Has women in the work force helped or hurt the family?

[CB_Catholic]

How do you think other women would feel about such a change?

Before answering, allow me to sharpen the query. Suppose the husband just one day decided that he wanted to leave the work force and enter into a stay-at-home dad life; he is not a lazy person, he will work hard to properly raise the kids. How do you think most women/moms would react to that change?

Do you not agree that most women expect that if someone will be home with the kids, that it will be them? Wouldn’t it be true that most women would feel hurt if their husbands wanted to take that role?

Being a guy I can only guess…

I stayed at home for 10 years with the children. If my husband could have stayed at home and have me go to work the screen door would have lost it’s hinges from the speed at which I would have been out that door. But at the time, I could not make enough to support the family, wages were that ineqitable. My husband is the type who can cook and clean, do laundry, wash dishes, and tend to infants and children as well as I can. (Won’t iron, though ) So is my son and my daughter’s husband.

Does that answer your question, at least in part?

BTW, I grew up in the “golden age” of the Ozzie and Harriet and Leave It To Beaver family myths (50’s and 60’s). The only friends I had whose mothers did not work were those whose fathers made a better than average salary. The rest of the women were out in the workforce–they were teachers, nurses, secretaries, receptionists, salesclerks, waitresses, bookeepers, seamstresses, beauticians, librarians, and factory workers. All jobs that paid considerably less than what men could make. It is a myth that most women stayed home 24/7 to keep house and raise children. Where I grew up, almost every woman had at least a part-time job. Only the ones who could afford it were home all the time, and if you lived in a rural area (as my grandparents did) and had a farm, and were a woman, you were out there in the fields, milking the cows, working in the garden, helping with the harvest, tending livestock, PLUS tending to children, cooking large meals, and keeping the house.

The generation of my grandparents, however, before WWII was a little bit different, depending on where you lived. I think more middle class women stayed home back then, but in the big cities and among the immigrant population many women worked–in factories and in family run businesses, as domestic help, and in the rural areas on the farm.

No, I don’t think women in the workforce has been a major contribution to societal decline. They have always been there, and in larger numbers than most people assume, but they’ve not received the recognition they have deserved. There have been many more insidious factors at work in our society.

 

[Iheartcoffee]

It has now been a well established fact that women pursue careers at nearly the same rate as men and they work fulltime at nearly the same rate as men. Those numbers have steadily increased for the last three decades. This has been the case long enough to help us create an informed opinion about the impact of these developments.

So, here are a few questions"

1. Has women working fulltime outside the home been a good or bad development for the American family?
2. Has our culture improved since women entered the workforce in massive numbers?
3. Are our children better or worse off?
4. Has women working fulltime made this nation stronger, weaker, or no impact?
5. Have our children become stronger or weaker in the faith?
6. Has entering careers and fulltime work been good or bad for women (and women who are moms)?

**Add on questions for married couples: **

1. Would women prefer to work and let their husbands stay at home and care for their children? Or, would women rather both spouses work?
2. Would it better to have men stay at home with the kids, rather then neither parent staying home?

I think these questions are probably a bit too general. There are so many variables such as the age of the children, the availability of other family members, the types of careers people have, etc. I would be afraid to generalize too much on these. It really all depends on the family. There are children that are cared for by grandparents while the parents work and lead perfectly happy and productive lives. There are children raised in day care centers (which resemble the child care patterns of many tribal groups) and go on to live happy, healthy lives with little or no religious issues.
My fiance was raised by his mother and grandmother after his father died when he was exactly one month old. His mother had been a stay at home mom and it took YEARS for them to recover financially when she suddenly had to complete her education and find a job. Had she been working as well as his father, things would have been much more stable.
My grandfather on my father’s side (and, unfortunately, many in that family) act as if men are smarter and superior in the family and suggest that his wife (my grandmother) do all the chores and cooking to the point where we even saw her CUT HIS MEAT one time at dinner! Aaaargh…
However, for all the backwards, men are superior to women beliefs that he has had, there is one thing that he has always believed, and that is that women should not only be able to work outside the home, but that they SHOULD work outside the home. His father was killed during a flash flood and was missing for 6 months. (He died and was pulled up by a fisherman 6 months later- I know…gross and really sad). During that time when no one knew if he was alive but feared that he was probably dead, his mother (my great-grandmother) had to support the family. She did quite well, and I think it left an impression. (I just wish her independent spirit had left an impression on him that women are not feeble and suited only for teaching, being a secretary, and marrying).
Anyhoo…

