Have You Experienced the "Dark Night of the Soul"?

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Joysong:
Padraig, maybe you could do a “parable for dummies” version of your story?

Keep in mind, folks, that this is serious thread-drift.
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Hi Padraig -

You know it would probably be a good idea to put this issue to rest as it confuses posters and is a distraction to this thread.

I’m not usually the suspicious type but I can’t help but think what you’re doing here is casting your opinion of certain posters on this thread in the role of Mother Presumpta as a thinly veiled personal attack. I sure hope not. Please tell me I’m wrong.
 
There is the wood and then there are the trees.

"But now the power of Easter has burst upon us with the resurrection of Christ. Now we find in ourselves a strength which is not our own, and which is freely given to us whenever we need it, raising us above the Law, giving us a new law which is hidden in Christ: the law of His merciful love for us. Now we no longer strive to be good because we have to, because it is a duty, but because our joy is to please Him who has given all His love to us! Now our life is full of meaning!

… To understand Easter and live it, we must renounce our dread of newness and of freedom!”

From: Seasons of Celebration by Thomas Merton (Farrar, Straus and Giroux, New York 1986), Pages 145-46.

Website Details:

The Thomas Merton Foundation contactus@mertonfoundation.org

Thomas Merton – Reflections – Weekly – Tuesday 29th. March 2005
 
:confused: Barb,

It puzzles me why folks are sending messages in parable form. Did your post have some relevant meaning for the thread topic?
 
This is an intersting thread that seems to have really veered off topic as to loose the intent on what it was originally about.

It sounds interesting and I would like to read about it more, however is there any simpler reading that speaks in laymans terms? There are some nice readings here, however they are a bit too deep for someone who is knew to the concept.
 
Welcome, Shinobu,

Always nice to see new faces! Yes, it is a disservice to Journeyman who began the thread eons ago, but it’s also a frailty of human nature to get side-tracked. You see this all the time in our daily conversations, no?

Generally, whenever a person tries to follow Christ in a serious manner and experiences one or more severe trials, well-meaning folks approach them to say, “Aw, you’re just going through the Dark Night of the Soul.”

Problem is, the remark is so ill-understood by the one making it, and less so by the one who listens, that it can cause deep confusion. It has become a catch-all phrase to cover all suffering.

However, what we are trying to point out here, is that the actual phrase was one written by St. John of the Cross, and directed to those in monastic communities who were undergoing passive purification in advanced stages of spirituality. Primarily, it was for those with the contemplative vocation, whose whole life was dedicated to prayer. As our saints have written, do not desire to be a contemplative unless you are ready for the cross, for they truly suffer immensely. Lest I offend those who dislike my quoting, I will not provide the reference here, but one is in Way of Perfection.

In a nutshell, I hope this is more of a layman’s description that you can grasp. I wouldn’t worry too much about whether or not you are, or may be some day in the so-called “Dark Night,” for it is something usually pertaining to a later stage of spirituality. God has many ways of awakening such a person to find the helps available to understand their condition, such as these very works. It delights me to know that others have gone before us, and have shared their insights for posterity, so that we are not left to struggle alone. Their words are not useless old-time fables, IMO, but treasures to live by in any age.

So may we repeat the beautiful words of the psalmist, “I busy not myself with things too sublime for me.”

Much peace and joy to you,
Carole
 
Hi especially to Carole/Joysong/Padraig/Springbreeze!!

I will start a (probably short?) thread about Ruth Burrows’ interpretation of St Teresa’ mansions in particular, because what she has to say really is very helpful. I’d even go so far as to say any serious “contemplative pray-er” SHOULD read her books: “Guidelines for Mystical Prayer” and “Interior Castle explored”. They are small, very readable books, not too heavy for lay readers, whereas a book like “Fire Within” by Thomas Dubay, while excellent, is much heavier going.
St Teresa may be the great teacher, along with St John of the Cross, but because of the phenomena that accompanied her prayer life, many who don’t experience the ecstasy, rapture, type of thing (which is largely a matter of personality, psychological make-up,and/or the sheer gift of God) may remain utterly confused as to where they are in terms of progress in prayer.Those phenomena are side-effects only, not essentials. Which is why many don’t realise that St Therese, who didn’t manifest those things, and who didn’t find St Teresa helpful, I might add, actually did pass through all those stages of prayer.

