Have Muslims misinterpreted much of their quran or

[elwill]

elwil ~

actually, we do have original copies of the Injil.

we do not have translations upon translations as many believe, rather we have thousands of manuscripts in multiple languages, some dating from the inital decades of Jesus’ ministry, all in 97-99 percent agreement with one another.

none of the differences from manuscript to manuscript have any impact on the dosctrines of Jesus’ eternal Sonship, divinity, crucifixion for our sins, resurrection from the tomb, or role as mediator between man and God.

we also have many epistles from the disciples (John and Peter, for example) which affirm the apostles’ belief is Jesus as Lord and Savior and God’s Son, who was crucified for our sins and risen from the dead. early church documents and letters refering to these documents affirm the authorship of these epistles, and their early dates.

then it will be fair that if we differed in something , we can back up what the early copies says ?
by the way i meant by original this one which written by the apostles themselfs in their aramic languge , but never mind anyway

 

[elwill]

And again, if you look at scripture with Catholic eyes, along with the writings of the earliest Church fathers, you see that the Church and the key Catholic doctrines were in place very early on, so it’s not a case of the scriptures getting warped in translation. To simplify it to an extreme degree, the Church is not based on the scriptures, the scriptures are based on the Church.

what i know is that through first 300 years , there were hundreds of canons and hundreds of sects and different beliefs about jesus and his idinitity
and i knew that from many decumentry films by the tongue of christians themselfs

 

[elwill]

Here’s one thing…I want answered. Why did Muhammad marry and consumated sex with a nine-year old Aisha. This is just despicable. Is this the kind of person they call a prophet?

that’s far from the subject of this thread ,
their are many threads talking about that

thanx

 

[PadraigPearce]

that’s far from the subject of this thread ,
their are many threads talking about that

thanx

Agreed. Way off topic and not helpful.

 

[PadraigPearce]

what i know is that through first 300 years , there were hundreds of canons and hundreds of sects and different beliefs about jesus and his idinitity
and i knew that from many decumentry films by the tongue of christians themselfs

True, there have always been sects in Christianity that denied key doctrines, but belief in Christ’s divinity has been there from the beginning. Read the early fathers. I’m not sure if you’re aware of the fact that Christian dogmas have usually only been declared by the Church because someone somewhere was denying them. The council of Nicaea is sometimes cited as having changed Christian doctrines but it was called to solidify doctrines that were being denied by groups like the Arians.
My point about believing Muhammed over the apostles was that Christianity is based solidly on a historical base, with historical witnesses who were willing to be tortured to death rather than deny the divinity of Christ, which they knew from first hand experience. Islam is based on just the testimony of Muhammed.
I guess what I’m getting at, and I ask this only out of curiosity and not animosity, why do you believe in the credibility of Muhammed?

 

[elwill]

True, there have always been sects in Christianity that denied key doctrines, but belief in Christ’s divinity has been there from the beginning. Read the early fathers. I’m not sure if you’re aware of the fact that Christian dogmas have usually only been declared by the Church because someone somewhere was denying them. The council of Nicaea is sometimes cited as having changed Christian doctrines but it was called to solidify doctrines that were being denied by groups like the Arians.
My point about believing Muhammed over the apostles was that Christianity is based solidly on a historical base, with historical witnesses who were willing to be tortured to death rather than deny the divinity of Christ, which they knew from first hand experience. Islam is based on just the testimony of Muhammed.
I** guess what I’m getting at, and I ask this only out of curiosity and not animosity, why do you believe in the credibility of Muhammed?/**

i know that such sects wee exist in first 300 years

and we believe in the credibility of mohammed (pbuh) , as for we believe that his knowledge is from God directly not from historians records

 

[PadraigPearce]

PadraigPearce;6083197:

