Has there been any other Jew besides Jesus who claimed to be divine?

[MH84]

I know that there were quite a few before and after Jesus who claimed to be the Messiah. But did any Jew, besides Jesus, ever claim to be divine, or a god, or the one God Himself? If so, when, who was he, and what happened to him?

 

[MH84]

If there hasn’t, isnt this a proof to non-Christians that Jesus is more than an ordinary prophet?

Why would a man risk his life and ridicule by claiming he was divine?

However, I guess some argue whether or not Jesus Himself actually did claim to be God or not. But that is beside the point.

 

[ralphinal]

Don’t you love one sided conversations?

I do not know of any who claimed to be devine. Even if Jesus never said it outright, that was what many people heard him to imply.

There were a good number who claimed to be messiah.

Here is a Wiki site. I know, I hate using wiki, too, but this is good info.

Jesus was not the first, but it seems like his claims stuck around. I wonder why…

 

[Mirdath]

If there hasn’t, isnt this a proof to non-Christians that Jesus is more than an ordinary prophet?

It is just as much a proof that he was uniquely insane, uniquely canny, or uniquely deified – in other words, worthless.

There were scads of would-be messiahs, especially around that time (unrest in a conquered province tends to have that kind of effect); whether some claimed to be divine is something I don’t know, but given the self-deification practiced by cult leaders, rulers, and lunatics throughout history I expect there probably were a few cases.

 

[dessert]

St Augustine’s argument that divinity is not a quality of God, but that “God is__ divinity itself.”

 

[Claire_from_DE]

I should think it very unlikely since that would be blasphemy and the penalty for that was death, usually by stoning I think. I mean, look what happened to Jesus.

According to scripture, Jesus did claim divinity.
Mark 3:11-12 And whenever unclean spirits saw him they would fall down before him and shout, “you are the son of God.” He warned them sternly not to make him known.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.”

John 10:26-39 “The Father and I are one”… “…so that you may realize that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

John 14:8-11 …“Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.”

 

[MH84]

I should think it very unlikely since that would be blasphemy and the penalty for that was death, usually by stoning I think. I mean, look what happened to Jesus.

According to scripture, Jesus did claim divinity.
Mark 3:11-12 And whenever unclean spirits saw him they would fall down before him and shout, “you are the son of God.” He warned them sternly not to make him known.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.”

John 10:26-39 “The Father and I are one”… “…so that you may realize that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

John 14:8-11 …“Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.”

Being called the “son of God” doesnt mean that they believed Jesus was divine or God Himself. Check this link (Post # 12) forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=205710

How come John’s Gospel was the last New Testament writing to be finalised? Christianity says that the central aspect of this religion is to believe that Jesus is God. However, it took at least 60 years after Jesus’ death for the Gospel of John to be completed. Even so many of the Trinirtarian “proofs” can be argued.

I see that there could be one instance in John where He claims divinity (John 8:58). And two other times when he is called “God” (John 1:1; John 20:28).

No earlier New Testament writing never includes a clear apology of His divinity, only that He was the promised Messiah. If the apostles clearly knew Jesus was part of the Blessed Trinity, you think they would have made that more clear. Maybe they didnt understand as yet or the truth wasnt revealed to them as yet.

In regards to John 10:30, this isnt clear evidence that Jesus was saying that He was God. In John 17 Jesus asked that His followers may be one like Jesus and the Father is One. Are you saying that we would be part of the Trinity as well? He also asks that we may be one, just as the Father and Jesus are one. Now, if you are saying that the Jesus is God because He said He is one with the Father, that means you should say that we are gods as well.

John 17:20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2017:20-23;&version=31;

 

[Valke2]

I know that there were quite a few before and after Jesus who claimed to be the Messiah. But did any Jew, besides Jesus, ever claim to be divine, or a god, or the one God Himself? If so, when, who was he, and what happened to him?

David Blaine.

 

[Valke2]

I should think it very unlikely since that would be blasphemy and the penalty for that was death, usually by stoning I think. I mean, look what happened to Jesus.

According to scripture, Jesus did claim divinity.
Mark 3:11-12 And whenever unclean spirits saw him they would fall down before him and shout, “you are the son of God.” He warned them sternly not to make him known.