My fiance and I have talked about working and raising children. I think we are both going to work unless one of us decides we really want to stay home. If we have children and I realize that I love working and I don’t want to stay home, and he wants to stay home with them, I honestly won’t care. It’s a partnership and it is about the two of us working together. If the most effective and healthy avenue for raising children doesn’t fit completely with the societal norm (the one that says women always stay home) then we don’t care. We are equals working towards one common goal.

P.S. Do not take my comment about teachers and secretaries as a jab at the career itself. I have many smart, wonderful teachers in my family and I know it is not a job for the weak. Also, my job isn’t specifically being a secretary, but I feel like that is basically what I do, so no jabs intended to those careers! I was just making a point that he seems to believe women should ONLY be in very “female” careers.

 

[ConvertHopeful]

I do not believe that women in the professional workforce (b/c women have always been in the workforce) have contributed to society’s decline.

My motto:
If needed then I will work in spite of having children (who come first).

Not my motto:
I will have children in spite of having a career (and fit the children in).

just the way I see it.

I think the decline has much more to do with the breakdown of morals, reliance on religion, and the pursuit of “pleasure.”

 

[Serap]

I stayed at home for 10 years with the children. If my husband could have stayed at home and have me go to work the screen door would have lost it’s hinges from the speed at which I would have been out that door. But at the time, I could not make enough to support the family, wages were that ineqitable. My husband is the type who can cook and clean, do laundry, wash dishes, and tend to infants and children as well as I can. (Won’t iron, though ) So is my son and my daughter’s husband.

Does that answer your question, at least in part?

BTW, I grew up in the “golden age” of the Ozzie and Harriet and Leave It To Beaver family myths (50’s and 60’s). The only friends I had whose mothers did not work were those whose fathers made a better than average salary. The rest of the women were out in the workforce–they were teachers, nurses, secretaries, receptionists, salesclerks, waitresses, bookeepers, seamstresses, beauticians, librarians, and factory workers. All jobs that paid considerably less than what men could make. It is a myth that most women stayed home 24/7 to keep house and raise children. Where I grew up, almost every woman had at least a part-time job. Only the ones who could afford it were home all the time, and if you lived in a rural area (as my grandparents did) and had a farm, and were a woman, you were out there in the fields, milking the cows, working in the garden, helping with the harvest, tending livestock, PLUS tending to children, cooking large meals, and keeping the house.

The generation of my grandparents, however, before WWII was a little bit different, depending on where you lived. I think more middle class women stayed home back then, but in the big cities and among the immigrant population many women worked–in factories and in family run businesses, as domestic help, and in the rural areas on the farm.

No, I don’t think women in the workforce has been a major contribution to societal decline. They have always been there, and in larger numbers than most people assume, but they’ve not received the recognition they have deserved. There have been many more insidious factors at work in our society.

Amen to your post and I admire your honesty and I honor you as a mother

I would love to hear from more mothers from the 50s and 60s as to how they felt in that era.

 

[Serap]

As long as full time parent also describes working mothers and fathers as well, because I certainly parent full time!

I certainly work full-time and over-time!

I work, rush home to my kids (home by 4:45 pm), care for my family, bath my kids, dress them for bed and then I put my son to bed at 8:15 p.m. Then I put my daughter to sleep and then I have 1/2 hour to myself where I will watch a bit of T.V.

My son is up at around 6:00 a.m., so my full time job begins at 6:00 am. and ends at 8:30 p.m., so that is 14.5 hour days.