If most Carmelite nuns (believe me, I know this from the inside!) don’t find St Teresa a very clear guide on prayer (in terms of being able to clearly identify with her particular EXPERIENCES at different stages) then heaven help lay people who don’t have such ready access to guidance.
That’s why I think Ruth Burrows is a useful guide, and I hope to explain some of her thoughts in a new thread soon (but not at great length as I haven’t time, and it is really better to read her books:) )
 
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Joysong:
Welcome, Shinobu,

Always nice to see new faces! Yes, it is a disservice to Journeyman who began the thread eons ago, but it’s also a frailty of human nature to get side-tracked. You see this all the time in our daily conversations, no?

Generally, whenever a person tries to follow Christ in a serious manner and experiences one or more severe trials, well-meaning folks approach them to say, “Aw, you’re just going through the Dark Night of the Soul.”

Problem is, the remark is so ill-understood by the one making it, and less so by the one who listens, that it can cause deep confusion. It has become a catch-all phrase to cover all suffering.

However, what we are trying to point out here, is that the actual phrase was one written by St. John of the Cross, and directed to those in monastic communities who were undergoing passive purification in advanced stages of spirituality. Primarily, it was for those with the contemplative vocation, whose whole life was dedicated to prayer. As our saints have written, do not desire to be a contemplative unless you are ready for the cross, for they truly suffer immensely. Lest I offend those who dislike my quoting, I will not provide the reference here, but one is in Way of Perfection.

In a nutshell, I hope this is more of a layman’s description that you can grasp. I wouldn’t worry too much about whether or not you are, or may be some day in the so-called “Dark Night,” for it is something usually pertaining to a later stage of spirituality. God has many ways of awakening such a person to find the helps available to understand their condition, such as these very works. It delights me to know that others have gone before us, and have shared their insights for posterity, so that we are not left to struggle alone. Their words are not useless old-time fables, IMO, but treasures to live by in any age.

So may we repeat the beautiful words of the psalmist, “I busy not myself with things too sublime for me.”

Much peace and joy to you,
Carole
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Thank you very much! That was much help, I tried to read what others had posted here but it was a little lenghy and a bit too deep for me to fully grasp such a new concept that I had not heard before. I just needed someone to dumb it down for me. 😃

Thank you
 
I think I have. But as I’ve only been a Catholic for about a year, I could be wrong. About a year and a half ago I read Dark Night of the Soul, and all I could think as I read it was, “been there, done that. Been there, and done that, too.” For me, it was several years ago, and as a Pentacostal Protestant, didn’t know what to call it. It was definately the darkest period of my life in every way.

