what’s left of Western Civilization and Christianity is the path to saving Western Civilization and Christianity.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Not raping and not sexually harassing?

Strawman argument.

---

At this point, Xantippe, bridges need to be crossed. You’re not going anywhere if you are going to sit here and hash the argument or subject yourself to the abuse over and over and over. If you’re being told you’re subhuman and aren’t exaggerating, then I think you need to stop listening to those channels or those people and stop reading those websites.

I could tell you there are MRAS and MGTOWS out there who don’t say that stuff, but I know I’d be wasting my time posting links and naming names because people on this site either don’t look or trust in Google’s liberal bias.

It is not sufficient here on CAF to just rehash the same garbage over and over and over. It’s counterproductive and more is expected of you as a valued leader on these forums. If it bothers you that much, you need to get counseling or cut them off----or both. I think if metoo was going to help, it already would have.

There’s people out there who are going to spend the better part of their lives complaining about one relationship thing or another on the internet.

Don’t be that person.

 

[Xantippe]

I could tell you there are MRAS and MGTOWS out there who don’t say that stuff, but I know I’d be wasting my time posting links and naming names because people on this site either don’t look or trust in Google’s liberal bias.

I can see everything I’ve mentioned on this thread. Heck, ChunkMonk was talking about taking away women’s voting and jury rights. Did that not even register on you?

It is not sufficient here on CAF to just rehash the same garbage over and over and over. It’s counterproductive and more is expected of you as a valued leader on these forums.

Thanks?

I think the reason we keep “rehashing” is because the same stuff keeps come up over and over again.

For example, HarryStotle wanting everything to be a police matter or ignored…even though sexual harassment isn’t a criminal offense.

Also, your thing about women being historically quizlings was not awesome and is also clearly false.

I think if metoo was going to help, it already would have.

MeToo has only been going for a few months–that’s nothing.

There’s people out there who are going to spend the better part of their lives complaining about one relationship thing or another on the internet. Don’t be that person.

I’d like to see you start telling your Red Pill brethren that.

I have a pretty great life, but your Red Pill friends for the most part obviously don’t. They hate and fear women while wanting women and that produces some pretty ugly character deformations, as well as being oddly similar to some kinds of Islamic dysfunction.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I’ve been reading through a lot of responses on here lately, and I don’t think the metoo movement is going to make much of dent in this long-term for the following reasons:

1. Clearly, the buck stops with Islam as it always does with movements that are co-opted by the far left—even the core message of that movement is destroyed never to rise again under 7th Century religious rule.
2. It’s pretty clear to me that a lot of men women who use the #metoo hashtag did the things they did knowing on some level it would get them ahead in life. They may even only be speaking out just to get their 15 minutes of internet fame or because their careers are winding down. Like it or not, that is very different from a being a teenage sex trafficking victim in Manchester by Muslim immigrant men or gang-raped in South Africa just because you are white or an immigrant from another African country.
3. Blaming third parties. In sexual harassment training, it is very clear that if the victim does not want to report whatever happened, then reporting agents are instructed not to do so. The consequence is if something really did happen there are statutes of limitations. In a just society, even people who screw up in the worst ways have rights and life does go on. The best around this is educate young people better about sex in general, and as Matty Walsh says “are you really all that surprised this goes on when you remove Catholic values from society”?
4. It won’t be long before a lot of metoo supporters will be okay with everything from trans-rights to polygamy to child brides, which is going to be very bad for young women So they lose almost automatically on any feminist angle.
5. Metoo has resulted in ridiculous accusations against good men. Remember that the next time you ask “gee, where are all the good men at?” as you feed your 12 cats. Hope that useless virtue-signaling on the internet was worth it.
6. Metoo probably did used to mean something, but its activists don’t have the main goal of eliminating sexual harassment. I’d think differently if Hollywood and the mainstream Western media would shed light on Sweden being the rape of capital of Europe, that REAL rape culture is in the Congo, and South Africa is the rape capital of the world. OR that teenage Muslim girls sleep in their street clothes in German refugee camps while the men get selfies with Frau Merkel by day and hunt to harass by night.** Unfortunately, It’s just another flavour of the month that will at some point be discarded when it’s no longer convenient.

To conclude: In the end, the metoo movement will not be there for women in the end just like any other movement.

** = this is the point where someone else gets really uncomfortable and asks for links, which tells me he’she knows what I’ve said is true and has no other response.

 

[Xantippe]

Clearly, the buck stops with Islam as it always does with movements that are co-opted by the far left

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ulted-during-the-hajj/?utm_term=.8af7583eb69f

There’s apparently a hashtag now for #MosqueMeToo.

Like it or not, that is very different from a being a teenage sex trafficking victim in Manchester by Muslim immigrant men or gang-raped in South Africa just because you are white or an immigrant from another African country.

I don’t think you realize that female victims of crime in the US are predominantly the victims of people they know. This is pretty clear if you look at murder stats (which are as objective as it gets).

Percent of Women Killed by Husbands or Boyfriends - The Atlantic

“Strangers perpetrated just 16 percent of all female homicides, fewer than acquaintances and just slightly more than parents.”