True, there have always been sects in Christianity that denied key doctrines, but belief in Christ’s divinity has been there from the beginning. Read the early fathers. I’m not sure if you’re aware of the fact that Christian dogmas have usually only been declared by the Church because someone somewhere was denying them. The council of Nicaea is sometimes cited as having changed Christian doctrines but it was called to solidify doctrines that were being denied by groups like the Arians.
My point about believing Muhammed over the apostles was that Christianity is based solidly on a historical base, with historical witnesses who were willing to be tortured to death rather than deny the divinity of Christ, which they knew from first hand experience. Islam is based on just the testimony of Muhammed.
I** guess what I’m getting at, and I ask this only out of curiosity and not animosity, why do you believe in the credibility of Muhammed?/**

QUOTE]

i know that such sects wee exist in first 300 years

and we believe in the credibility of mohammed (pbuh) , as for we believe that his knowledge is from God directly not from historians records

If you’ll forgive me, that sounds like circular logic. You believe Muhammed is from God, but how do you know that, except through blind faith?

 

[elwill]

elwill;6083431:

If you’ll forgive me, that sounds like circular logic. You believe Muhammed is from God, but how do you know that, except through blind faith?

why do you think that i believe in him through blind faith ?
can i say the same about you , you believe in the bible through blind faith either

 

[Kadaveri]

how will you know what to think of the book if you’ve never read it?

realize that just as Muslims have an Islamic way of looking at the Gospels, so the Christians have a Christian way of looking at the Quran.

As I said, I was judging the content of the opening post. If it is representative of said book as a whole, then it’s not a trustworthy book.

I do not find having a ‘Christian way’ of looking at the Qur’an to be an adequate defence for turning what it says upside down. That’s just looking at the Qur’an in a totally wrong and dishonest way. That the Qur’an explicitly rejects the Trinity and Jesus being the Son of God is not something that can be credibly denied.

 

[jakasaki]

Without the Old Testmant & New Testmant being in written form/books there would be NO koran and NO islam.

 

[spn82756]

i know that such sects wee exist in first 300 years

and we believe in the credibility of mohammed (pbuh) , as for we believe that his knowledge is from God directly not from historians records

But it is only because of historical records that you have the Koran. Do you not use the history of Mohammad’s life style as a guide in addition to the Koran?

The statement seems contradictory.

Of course…as Christians…the historicity of Jesus is apparent through the Gospels and other New Testament books as well as other non-religious writings of the time.

 

[Monica4316]

i agree with you that we have commons in many things as you said
we believe he is the massiah , and we believe in his miraclous birth and we believe he is the word of God , but from our view all these attributes have nothing to do with divinity

from our view , you are the ones who mistranslated or misinformed about him

anyway just as a brief answer , we believe that he is God’s Word, ("**Be!" **- and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary)

and we believe that God created him by his spirit , or with another words , he is spirit from God , and we believe either that adam be created from spirit of God , Adam and jesus (pbut) be created with the same manner

why? why would God create Jesus in this way if he’s just a prophet? with Adam it was different cause he was the first human being.

And again, if you look at scripture with Catholic eyes, along with the writings of the earliest Church fathers, you see that the Church and the key Catholic doctrines were in place very early on, so it’s not a case of the scriptures getting warped in translation. To simplify it to an extreme degree, the Church is not based on the scriptures, the scriptures are based on the Church.

what i know is that through first 300 years , there were hundreds of canons and hundreds of sects and different beliefs about jesus and his idinitity
and i knew that from many decumentry films by the tongue of christians themselfs

all those sects were heresies outside the Church. The Church has always believed in the divinity of Christ, and has always had consistent doctrine… all the early Church Fathers agree, even the ones who personally knew the Apostles. The sects you’re talking about were never Christian, they were Gnostic, etc, they were not part of the Church and were in fact condemned. The Church has passed on the correct teachings right from the Apostles, who saw Jesus being resurrected from the dead He proved that He is God by conquering death and redeeming the world. He has also shown us what real love is by dying on the Cross.