When I was a child, my best friend’s family were radical Satanists. They “chose” me to learn their ways, which to put it nicely, involved breaking all ten commandments in the most literal way. Needless to say, this left me with a lot of scars. I survived, but that’s all. About 8 years ago, I prayed, “God, whatever is between you and me, get rid of it!” Dangerous prayer. Slowly the closet I had locked all my secrets in was opened and I began to relive it all over again. Finally I went for counseling. Actually it was marriage counseling with a wonderful Christian counselor. Kind of a “tell my husband how messed up he is,” sort of thing. 6 years later, I was done. Believe me, I started with the small stuff first. Straight molestation. But one day I handed my therapist a paper I had written describing a sacrifice I had been a part of. My fervent prayer was that he would tell me I was making it up. No such luck. After about a year, I started telling him there were “other me’s” in the various scenes I would describe. To make a long story short, I had Dissociative Identity Disorder. More commonly known as Multiple Personalities. Now this alone isn’t what makes me call it a Dark Night. Prior to this, I had known the joy of the Lord and the presence of the Lord. I was involved in ministry and studying to be a pastor. When I was diagnosed, I knew I would need the Lord more than ever. I knew with certainty that just as I was “chosen” as a child, Satan would not let go of that tie easily. Even if I would never go back to worshiping him, he wanted to keep me from finding healing from God working through the therapist. Which was how my therapist described it. God did the healing. He was just the empty vessal. But not only was my head a mess and my emotions a mess, I couldn’t seem to find God anywhere. Or Jesus. Intellectually, I knew he was there, but my soul couldn’t find him. During those six years, I truly identified with Jesus when he cried from the cross, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Looking back, I can see how God sustained me. I never went into the hospital. Never had to take anti-depressents, and became fully integrated much quicker than is usual - especially considering I had over 100 different personalities or fragments of personalities when I started. And as good as life is today - and it is very, very good - I know I will never forget those years when I searched diligently for him who my heart loved most and couldn’t find him anywhere because the dark was so dark.
 
Dear Kris,

Welcome to the Forum, and God bless you in your new walk with Him as a Catholic. His mercy is above our imaginings, and He certainly has held you in His hand through some very dark times.

May you remain ever close to Him and walk in His ways!

Carole
 
Hi Carole,

Good to see you again,

Your explanation was the very reason I had not entered this thread. Every suffering is definitely not a “Dark Night of the Soul” I suppose there may be more than one definition, but it is not a term to be used lightly.

Perhaps an “Evening of the Soul” may more describe normal human suffering, but I do remember all too well reading of the 2 purifying Dark nights, which St John said through which we must pass before entering contemplation.

The first, when we feel abandoned by all human consolation, and the second when we feel abandoned by Divine consolation—“My God, my God, why have You forsaken me”

It really made me ponder my desire for contemplation.
 
Hi - I’m back! aka ‘Brabble’ - if you really want the whole sorry longwinded ho hum saga of why I registered and deregistered hop over to The Water Cooler and catch my post yesterday. I’ve re registered as BarbaraTherese which is part of my real name - although the forum registration liked Brabble after a few attempts to register back in 2004 with a variation of my own name (the forum registration kept telling me someone was already using that tag), I never did!
I don’t want to raise an issue that quite possibly is best concluded, but I did like Padraig’s Mother Presumptua tale and appreciated the moral in it with quite a few smiles . . .we can tend to miss the wood at times for the trees.

Hi again Joysong - My quotation from Thomas Merton is very for sure a parable and I anyway can see the connection with the Dark Night but shan’t go into it just in case trees get in the way of the wood. But then, I really do have a reputation for being, well, strange at times. My friends say ‘eccentric’ and others say ‘mad’.

I’ve been floating round the forum catching up more or less with what’s happening in threads, posts etc. and while I was away I did chase up my own description of The Dark Night (not anecdotal) polished it and typed it into Word.

Good to be back after panicking completely when my inbox went over 40 and also a few problems to deal with here in Bethany.

Catcha on the merry go round -
Barb:whacky:
 
Hi JoySong -

Carole -
I have been going thru this thread trying to locate the quotation from Thomas Merton that you mentioned in your post re ‘parables’ in this Dark Night Thread, though it seems the thread has gone cold. Not being aufait with computers and associated technology and etc. etc. I wonder if you would tell me how I can locate the quotation I gave…the post date etc. (I am a prolific writer and where I wrote what can get to be quite a task!) and I’m fairly sure anyway it was one of his Easter thoughts “to understand Easter we must loose our dread of newness and of free dom” this quote is preceded by his words of what Easter is in the light of God’s Loving Mercy/rules etc…you may not recall it! I can’t locate it in the Dark Night thread - can you give me any clues - there is something I want to CHECK in that thread/post.
Being a Senior Member you probably know how to skip round the board in a flash!
Regards
Barb
 
Barb,

It is post #101 which appears in the top righthand corner of each post. It just seemed to me like an ordinary Easter message, so if you meant it to speak something else, you may need to clarify it.