Yep, I definitely am a full-time mother! :yup:

 

[Serap]

If the caregiver is not the child’s parent, but is hired to play the part of a parent, then that is bad.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

As a recent college graduate, I would like to state that I love my parents for both working in careers and paying for my college tuition… THANK YOU!
Since Mom was kind of busy working for the local board of education, I went to daycare a lot to be with other kids my age, which was great!

peace,
Phil

 

[GraceDK]

As a recent college graduate, I would like to state that I love my parents for both working in careers and paying for my college tuition… THANK YOU!
Since Mom was kind of busy working for the local board of education, I went to daycare a lot to be with other kids my age, which was great!

peace,
Phil

Thanks for your contribution Phil.

My mother was a fulltime mother, although working outside the home.
It blessed us all. I do think that the talk about quality and quantity is wise in some ways (all things can be abused of course). Eg. while growing up I received an attitute from my father which sometimes left me feeling I was an annoyance to him, he didn’t really want me etc.
My dad worked longer hours than my mom but he was still at home in the evening… and there he could give me quality time and show me his unconditional love… As I said, there was a lack in our relationship, not because he wasn’t home enough but because of how I perceived his view of me.

It has been hinted here that the only valid reason for a woman to work outside the home is economic reasons. That I do not agree with.
Healthy self- and-family actualization through a mother who has an interesting job which, in my case, we all benefitted from, like we also benefitted from my fathers creative work is a good in itself.

 

[Serap]

My fertility is used as a sword to prevent me from being a human being…? I thought by virtue of being a homo sapien I was a de facto human.

Right after my first son was born, the hospital served me lunch. I remember exactly what it was, broiled chicken. As I ate the lunch, my little guy was in the nursery with his dad getting checked.

I remember eating and thinking that the food was the most deserved meal I had ever had…and that all my experiences up until that point were trivial. Giving birth was the most difficult yet most rewarding feat I ever accomplished.

Being a mother is the hardest role I have ever had.

.

I think what she means is that SAHMs were greatly unappreciated by men and society. I know many husbands of SAHMs and they say things like, “What did you do all day anyway? Why is the house a mess???”

 

[cviolette]

I think what she means is that SAHMs were greatly unappreciated by men and society. I know many husbands of SAHMs and they say things like, “What did you do all day anyway? Why is the house a mess???”

Sounds like my husband. He never comments that the house is a mess but does say that it must be nice to do nothing all day. But yet he does not want me to work.

The thing that irritates me is that I have worked an hour and 45 minutes before he even gets up. Starting the wood stove, doing the dishes from the night before (my teenage boys tend to mess up the kitchen after I go to bed), sort the laundry and start a load, pack the lunches and drive the kids to school (40 minutes round trip).

 

[Serap]

Sounds like my husband. He never comments that the house is a mess but does say that it must be nice to do nothing all day. But yet he does not want me to work. It’s a 24/7 job especialy when the kids are young.

The thing that irritates me is that I have worked an hour and 45 minutes before he even gets up. Starting the wood stove, doing the dishes from the night before (my teenage boys tend to mess up the kitchen after I go to bed), sort the laundry and start a load, pack the lunches and drive the kids to school (40 minutes round trip).

And this is dead wrong. SAHM’s work much harder than men 80% of the time. It is a very unappreciated role at home and in society.

We can blame this stigma soley on society, but this stigma has been around for more than 2,000 years. Men say things like, “that’s women’s work!” like that is a bad thing. Men often devalue their wive’s work as a SAHM calling it “easy work” compared to their “hard work”.

I hate to say this, but historically, men brought this on themselves. If they had of valued women working in the home just as much as they valued their own job of bringing home money for their family, we wouldn’t be in this mess now.

AND if men today valued their SAHM wives as much as they valued their own job, then today’s SAHMs wouldn’t feel so unaccomplished. I know many SAHMs that feel like they somehow have accomplished nothing How can this be? They have spent the last 25 years cleaning, cooking, running errands, taking kids to activities, teaching their children right from wrong, etc. How can this not be a HUGE accomplishment?

