Has your pastor tried to stop hand-holding during the Our Father? If so, what happened?

[ncjohn]

I have not been aware of hand-holding in Mass being around for 40 years. I have seen it mostly in the last few years. Regardless, people moving down the pews to grab someone’s hand and in some parishes even stringing across the aisle to hold hands like we’re all going to break out in a chorus of Ring-around-the-rosie, is not my idea of a prayerful postition.

Yes, there are pictures showing it going back to the late 60s, roughly paralleling the recitation of the Lord’s Prayer by the people. And it is documented at least back to 1975 when Rome published a noticiae that it could not be substituted for the sign of peace, but conspicuously not commenting in any way that there was anything unacceptable about it in and of itself.

And you are certainly entitled to your opinion, for which I can have total respect as long as you don’t try to make it binding on others. I know of many good reasons for both “sides” of the argument, and have myself been on both sides at different times. One is certainly entitled to not want to do it regardless of what their reason is, and without being questioned for that.

It is interesting that you say that “in fact, under Canon Law, after 30 years of continual, unreprobated use, it likely would qualify as a legitimate “custom”.” That is the same argument I, and many others, have used regarding the wearing of veils by women in Church and when in prayer. So you see veiling as a custom that should not have been discontinued?

I see veiling in the same light, yes, but probably not in the way you are looking at it. As a legitimate “custom” it cannot be prohibited for those who prefer to express themselves that way, just as holding hands should not be prohibited for those who prefer to express themselves that way.

As a parallel, presenting one’s self kneeling to receive communion is an “immemorial custom”. That is why in spite of the US norm, promulgated by the USCCB, people can in fact kneel to receive communion without being disobedient. As with holding hands or wearing a veil, it doesn’t make it a requirement; it only ensures that it can’t be taken away.

Has the USCCB made a statement for hand-holding? I would really like to see a link to that.

They were asked a parallel question about using the Orans position. The response was that there is “no prescribed position for the hands during the Our Father.”

I personally find Archbishop Chaput’s statement on the matter to be clearest, and most likely to promote charity on the part of all. This is a link to that statement. archden.org/archbishop/docs/12_18_02_our_father_liturgy.htm

Peace,

 

[Philothea53]

Yes, there are pictures showing it going back to the late 60s, roughly paralleling the recitation of the Lord’s Prayer by the people. And it is documented at least back to 1975 when Rome published a noticiae that it could not be substituted for the sign of peace, but conspicuously not commenting in any way that there was anything unacceptable about it in and of itself.

Could you direct me to a link showing pictures from that time period?

I personally find Archbishop Chaput’s statement on the matter to be clearest, and most likely to promote charity on the part of all. This is a link to that statement. archden.org/archbishop/docs/12_18_02_our_father_liturgy.htm

Peace,

It is to be noted that different people can read the same words and come away with different interpretations. Thank God for the Church and the Magisterium!

From your link to Archbishop Chaput statement, I read,

"None of these gestures is mandated or forbidden by the Church. So our guiding principles should be respect for the dignity of the Mass, and respect for the freedom of our fellow worshipers.

Some people feel that holding hands during the “Our Father” enhances a sense of community. This is perfectly appropriate — so long as it can be done with dignity and without the unseemly acrobatics that sometimes ensue.

For other people, holding hands is a kind of intimacy they reserve for family members. It makes them uncomfortable to hold hands during Mass, and they prefer not to do it. This is also perfectly appropriate. A parish may have several ways of praying the “Our Father,” depending on the people who take part in a specific Mass. No one should feel coerced, and the beauty of the liturgy should always be observed."

The points made by His Excellency that I have bolded, are the same points I was trying to make especially the one about the ‘unseemly acrobatics that sometimes ensue.’

There have even been those who have accused those of us who prefer not to hold hands as creating scandal and drawing attention to ourselves as though we believe we are ‘holier than thou’. As the good Archbishop says, we should not feel coerced.

His Excellency talked about the “dignity of the Mass”, and said that if people want to hold hands it should be "done with dignity and without the “unseemly acrobatics that sometimes ensue” and that “the beauty of the liturgy should always be observed.”

Thank you for posting this link. I think His Excellency and I are of like minds. Commoner that I am I am not able to express myself as clearly or as charitably as he.

I believe the Priest has the final call on whether these things are happening in his Parish during a Mass at which he is the Celebrant. I believe he has the authority and the duty to stop it if he sees it as contrary to the proper tone of the Mass.

 

[fix]

Can. 23 A custom introduced by a community of the faithful has the force of law only if it has been approved by the legislator, in accordance with the following canons.

Can. 24 ß1 No custom which is contrary to divine law can acquire the force of law.

ß2 A custom which is contrary to or apart from canon law, cannot acquire the force of law unless it is reasonable; a custom which is expressly reprobated in the law is not reasonable.