I don’t use the “*search” * function very often, so I’m not sure if I can help you learn it. I’m a newbie, too! 🙂

Carole
 
Hi Carole

Thanks for the response. It looks to me as if the Dark Night thread has gone cold and other than your query re parable there was no interest in the quote shown in the Dark Night thread. No point in raising the issue since the thread seems cold and no interest in the quote really. But thanks for locating it for me. I am still trying to learn my way around the Board. I could see from my subscription list that you had replied to my query, but I’ve had the devil of a time trying to locate it. No matter, I’ll learn eventually the ins and outs of The Board and procedures etc. Sorry, I thought I saw “Senior Member” over your name, forgive me if I was wrong. Newbie huh, well welcome to a newbie from another newbie! Although I think the grading stuff: ‘Senior-Junior etc.’(the colour of habit(joke) to hearken back to Padraig’s parable in the DN thread) is determined by the number of times one posts to the Board.

I simply wanted to check something in my Merton quote post in the DN thread and also a couple of posts that I was sure came just before it. It’s only for my own reference.

Here its 10.20pm - not too sure what it would be your time - but have a good day or night whatever when you catch up with this.

Send regards,

Barb
 
Hi Barb,
Sorry, I thought I saw “Senior Member” over your name, forgive me if I was wrong. Newbie huh, well welcome to a newbie from another newbie!
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Yes, I suppose they have graded me as a senior member due to the number of posts, but I have only been here about six months. I have not learned how to use the search function very well, for every time I tried it, some things appeared that had nothing to do with what I was looking for. When I tried to learn in the Tech area, I finally gave up after scrolling through several pages of posts. I just don’t have that kind of time, honestly.

I take it you did find your missing post? It is on the very top of page three.

Due to the title of this thread, I can see reasons for its dying off. It suggests that the reader identify whether or not they feel they have experienced the Dark Night, and I presume it means in the context of St. John of the Cross’s writings. So few of us, if any, can say yes to that, and if we could reply in the affirmative, so few would be able to describe it in order to make sense to a reader of the thread.

I thought it was for the best, after we clarified that it is a rare occurrance, and therefore it will not be too relevant to the majority.

Warmly,
Carole
 
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Joysong:
Hi Barb,

Yes, I suppose they have graded me as a senior member due to the number of posts, but I have only been here about six months. I have not learned how to use the search function very well, for every time I tried it, some things appeared that had nothing to do with what I was looking for. When I tried to learn in the Tech area, I finally gave up after scrolling through several pages of posts. I just don’t have that kind of time, honestly.

I take it you did find your missing post? It is on the very top of page three.

Due to the title of this thread, I can see reasons for its dying off. It suggests that the reader identify whether or not they feel they have experienced the Dark Night, and I presume it means in the context of St. John of the Cross’s writings. So few of us, if any, can say yes to that, and if we could reply in the affirmative, so few would be able to describe it in order to make sense to a reader of the thread.

I thought it was for the best, after we clarified that it is a rare occurrance, and therefore it will not be too relevant to the majority.
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Hi Carole -
Taking above point by point m/less:

When I was on the Board as Brabble, I did pick up (at least not a complete incompetant!.. well that is…as yet. Ah well if I do degenerate further then The Lord has use for a complete incompetant is obvious!) that the grading was probably according to number of posts submitted to the Forum. As for me, I still struggle to understand the ins and outs of the computer per se without the to me complexities at times of this Forum Board:whacky: - but picking up things here and there that sorta add up eventually - patience, trust . . . since Jesus has told us that The Father knows even when a hair falls from our heads also ‘worth more than many sparrows’, The Lord has his finger in the pie as it were in the most minute of matters to the greatest.