Why has our society historically seen “women’s work” to be some kind of a joke? This is nothing new. Men have always seen women as not being as valuable as themselves.

All of the men on this thread…be honest…do you secretly believe that your role of earning money is more important or more valuable than your wife’s role of raising the kids and maintaining your home?

**Edited to add: **

If you men come home and the house is a mess and your wife wants you to watch the kids and help clean the house, would you be irritated b/c you just got home from a day’s work? She tells you that she has had a bad day and she needs a break. What if this happens say, 3 days a week on a regular basis. Would you resent your wife for needing so many breaks?

 

[irishpatrick]

And this is dead wrong. SAHM’s work much harder than men 80% of the time. It is a very unappreciated role at home and in society.

We can blame this stigma soley on society, but this stigma has been around for more than 2,000 years. Men say things like, “that’s women’s work!” like that is a bad thing. Men often devalue their wive’s work as a SAHM calling it “easy work” compared to their “hard work”.

I hate to say this, but historically, men brought this on themselves. If they had of valued women working in the home just as much as they valued their own job of bringing home money for their family, we wouldn’t be in this mess now.

AND if men today valued their SAHM wives as much as they valued their own job, then today’s SAHMs wouldn’t feel so unaccomplished. I know many SAHMs that feel like they somehow have accomplished nothing How can this be? They have spent the last 25 years cleaning, cooking, running errands, taking kids to activities, teaching their children right from wrong, etc. How can this not be a HUGE accomplishment?

Why has our society historically seen “women’s work” to be some kind of a joke? This is nothing new. Men have always seen women as not being as valuable as themselves.

All of the men on this thread…be honest…do you secretly believe that your role of earning money is more important or more valuable than your wife’s role of raising the kids and maintaining your home?

**Edited to add: **

If you men come home and the house is a mess and your wife wants you to watch the kids and help clean the house, would you be irritated b/c you just got home from a day’s work? She tells you that she has had a bad day and she needs a break. What if this happens say, 3 days a week on a regular basis. Would you resent your wife for needing so many breaks?

Pssst…psst…just between us two…you are making my argument for me…the true value of moms staying at home is enormous and should be treasured by wives and husbands…thank you.

Carry on…sneaking out the door quietly now…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

One wonders how much of a role “Mammon” plays here.

For historically speaking, women’s work was not unappreciated.

The idea that it was comes in part from the Victorians, who sought to achieve such ‘leisure’ for their wives that the work which less wealthy women (and men) felt necessary AND appreciated was judged by them ‘drudgery.’

We still have some of that Victorian attitude today that women’s work is ‘drudgery’. However, while Victorian MEN likewise thought that a GENTLEMAN ideally ‘did nothing’ either (having either inherited his loot or working in some ‘genteel’ occupation where he didn’t have to LOOK as though he worked --people tend to FORGET THAT PART, that men as well as women were supposed to be ‘leisured’) – the Puritan ethic came more to the fore in the 20th century. Work, work, work.

Now you have men conditioned to work, work, work, along with the Victorian idea that WOMEN should do nothing and that anything they did WAS nothing–and wham, you have the WEALTHY ideal of the early 20th century.

And because the wealthy were the ones doing most of the media work, the low and middle class had this desire for ‘women at home’ as at once something to aspire to, and (since they likewise were told how IMPORTANT it was to work, work, work), something to dread.

Because by now we have a host of mutually incompatible ideas:

A. Women should not ‘do work’; this is for MEN.
B. Women historically have provided the hearth and home, not ‘for men’ but for themselves and their FAMILIES. IOW, ‘everybody’ benefits.
C. If women DO work, it is either not as valuable work as men’s or it is something that men do not want to do.
D. Women in the home caring for children are not doing as IMPORTANT work as men.

Now in trying to redress the first, we have today.
E. Women SHOULD work outside the home for personal fulfilment, like men.