Can. 25 No custom acquires the force of law unless it has been observed, with the intention of introducing a law, by a community capable at least of receiving a law.

Can. 26 Unless it has been specifically approved by the competent legislator, a custom which is contrary to the canon law currently in force, or is apart from the canon law, acquires the force of law only when it has been lawfully observed for a period of thirty continuous and complete years. Only a centennial or immemorial custom can prevail over a canonical law which carries a clause forbidding future customs.

Can. 27 Custom is the best interpreter of laws.

Can. 28 Without prejudice to the provisions of can. 5, a custom, whether contrary to or apart from the law, is revoked by a contrary custom or law. But unless the law makes express mention of them, it does not revoke centennial or immemorial customs, nor does a universal law revoke particular customs.

I am no expert but does it not say it must be approved by the legislator? That was the point of the link I provided from the priest in Rome.

 

[ncjohn]

I think His Excellency and I are of like minds. Commoner that I am I am not able to express myself as clearly or as charitably as he.

I would agree with you, and he expresses my sentiments very well also.

I believe the Priest has the final call on whether these things are happening in his Parish during a Mass at which he is the Celebrant. I believe he has the authority and the duty to stop it if he sees it as contrary to the proper tone of the Mass.

I agree with you that he has the authority to bring things to a tone of dignity IF it has become some kind of unseemly free for all. He does not have the authority to just forbid the practice however.

Peace,

 

[Crumpy]

Has your pastor tried to stop hand-holding during the Our Father?

How did he try to stop it?

If so, what happened?

No, unfortunately.

What don’t you understand? Two moments later, after the Our Father, we’re going to hold hands (again)? When did Mass become this mandatory touchy-feely thing? The explanation is in the apologist’s forum, that we don’t even have to shake anybody’s hand even then.

By the way, have you ever heard of “germs” ?

 

[ncjohn]

I am no expert but does it not say it must be approved by the legislator? That was the point of the link I provided from the priest in Rome.

I’ll have to dig out the reference, fix. There is a specific one that deals with a practice that has been in place for at least 30 continuous years without being reprobated. It does not require a legislator for that reason.

 

[Conciliar]

I can see where ncjohn is coming from WRT a pastor trying to “enforce” a ban on hand holding. Yet that doesn’t mean ignore the issue.

In serving as helpers to the bishop in the executionof his threefold office of teaching, sanctifying, and govrning, I think this is a matter that calls for teaching moreso than for governing.

The pastor should teach the purpose of the rubrics in general, and explain the reason why hand holding here obscures what is happening, etc… He would need to do so repeatedly - from the pulpit, in the bulletin, etc… Of coure, there are those who will willingly stop because they now understand and there will also be those who stubbornly continue.

 

[Teakafrog]

Our pastor actually tells everyone “reach across that aisle, now!” Sigh. Only Church in the area…

 

[ncjohn]

Our pastor actually tells everyone “reach across that aisle, now!” Sigh. Only Church in the area…

And that is sad indeed as it is definitely not allowed for an outside third party to direct or instigate the action. I would apologize to you on behalf of all of us who would never impose this on someone who did not wish to.

 

[fix]

I’ll have to dig out the reference, fix. There is a specific one that deals with a practice that has been in place for at least 30 continuous years without being reprobated. It does not require a legislator for that reason.

I posted it in my last post. Canon 26.

 

[dessert]

I used to go to this parish occasionally for a teen Mass. There is a “group” (I guess the youth director(s) and their kids and helpers) who sat in the front row who actually leave their pew, walk down the aisles (in line formation) and force people to hold hands across the aisle during the Our Father. I used to wonder why they didn’t micro manage all areas of the Mass, like go from person to person to make sure they were singing, etc.

This seems pharaseical to me but maybe they want the unity.

They did hold hands and some would get angry if you didn’t, in the old one I went to but not in this one and very few even fold their hands in prayer but our priest exemplifies very well
folding hands in an upward prayerful mannner.

The priest in the first one always held hands with the altar servers so no one wanted to contest what he was doing but when he wasn’t there, gone on retreat or vac. happened alot, they did what they wanted. Not hold hands about half and kneel during the Our Father at the daily but there is the choice, so as long as you are reverent. I try not to watch others to see if they are singing or not.

Dessert

 

[az_4_faith]

You’re never going to get people to stop holding hands during the Our Father until they’re definitively directed not to do this from the bishops.

All of the bishops of this country would have to be united in one opinion because Americans are very transient, whether moving or vacationing and until everyone gets on the same page, the practice won’t stop. Even in my own diocese, there are different opinions about this from parish to parish.

I think that in the grand scheme of things, the Bishops feel that they have more to worry about than this issue.