So, we have to accept the fact that strangers are statistically speaking not that dangerous to women–the people we know and trust are actually more dangerous. No doubt there are different patterns of victimization in other countries, just as US men have a different pattern of victimization.

In a just society, even people who screw up in the worst ways have rights and life does go on.

Sure, and people they’ve hurt have the right to speak up and say what happened to them–there’s no statute of limitations on speech.

as Matty Walsh says “are you really all that surprised this goes on when you remove Catholic values from society”?

Maria Goretti was murdered by an attempted rapist in an extremely Catholic culture.

Let’s not act as though being super duper Catholic is some sort of cure-all for sin.

Metoo has resulted in ridiculous accusations against good men. Remember that the next time you ask “gee, where are all the good men at?” as you feed your 12 cats. Hope that useless virtue-signaling on the internet was worth it.

My husband won’t let me get a cat.

I’d think differently if Hollywood and the mainstream Western media would shed light on Sweden being the rape of capital of Europe, that REAL rape culture is in the Congo, and South Africa is the rape capital of the world. OR that teenage Muslim girls sleep in their street clothes in German refugee camps while the men get selfies with Frau Merkel by day and hunt to harass by night.**

I talk about what I know.

People who know other things can talk about what they know.

 

[Xantippe]

Metoo has resulted in ridiculous accusations against good men. Remember that the next time you ask “gee, where are all the good men at?” as you feed your 12 cats. Hope that useless virtue-signaling on the internet was worth it.

I haven’t seen any whining about “where are all the good men at?” from the remaining single female posters on the thread.

I also suspect that your and my definitions of “good men” may be different in many respects. For example, my definition would include “understands and values consent.”

I have to say, it’s been like pulling teeth to get a number of the male posters on the thread to make any sort of gesture toward respect for consent. For me, that would strongly suggest that those posters aren’t (by my definition) good men. (Not that that’s the only requirement, but it’s part of the rock bottom minimum for human decency.)

 

[SuperLuigi]

Do you REALLY think that anyone on here is against consent?

 

[Xantippe]

Do you REALLY think that anyone on here is against consent?

Yep.

I have two pretty solid candidates. In a previous discussion, one of the two was having a really hard time (!) understanding how you could possibly tell if a woman was enthusiastically consenting. He thought it was impossible and impractical.

I take it you’re for consent? Very happy to hear it!

 

[PetraG]

Strawman argument.

At this point, Xantippe, bridges need to be crossed. You’re not going anywhere if you are going to sit here and hash the argument or subject yourself to the abuse over and over and over…

Don’t be that person.

How we wish the whole #MeTwo thing were based a strawman argument. Think again.

The honest desire to change the social rules so that sexual assaults are not hushed up or smoothed over when they are committed by persons in powerful-enough positions is not based on some bogeyman who does not exist.

Yes, a bridge has been crossed. We are not going back.

Sometimes, I think decent men are far too naive about what other men are willing to do when they think they are above consequences. I have to believe that if they knew they would have taken care of this themselves instead of disbelieving those women who did come forward.

We have news for you: We are decent women, and we have known for too long how many of these stories are true and how often offenders get off scot-free and it is the target who suffers, instead. We know this kind of story has been covered up and offenders have been protected. We don’t have to “believe” anybody. We have been there. Our friends have been there, our sisters and mothers have been there. We know.

Do not tell us that we’re the ones falling for a story being told on the internet. We know better. We are here to tell you we do. You can believe it or not, but it isn’t going to change our minds about what we know to be true without ever having gotten a bit of it off of the internet. We are done with being gaslighted by the actual offenders, too. We are not going to back down just because someone lobs the f-bomb (FEMINIST!!) in our direction.

Women are finally saying “Enough.” We are done waiting for the naive to catch up. They can catch up when they are convinced, they can make up their own minds when they are satisifed, but we are done waiting. We do not need anyone’s permission to implement such minimal social rules as we are suggesting. We are done with waiting for the “right people” to believe that we are not lying to you, not making up stories because we want to ruin someone or because we feel like throwing ourselves a pity party or make excuses for some failure they imagine we are trying to compensate for. We don’t want anyone to go through life like this any more. We want people who want a reputation for decency to actually act as decently in private as they have been pretending in public that they do. That is not too much to ask.

If you would be willing to put up with far less in our place, as we have been doing up until now, then when it is your turn you can put up with it. That is your choice. We’re not going to do it, and we’re not going to ask anyone else to do it, either.

 

[Xantippe]

That was pretty spectacular, PetraG.

 

[PetraG]

That was pretty spectacular, PetraG.

If they don’t want to believe it, well, I don’t know what I can do for them. They can make their minds up when they’re good and ready, and we just have to accept that will take awhile for some and never happen for others.

Oh, well. I don’t have a cat, either, but I do have a life. Anyone who doesn’t get what I’m getting at is just not ready to hear it. I need to leave this circular never-dying mess of a thread and really go…

 

[SuperLuigi]

You know, Xantippe, I’ve tried to extend to the olive branch to you on here, but all you do is slap it away. Go down with the ship if you wish.

@Darklight you have the same choice.

Just keep in mind that when you others give people advice, your comments on here are duly noted.