In trying to redress B, we hear today:
F. Since women were FORCED to be homebodies, NOBODY benefitted except the MEN. Therefore, women SHOULD work outside the home because 'mothering is not valuable work.

OOPS! C isn’t being redressed at all! Very few women today feel mothering is the ‘only’ thing or more important than ‘personal fulfilment’ and most mutter about how they would go crazy with the ‘drudgery’. So despite the manifest unfairness (and MODERNITY) of C, people still are buying it.

And thus, D is not being redressed either. There is still a feeling that women who ‘just’ stay home with children aren’t doing their ‘fair share’ or are so intellectually LIMITED that it is ‘all’ they can do. They are pitied and despised for their ‘failure’ to understand ‘history’.

But don’t let’s feel that the ‘working woman’ is getting all the glory. She isn’t. BECAUSE she still swallows the party line about women’s work being lesser, she tries to be not just ‘equal’ to men but greater. (Remember the old line about “In order to be perceived as good as a man a woman has to work twice as hard and be twice as smart. Fortunately this is not difficult.” There is some truth to the PERCEPTION but the presentation is bitter AND it is also insulting to men and women as well.

In many ways the once-complementary roles of men and women have been blurred. This is necessary for many and even helpful for those (like many of us) who have been de facto forced to work to support our families, but we really need to use the good things (more equitable pay, more opportunity) and to REDRESS the bad (the idea that women’s work at home is not so valuable or that it is somehow ‘unfair’ for women to enjoy working at home.)

Basically, many women and men have been put into artificially ADVERSARIAL positions against other men and women, and not for good reason. When people look down on others for a supposed ‘lack’, it ought to be over something that is truly a lack–and they ought to be trying to help and to be KIND about it. When people are looked down on because of lies and misinformation, and all that happens is that people get more and more polarized, angry, and hurtful because they ‘buy one party line’. . .that isn’t helpful to anybody IMHO.

 

[Serap]

Pssst…psst…just between us two…you are making my argument for me…the true value of moms staying at home is enormous and should be treasured by wives and husbands…thank you.

Carry on…sneaking out the door quietly now…

 

[Serap]

Pssst…psst…just between us two…you are making my argument for me…the true value of moms staying at home is enormous and should be treasured by wives and husbands…thank you.

Carry on…sneaking out the door quietly now…

pssst…pssst…just between you and me…my husband is one of those men that devalues “woman’s work” and he treats me with a lot more respect now that I’m working again.

 

[vsedriver]

That last sentence made me smile–really. Awesome.

However–and be honest here–is it fair that women have choices, but men really do not? Is that fair, is that true EQUALITY?

well, when men can carry a baby inside their body and then nurse that baby you can talk about fair choices.

It isn’t about the choices of men or women. It’s what is best for children. A child should be cared for by his or her mother at least till the age of 4. then I have no problem with the father taking over as long as one parent is home with the kids.

This should always be discussed by a couple before marriage. I made it very clear that when we had children I would be home to care for them. I only went back to work when my youngest was 14 but my husband was still home with them since we worked different shifts.

 

[irishpatrick]

pssst…pssst…just between you and me…my husband is one of those men that devalues “woman’s work” and he treats me with a lot more respect now that I’m working again.

Well, then I’d say that your husband views these matters wrongly. SAHMs do prodigous amounts of work and that work should be respected. Many moms work harder then their husbands…but, don’t tell their husbands…pssst

 

[Serap]

One wonders how much of a role “Mammon” plays here.

For historically speaking, women’s work was not unappreciated.

The idea that it was comes in part from the Victorians, who sought to achieve such ‘leisure’ for their wives that the work which less wealthy women (and men) felt necessary AND appreciated was judged by them ‘drudgery.’

We still have some of that Victorian attitude today that women’s work is ‘drudgery’. However, while Victorian MEN likewise thought that a GENTLEMAN ideally ‘did nothing’ either (having either inherited his loot or working in some ‘genteel’ occupation where he didn’t have to LOOK as though he worked --people tend to FORGET THAT PART, that men as well as women were supposed to be ‘leisured’) – the Puritan ethic came more to the fore in the 20th century. Work, work, work.