That’s not a claim. And it certianly supports the belief that he didn’t make the claim known publicly.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.”

John 10:26-39 “The Father and I are one”… “…so that you may realize that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

John 14:8-11 …“Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.”

And to how many did he make such declarations? There were about a million jews in Palestine at the time. THere were another 5 million in the diaspora So we can pretty much assume that 5 out of 6 jews definately never heard of him.

Of the 1 million that were in play, it must have been a very small number that even heard of Jesus, let alone heard him claim to be God. Most likely the number that heard of Jesus was less than those that heard of John the Baptist. John the Baptist had enough followers to alarm the authorities. Jesus did not.

As for the accounts of thousands of followers, somtimes 5,000, inthe Gospels, I think those numbers are highly exaggerated. If they were accurate, Josephus would have likely mentioned this when he described the four leading “sects” (Pharisees etc.).

In any event, since 5,000 is the biggest number reported, and given the above, his core following must have been much smaller. This is a much smaller number that the number of Jews who followed an Egyptian seer, who claimed to be the Messiah (about 30,000 according to Josephus).

Of the (for the sake of argument) thousands that heard Jesus speak, how many heard him say he was God (even if we are to view John’s quotes as proof)?

So when people say the Jews rejected Jesus, this is really inaccurate.

 

[MH84]

So when people say the Jews rejected Jesus, this is really inaccurate.

Valke, you are a Jew who rejects Jesus arent you?

Anyway, Judaism is miniscule in terms of followers in world religions with only about 13 million followers worldwide.

 

[MH84]

David Blaine.

Seriously, though.

1. Do you believe Jesus claimed to be divine?
2. If you do, why don’t you believe Him? If not, who did this Rabbi claim to be?

In the bible, Jesus called Himself “Son of God” and God’s “only Son” (or “only begotten Son”). In Jewish terms what did this mean? How would have the Jews understood this?

If he wasnt of God, how did He work miracles, miracles of healing no less?

Thanks

 

[Valke2]

Valke, you are a Jew who rejects Jesus arent you?

Anyway, Judaism is miniscule in terms of followers in world religions with only about 13 million followers worldwide.

I’m talking about those Jews who Jesus told he was God. I’m not sure what the amount of Jews in the world today has to do with anything. I don’t reject Jesus. I just don’t believe he was the messiah or divine. In order for me to reject something I first have to be offered it. So I suppose I reject any offers of the Church or Christianity regarding who Jesus was.

 

[MH84]

I’m talking about those Jews who Jesus told he was God. I’m not sure what the amount of Jews in the world today has to do with anything. I don’t reject Jesus. I just don’t believe he was the messiah or divine. In order for me to reject something I first have to be offered it. So I suppose I reject any offers of the Church or Christianity regarding who Jesus was.

Jesus did claim to be Son of God and the Messiah. But you don’t believe that. Just read the bible for yourself.

 

[Valke2]

Seriously, though.

1. Do you believe Jesus claimed to be divine?
2. If you do, why don’t you believe Him? If not, who did this Rabbi claim to be?

In the bible, Jesus called Himself “Son of God” and God’s “only Son” (or “only begotten Son”). In Jewish terms what did this mean? How would have the Jews understood this?

If he wasnt of God, how did He work miracles, miracles of healing no less?

Thanks

I do not believe Jesus claimed to be Divine.
If I did believe he claimed to be divine, I wouldn’t believe him for many of the reasons that I’ve stated here and in other threads. Briefly, his teachings ran contrary to community – that is, he asked people to leave their families and follow him, sell all their possessions, etc. He seems to have been advocating a different form of Judaism, which would make him one of many attempting to do such a thing. If he came to fullfill the covenants, as someone else had mentioned in another thread, i don’t see how he did so.

As to miracles of healing, the Talmud records rabbis doing this, although not to the extent that Jesus is said to have done in terms of quantity. I am suspect of the accounts in the Bible because of how they portray the Pharisees, attributing his exorcism to “Beealzabub, the prince of demons”. Performing exorcisms and casting out demons a/k/a healing, was certainly not unheard of or even that uncommon at the time. You couldn’t swing a dead cat without hitting a demon. Every illness was attributed to demons. So why Jews would take exception with Jesus performing an exorcism and attribute it to the prince of demons, I can’t imagine.