God bless

 

[spn82756]

all those sects were heresies outside the Church. The Church has always believed in the divinity of Christ, and has always had consistent doctrine… all the early Church Fathers agree, even the ones who personally knew the Apostles. The sects you’re talking about were never Christian, they were Gnostic, etc, they were not part of the Church and were in fact condemned. The Church has passed on the correct teachings right from the Apostles, who saw Jesus being resurrected from the dead He proved that He is God by conquering death and redeeming the world. He has also shown us what real love is by dying on the Cross.

God bless

That is why true Christianity has out lived the false beliefs. Jesus said that Satan would never prevail against His Church.

I am well aware of the sins of the Church during the Reformation and Inquisition. BUT…can you imagine in modern society saying that an apostate from Christianity is to be put to death? If Islam is the true religion…which we know it is not…why do they have to threaten people that want to leave Islam with death. It seems as though Muslims don’t fool around when it comes to their idea of apostasy. It’s not easy to convert from Islam to Christianity in the Middle East and Southern Asia. Not only are you threatened with death for seeing the light…but you are disowned by friends and family. You can loose your job. Loose rights as a citizen. Loose inheritance…and on and on.

I don’t want to say with absolute certain…but what other MAJOR religion accepts these things as the normal punishment? Not the exception to the rule.

 

[spn82756]

And so, Muslims really have no fear of misinterpreting the Qur’an because we have the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to refer to in order for us to obtain the most accurate interpretation of the Qur’an possible.

**Well…why Shitte…Sunni…****Wahhabi…******The Kharijites…Druze… Sufi…******Nation of Islam…and on and on.

Christians admit to different interpretations of various aspects of the Bible. Except the core believe about Jesus. If you have the most accurate interpretation of the Qur’an possible…meaning exactly what God wants you to know…then why are there so many sects in Islam?
**

 

[Monica4316]

That is why true Christianity has out lived the false beliefs. Jesus said that Satan would never prevail against His Church.

I am well aware of the sins of the Church during the Reformation and Inquisition. BUT…can you imagine in modern society saying that an apostate from Christianity is to be put to death? If Islam is the true religion…which we know it is not…why do they have to threaten people that want to leave Islam with death. It seems as though Muslims don’t fool around when it comes to their idea of apostasy. It’s not easy to convert from Islam to Christianity in the Middle East and Southern Asia. Not only are you threatened with death for seeing the light…but you are disowned by friends and family. You can loose your job. Loose rights as a citizen. Loose inheritance…and on and on.

I don’t want to say with absolute certain…but what other MAJOR religion accepts these things as the normal punishment? Not the exception to the rule.

hmm good point

I love how Jesus said, “love your enemy” do good to those who hurt you… pray for those who persecute you… and forgive

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

was the author confused?

I find the following verse one of the most interesting ones in the Quran:

4:171 …
Add this to the fact that in the 4th century there was a group of misguided Collyridiansians in Arabia, mostly women, who worshipped the Blessed Virgin.

One other curious passage which I have not personally heard Muslims explain very well is this strange verse:

And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! [S. 9:30; Pickthal]

Most Jews on this forum would read this passage and go, “What? We don’t worship Ezra as the Son of God.” Most Christians know Jews do not worship Ezra as the Son of God. Even hadith sources admit that it was only a small sect of Jews at Medina that worshiped Ezra as a Son of God (and would probably be considered by most Jews to be heretics). Therefore, why is the author of the Koran saying all Jews worship Ezra as the Son of God just as all Christians worship Jesus as the Son of God? Why are they calling the Jews perverse and, if you read the previous verse (the infamous S. 9:29), telling Muslims to make war against them…for something that Jews don’t even do!

I would argue that much of the history of the revelation of the Koran is grounded in conveniency and the need for Mohammad to reveal passages according to their need, as well as the history behind when certain passages were revealed in place of ones that came before. This is why so much of it seems to only be relevant at the time of Mohammad (with S. 9:30 being an example) or inconsistent with what comes along with it.

when we compare what we believe to be words of God with some scriptures which is copy of copy of copy of translation from lost original one which supposed to be written by apostle. hence you can understand why we believe that its’s you who misinformed

Then I will ask this:

Could you please direct me to where in the world I could find the original Koran which was held in the hands of Mohammad himself?