As yet I have not had time to go back and check what I wanted to check and only for my own reference - something else has intervened here in Bethany that asks focus and I’ve had to re arrange priorites, although I hope to stay in touch with The Forum/Board. Thanks for your help! I have put your reference re my Thomas Merton quote in the Dark Night thread into an email folder and its sitting there for when I have the time.

I thought the thread was quite speculative on the point of The Dark Night of The Spirit and I found it interesting and also a mental exercise - but as you say, the thread started out as “have you every experienced The Dark Night” or similar . I am not at all confident where the rules and regulations of this Board etc. are concerned. Although I have referred to them a couple of times. Ye olde computer takes in so much and then gets forgetful - but The Lord will bring to mind, whatever, what is necessary and that is just simply the way I walk in life. I did not realize that a thread had to stick precisely to the originating thread statement or question. Not that I have ever in my conscious life been good at rules and regulations - its the spirit of the rule to me not the letter of the law. No matter! When in Rome if yer wanno stay there - ya better do as the Romans do …joke…and something like that!

For whatever reason it is closed or gone cold or whatever - fact of life and I guess we all know what a fact of life is (or hopefully!) - I shant give you the rather humourous Aussie definition of a fact of life … doubtless my membership on this board would be in jeopardy I should think from what I have gleaned thus far! Here’s one on ‘Authority’ drawn from Anthony de Mello - for the laugh of it!

"Boy is sitting in a theatre with a very tall man in front of him, blocking the screen.
"Can you see, sonny?" says the man
"Well, no sir, I cannot." says the boy
"Oh that’s o.k. sonny, you just laugh when I laugh and you’ll be fine!"

(Anthony de Mello, SJ - ‘Awareness’ Chapter on 'Authority")

That I guess is another parable type statement.

Thanks for responding to me Carole and digging out the Merton quote and the location, much appreciated.

Catcha on the Board sometime maybe -

Regards,
Barb
South Australia
2.38pm
Now its: Up! Up! and AWAY ! … if you can’t laugh at something, give up and go home is my motto more or less…and without getting ridiculous and pedantic.

PS I have chased up a scripture scholar priest friend of mine because ‘bramble bush’ now and then keeps cominhg into my mind. I’ve checked New Advent and it was God talking to Moses through a burning bramble bush alright - but I’ll ask my SS pal because I have a few other things I’d like to clear up on the subject of Moses and the bramble bush, geography etc. etc. - just for interest and info.
…and now for sure I am off the subject raised in this thread…
 
Dear Journeyman,

Sorry that I don’t have time to read all the replies, and perhaps someone has already mentioned this. I checked the website you posted about the dark night. I worry about all the new age, eastern, and other pagan religion info on that site. I would trust a good Catholic site for good Catholic information. I would not rely on such a web site for accurate Catholic info. How did you find that site?
 
Hi all -

I’m re registered, long tale, boring, and was 'Brabble’.

I have been doing a bit of reading of this thread, because I am looking for a couple of posts…then I stumbled across what I hadn’t noticed as the thread unfolded and I was then posting to it. I did not infer that mental illness and The Dark Night are one and the same. Pas de tout!..mental illness could, I repeat, could be a trial permitted by God within the overall context of what we refer to as The Dark Night of The Spirit. I was not referring to the Night of Sense, simply because I was not referring to it. St. John of The Cross’s work is titled ‘The Dark Night’. This is not to infer that there is not a Night of Sense…
There are two distinct sufferings thus experienced - psycholgoical (mental illness) and spiritual (The Dark Night of The Spirit - so termed and analysed). There are incidental or ‘peculiar’ factors and also criteria. By ‘peculiar’ I mean particular to the individual undergoing The Dark Night of Spirit. In this ‘night’ night does become light…and that does not seem to make senses because it is a spiritual experience and we do not have the appropriate language. It is an analogy and a ‘something like’.
Regards out there
Barb
Bethany Place, South Australia
Thur. 7.4.05 11.12pm
 
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