The rabbis viewed demons, in gerneral as an annoyance and there are references to them confronting, outsmarting and overpowering demons in the Talmud and (I am virtually certain) other sources.

 

[Valke2]

Jesus did claim to be Son of God and the Messiah. But you don’t believe that. Just read the bible for yourself.

As has been shown here already, “son of God” is not a term that would have meant “Divine” to Jews in Jesus’ time. And claiming to be the Messiah is not the same as claiming to be God. Jesus was free to claim to be the Messiah. He did not do anything to back up such a claim. And so we wait.

 

[MH84]

As to miracles of healing, the Talmud records rabbis doing this, although not to the extent that Jesus is said to have done in terms of quantity. I am suspect of the accounts in the Bible because of how they portray the Pharisees, attributing his exorcism to “Beealzabub, the prince of demons”. Performing exorcisms and casting out demons a/k/a healing, was certainly not unheard of or even that uncommon at the time. You couldn’t swing a dead cat without hitting a demon. Every illness was attributed to demons. So why Jews would take exception with Jesus performing an exorcism and attribute it to the prince of demons, I can’t imagine.

The Jewish leaders were jealous of Jesus, because the people were starting to follow him. They also couldnt understand how the Christ could be a poor man from Nazareth. They probably expected the Christ to be like David, the royal king.

Jesus was a sign of contradiction. This “poor rabbi” is now Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36). Another thing, is that the Jews didnt know that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. They expected that the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem, but they thought that Jesus was born in Nazareth.

 

[MH84]

As has been shown here already, “son of God” is not a term that would have meant “Divine” to Jews in Jesus’ time. And claiming to be the Messiah is not the same as claiming to be God. Jesus was free to claim to be the Messiah. He did not do anything to back up such a claim. And so we wait.

What did the Jews expect from the Messiah? If they thought that John the Baptist could have been the Messiah (John 1:19-27), why did they find it so hard to believe in Jesus?

 

[dessert]

Valke, you are a Jew who rejects Jesus arent you?

Anyway, Judaism is miniscule in terms of followers in world religions with only about 13 million followers worldwide.

Judaism is very important , they were important Jesus, enough that Jesus said He came to fullfill the law.

 

[Lapell]

Being called the “son of God” doesnt mean that they believed Jesus was divine or God Himself. Check this link (Post # 12) forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=205710

How come John’s Gospel was the last New Testament writing to be finalised? Christianity says that the central aspect of this religion is to believe that Jesus is God. However, it took at least 60 years after Jesus’ death for the Gospel of John to be completed. Even so many of the Trinirtarian “proofs” can be argued.

I see that there could be one instance in John where He claims divinity (John 8:58). And two other times when he is called “God” (John 1:1; John 20:28).

No earlier New Testament writing never includes a clear apology of His divinity, only that He was the promised Messiah. If the apostles clearly knew Jesus was part of the Blessed Trinity, you think they would have made that more clear. Maybe they didnt understand as yet or the truth wasnt revealed to them as yet.

In regards to John 10:30, this isnt clear evidence that Jesus was saying that He was God. In John 17 Jesus asked that His followers may be one like Jesus and the Father is One. Are you saying that we would be part of the Trinity as well? He also asks that we may be one, just as the Father and Jesus are one. Now, if you are saying that the Jesus is God because He said He is one with the Father, that means you should say that we are gods as well.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2017:20-23;&version=31;

No clear things, just implying deeds or words. When Jesus ordered the winds and the sea to calm down, and they did, the Apostles told each other: “Who is this man?” (Mark 4, 35-41). And in the same Gospel you have a demon calling him the Holy One of God, not just a prophet or even a man of God… But we know this from faith, it’s not “proof” in everybody’s eyes. “If they don’t listen to Moses and the Prophets, someone could be risen from the dead, they would still not be convinced”, said Abraham to the rich man in the parable of the rich man and the poor Lazarus. Let’s always remember this.

 

[Lapell]

What did the Jews expect from the Messiah? If they thought that John the Baptist could have been the Messiah (John 1:19-27), why did they find it so hard to believe in Jesus?

Because unlike John, Jesus claimed to be not just the Messiah, but God the Son Himself, even though he used indirect ways to say it which were the usage in his time on earth.