Christians admit to different interpretations of various aspects of the Bible. Except the core believe about Jesus. If you have the most accurate interpretation of the Qur’an possible…meaning exactly what God wants you to know…then why are there so many sects in Islam?

---

If you want to go even further than that, there are at least six different traditional Muslim beliefs about what happened at the crucifixion - I can cite Muslim scholars to attest to this. On the contrary, virtually every orthodox Christian denomination knows what happened at the crucifixion, and all four gospels attest to the same thing.

Also, if one studies early Islamic history, there are far, far, far more sects than the ones you just mentioned. Therefore I personally find it funny when Muslims point to early sects of heretics simply labeled “Christians,” whereas there were just as many sects of heretics calling themselves “Muslims” within the first few hundred years of Islam’s history. This is similar to the common argument of Muslims that textual variances within the Bible prove it is tarnished, when there are also textual variances within the Koran as well. Unfortunately, many (though I wouldn’t say all) Muslim apologists choose to take these types of double standards.

 

[Monica4316]

And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! [S. 9:30; Pickthal]

 

[hamba2han]

**Well…why Shitte…Sunni…****Wahhabi…******The Kharijites…Druze… Sufi…******Nation of Islam…and on and on.

Christians admit to different interpretations of various aspects of the Bible. Except the core believe about Jesus. If you have the most accurate interpretation of the Qur’an possible…meaning exactly what God wants you to know…then why are there so many sects in Islam?
**

There has always been minor differences in opinion among Muslims, even among the companions of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

However, when we examine the beliefs of the different sects that exists today and the notable differences that exists between them, it is fairly obvious that for the most part, they are not properly adhering to the Sunnah but are instead following their own desires and interests based on such things as parochialism, tribalism, tradition, etc.

Be that as it may, at least Muslims have the Qur’an and the Sunnah to refer to in order for us to get back into line if we go astray and straighten ourselves out so to speak.

What do Christians use as a reference in order to go back to the original teachings of Jesus (pbuh)?

If you say the Church, then I would say that none of the disciples of Jesus (pbuh) after his alleged crucifixion ever crossed themselves when they prayed or built a cross at their places of worship.

 

[Delta2]

The Holy Qur’an is full of inaccuracies, contradictions, inconsistencies, redundancies, no chronology or chapters, grammatical errors, etc.

A darned animal with four legs known as a goat ate a piece of the all-powerful Allah’s Quran

allah didn’t save his own words from the goat, How could that be the Word of God ? the Word of God is living, the Word of God is Jesus

“Narrated by Hazrat Ā’ishah that ayat-e-Rajm and ayat Raza’at were revealed, they were written on something. I kept them under the cart, meanwhile the holy prophet died and we became busy and one GOAT came and ATE those ayyat” (Ibn-e-Maja).

Also found in Sunan Ibne Majah, Volume 2, Pages 39, Published Karachi.

In 1972, during the restoration of the Great Mosque of Sana’a, in Yemen, laborers working in a loft between the structure’s inner and outer roofs stumbled across a remarkable gravesite, they had found Koran manuscripts. The impact of the Yemeni manuscripts is still to be felt

Their variant readings and verse orders are all very significant.

 

[schaick]

I understand completely why Muslims need the hadtih-the Quran is vague and incomplete so of course hadith must be used to get through it.

The following verse shows that Mohammad/allah did not understand the concept that Christian do not have 3 godss, but that our GOD is the One True GOD:

5.73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

Again Mohammad /allah very confused he for sure is talking about the 4th century there was a group of misguided Collyridiansians in Arabia, mostly women, who worshipped the Blessed Virgin.

5.116 And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, **worship me and my mother as gods **in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.