As a non-hand-holding family, we’ve never run into a situation where someone was offended because we didn’t hold their hand. We keep our hands folded, but we don’t make a big deal out of it. Then, we give our neighbors a nice smile, a firm handshake and a “peace be with you” right after.

 

[thann]

…But this last Sunday we went to a different church the hand holding wasn’t an issue so much as lots of people were raising their hands during the Alleluia then twirling their wrists at the same time. It was very distracting. The “band” had their opening number and then it just seemed very “entertaining” for the whole Mass. My husband thought maybe charismatic?

The gesture you mention is American Sign Language for “Alleluia.” Unless those making the gesture were members of the deaf community, it really wasn’t appropriate. If they were deaf (or signing to the deaf), then it’s OK. (But it sounds like they were just people “enhancing” the liturgy, which is definitely NOT OK!)

'thann

 

[Miserissima]

The gesture you mention is American Sign Language for “Alleluia.” Unless those making the gesture were members of the deaf community, it really wasn’t appropriate. If they were deaf (or signing to the deaf), then it’s OK. (But it sounds like they were just people “enhancing” the liturgy, which is definitely NOT OK!)

'thann

Here’s a link to a quicktime demonstration:
valleybible.net/deaf/aslqt/alleluia.shtml
The description reads, “Clap both hands together in front of the chest, fingers pointing up. Then raise both modified “a” hands near each shoulder and move them in small outward circles.” Was this what you saw?

 

[ncjohn]

I posted it in my last post. Canon 26.

Ok. Somehow I skimmed past it.

Can. 26 Unless it has been specifically approved by the competent legislator, a custom which is contrary to the canon law currently in force, or is apart from the canon law, acquires the force of law only when it has been lawfully observed for a period of thirty continuous and complete years.

This addresses those practices that are “…apart from canon law…” acquiring force of law after being observed for 30 continuous years. That is the way to becoming custom without being legislated.

In my mind, the only question up for grabs would be whether it has been “lawfully” observed. My personal opinion from my amateur legal studies is that since there has been no attempt by anyone in authority to make it unlawful, while being in full knowledge of its existence, that it is lawful by default, kind of like “squatter’s rights”. I will readily concede though that I am not a canon lawyer and that my legal skills do not rise to that level.

I don’t think the Church ever formally declares something as having achieved “customhood”, though I may be wrong on that since there are the distinctions between “custom”, “tradition” and “law” as to how something can be permitted or required. And of course, even if it is a legitimate “custom” that does not imply “requirement” but only that the preference couldn’t be taken away at this point.

Peace,

 

[kamz]

Our Priest doesn’t stop it or enforce it, he just said that we do need to remember its about God and WE not God and Me we are one family and sadly some people do think of it just as (ME and Jesus) and that is why we are losing many Catholics to other faiths, sadly we are guilty in our parishes all too often of not being personal or caring enough or reaching out enough. Some people are so focused on God and Me that they forget we are one family in Christ and need to remember that.

If you don’t want to hold hands during the our father then just don’t and if you don’t want to shake your brother and sister in Chris’s hands during the peace then don’t but I don’t have a problem with either. If you don’t want this happening then please share how we can show others in our parish that indeed we are one family and one body of Christ? It is not me and my church alone and God is not mine alone and it is not just me in that church during Mass and we are to come “together” as a whole faith community.

I’ve been to many parishes that come across as so cold and uncaring, go to Mass, and focus on me and My God and leave after. And if someone is hurting in my parish, well, too bad.

I’m so glad I belong to a Parish that has their focus on the Lord but we don’t forget to make sure that everyone knows that All Are Welcome in this place and that we are one body and we is all of us with God and not just one of us with God.

Blast me if you must… I’m glad I have grown up with several wonderful parishes that don’t make a big “oh, my goodness” over hand holding or not hand holding or shaking hands or not shaking hands. To each his own:thumbsup:

 

[Genesis315]

The parish I grew up at had massive hand-holding for a while (extending across aisles, etc.). Now they don’t have it at all–honestly, I can’t remember how it was done away with. I vaguely remember the priest saying something about it…

 

[kamz]

The parish I grew up at had massive hand-holding for a while (extending across aisles, etc.). Now they don’t have it at all–honestly, I can’t remember how it was done away with. I vaguely remember the priest saying something about it…

We have never had “extending across the aisles”
Just whoever is in your row and I’ve never seen people try to “force” someone to hold hands that didn’t want to.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

My church does the across the aisles thing, and I don’t participate in it. My daughter and I have moved over to the side aisle from the front row, and that seems to help a lot. It also gives me more of a chance to focus on getting her to pay attention and help her participate without distracting the people behind me (cause they are really far back from where we are…more upfront so she can see )

 

[Theodora]

How did they stop it?

If I recall correctly it was announced in the official archdiocese weekly the Tiding “no more handholding.”

Anyone else from the L.A. County Archdiocese who remembers how it happened?