Now you have men conditioned to work, work, work, along with the Victorian idea that WOMEN should do nothing and that anything they did WAS nothing–and wham, you have the WEALTHY ideal of the early 20th century.

And because the wealthy were the ones doing most of the media work, the low and middle class had this desire for ‘women at home’ as at once something to aspire to, and (since they likewise were told how IMPORTANT it was to work, work, work), something to dread.

Because by now we have a host of mutually incompatible ideas:

A. Women should not ‘do work’; this is for MEN.
B. Women historically have provided the hearth and home, not ‘for men’ but for themselves and their FAMILIES. IOW, ‘everybody’ benefits.
C. If women DO work, it is either not as valuable work as men’s or it is something that men do not want to do.
D. Women in the home caring for children are not doing as IMPORTANT work as men.

Now in trying to redress the first, we have today.
E. Women SHOULD work outside the home for personal fulfilment, like men.

In trying to redress B, we hear today:
F. Since women were FORCED to be homebodies, NOBODY benefitted except the MEN. Therefore, women SHOULD work outside the home because 'mothering is not valuable work.

OOPS! C isn’t being redressed at all! Very few women today feel mothering is the ‘only’ thing or more important than ‘personal fulfilment’ and most mutter about how they would go crazy with the ‘drudgery’. So despite the manifest unfairness (and MODERNITY) of C, people still are buying it.

And thus, D is not being redressed either. There is still a feeling that women who ‘just’ stay home with children aren’t doing their ‘fair share’ or are so intellectually LIMITED that it is ‘all’ they can do. They are pitied and despised for their ‘failure’ to understand ‘history’.

But don’t let’s feel that the ‘working woman’ is getting all the glory. She isn’t. BECAUSE she still swallows the party line about women’s work being lesser, she tries to be not just ‘equal’ to men but greater. (Remember the old line about “In order to be perceived as good as a man a woman has to work twice as hard and be twice as smart. Fortunately this is not difficult.” There is some truth to the PERCEPTION but the presentation is bitter AND it is also insulting to men and women as well.

In many ways the once-complementary roles of men and women have been blurred. This is necessary for many and even helpful for those (like many of us) who have been de facto forced to work to support our families, but we really need to use the good things (more equitable pay, more opportunity) and to REDRESS the bad (the idea that women’s work at home is not so valuable or that it is somehow ‘unfair’ for women to enjoy working at home.)

Basically, many women and men have been put into artificially ADVERSARIAL positions against other men and women, and not for good reason. When people look down on others for a supposed ‘lack’, it ought to be over something that is truly a lack–and they ought to be trying to help and to be KIND about it. When people are looked down on because of lies and misinformation, and all that happens is that people get more and more polarized, angry, and hurtful because they ‘buy one party line’. . .that isn’t helpful to anybody IMHO.

great post!!! I applaud you for ellaborating on my other post.

This thread is beginning to get very interesting.

 

[irishpatrick]

well, when men can carry a baby inside their body and then nurse that baby you can talk about fair choices.

It isn’t about the choices of men or women. It’s what is best for children. A child should be cared for by his or her mother at least till the age of 4. then I have no problem with the father taking over as long as one parent is home with the kids.

This should always be discussed by a couple before marriage. I made it very clear that when we had children I would be home to care for them. I only went back to work when my youngest was 14 but my husband was still home with them since we worked different shifts.

So, women are MORE equal than men…okay.

 

[Serap]

Well, then I’d say that your husband views these matters wrongly. SAHMs do prodigous amounts of work and that work should be respected. Many moms work harder then their husbands…but, don’t tell their husbands…pssst

I agree with you and if more men valued “women’s work” then more women would be happy staying at home b/c they wouldn’t feel devalued and unaccomplished.

Who knows what views would be if society were different and staying at home was considered as prestigious as being a lawyer or doctor…interesting line of though don’t you think?