Have You Experienced the "Dark Night of the Soul"?

[reen12]

padraig,



reen12

 

[John_19_59]

The moral of your tale lost me.

Does Jesus maybe like sluggers?

I sincerely hope Sister Patrica was called to “repent and believe” as we all are - to set aside her soiled garments for heavenly robes.

“Go and sin no more”?

or

“You’re fine as you are”?

Mind - if hell is empty then I suppose we’re all fine as we are.

 

[padraig]

I’m still a little lost John. What’s poor Sister Patricia on the greased rails to hell for?
Slugging Mother Presumpta? Seems to me she had it coming!
Drinking whisky? Well then hell will be full of Irish!
Puncturing balloons? Well seems to me Jesus did the same thing…should get a medal for it!!!
Poor old Patricia’s getting the raw end of the deal here!:tiphat:

 

[John_19_59]

Sorry I thought Sister Patrica was supposed to be a bride of Christ.

The moral of the tale is…what??

Sister Patrica has chosen the best part?

Why didn’t the Carpenter tell her to sort her life out?

Maybe she didn’t need to?

 

[padraig]

Alright then, I’ll add this bit unto the story, John, to keep you happy!
…and after Sister Patricia had knocked Mother Presumpta out Jesus lost His temper with her and dragged her screaming off to hell and that was that! Better now?

 

[Joysong]

Dear ATeNumquam,

Anyway, that’s a bit beside the point. I did find her re-interpretation of the Interior Castle quite fascinating and refreshing, and felt that she hit upon some very important points that need clarification.

You certainly perked my interest, dear friend! Would you consider possibly starting a thread to point out some of these clarifications? If not, I would welcome a private message pointing what some of these might be, if you don’t mind.

I need to tell you that I just noticed your signature line, and I was most impressed! This is my prayer everytime I receive communion, but I never really saw the words in latin. “Keep me faithful to your teachings, and never let me be parted from you.” Beautiful!


Carole

 

[Joysong]

Dear Padraig,

The invitation above is also extended to you, for you read the book and mentioned it previously.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Maureen,

By the by, how rare does everyone think the Dark Night of the soul is? One poster suggested that anyone experiencing same wouldn’t be here posting away. I tend to agree with that.
Father Groeschel once said that if anyone watching his program was in the unitive way, to please turn off his program and go pray for him!

I don’t know whether you saw this excerpt of St. Teresa’s earlier in the thread, but it teaches us that persons who undergo the D/N are quite able to function and perform many works of charity. You know that she founded many convents during her experience of it. The grace does not prevent activity whatsoever, but enhances it.

“The thing is inexpressible, for this distress and oppression are spiritual troubles and cannot be given a name. The best medicine is to occupy oneself with external affairs and works of charity and hope in God’s mercy.”

As for Fr. Groeschel’s comment, I disagree, and take it with a grain of salt, because he distorts truth purposely with his wit and humor, just to make a point. I have seen him speak in person, and this was his usual method of keeping the audience alert.

Why do I disagree? Because many enter the unitive way spoken about in the 5th mansion, but few go beyond it for varying reasons. (According to St. Teresa)

As for the other (D/N), one can only guess how rare it is, but I believe there are a few souls on the planet that walk this road, although perhaps not with the same intensity as the saints. God had called them to heroic sanctity for the benefit of many, many souls, so it was probably granted in a far more intense manner to them.

 

[reen12]

Dear Joysong,

Many thanks for your observations. I have the
tendency to equate Dark Night of the Soul with
the symptoms of depression, which is a mistake
on my part.

Experiencing depression does not prevent me from
doing good works, but I know that there are many
times when a good work is not done by me because
I just can’t get it in gear to move off the couch.

Who knows? Maybe Christ sees the acceptance of
this illness and bearing with it as a good work.

It’s good to know that people in the unitive way are
still able to do good works and involve themselves
in the life around them.

I am glad that you are well read in terms of the
mystics and can share your insights with us,

Cordially,
reen12

 

[Joysong]

Hi Maureen,

Experiencing depression does not prevent me from doing good works, but I know that there are many times when a good work is not done by me because I just can’t get it in gear to move off the couch.

At least you have a good excuse! There are some of us who fall under the heading of those works “that I have failed to do” which we confess at each mass with the other pray-ers.

Those who suffer chronic depression have a virtual battle to overcome almost daily. The times I have encountered it in myself have taught me to be very sympathetic with others. Much of battleground is in the mind, and I have had to force myself to ignore the barrage of thoughts that trigger self-pity, and get myself moving. Work is excellent therapy, I have found, (when I can get off the couch )

I went through some terrible trials earlier in my life, and it is very easy to get caught up in their severity. One lovely prayer helped me a lot, “Lord, help to accept the things I cannot change, change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.”

Peace be with you always!

Carole

 

[ATeNumquam]

Joysong:

Dear ATeNumquam,

You certainly perked my interest, dear friend! Would you consider possibly starting a thread to point out some of these clarifications? If not, I would welcome a private message pointing what some of these might be, if you don’t mind.

I’d really like to do so, and clearly Padraig has things to say, too! Ruth Burrows (this, I’ve just discovered, is the correct spelling of her name!) is well worth reading by anyone interested in Carmelite spirituality.
But I’ll have to dig out my copy of her book “Guidelines for Mystical Prayer”, where she discusses the Mansions, as I’m a bit rusty as to what she said exactly, and I’ve no time today (I’m actually at work, in my lunch break) and will have no time tonight.

Just as an aside, I spent 11 1/2 years as a Discalced Carmelite nun, (left in 1987) and I tend to avoid taking part in discussions on Carmelite spirituality because I am NOT an authority, and, really, I’d rather try and live it (albeit as a lay person) than talk about it.
But my love for Carmelite spirituality, and the saints of Carmel, is huge.

When I was on my way into the Church in my late teens (now mid-50s), I read in the then Latin missal the priest’s prayer before communion, and wanted to make my own the prayer “Never let me be separated from You” - especially as at that time it seemed my violently anti-Catholic family would have done whatever they could to stop me following what I knew was His will.
Hence my signature!

 

[reen12]

Dear joysong,

I hear you, Carole!

reen12

I pray to the God of Israel and hope that Jesus
is the Messiah.

 

[padraig]

ATeNumquam, it sounds like you have had an interesting life of it! It is any years since I read Ruth Burroughs and I have no copies of her books, but just a couple of comments on her and her writings as Carole requested.
She is (or now was) a large stout English lady.She knows Saint Tereasa back to front and has. I suppose a like any good Carmeilte a very deep love for her spiritual mother. Ruth went thrugh the dark night into Transforming Union and as such is most certainly worth listening too.
Anyway, (for me) her key point(s)
That there is a great danger for Carmelites in placing Saint Tereasa too much on a pedestal. Calling her the ‘great’ Saint Tereasa, putting her on a pedestal and quoting the dear ladies writings as though they came from Mount Sinai. That the saint herself was unconventional a rebel and a person off new ideas and insight. To be true daughters and sons of Tereasa folks should be prepared to reexamine her…and her writings with a loving critique…from their own experience of prayer. I guess somewhat in the spirit of Vatican 11 which encouraged a revisiting and reinterpretation of spiritual sources in light of our times.
However as ATeNumquam, so insightfully said there is something about her writings that I find vaguely troubling…I can’t quite put my finger on. An element of the big bee in a big bonnet. But she’s certainly very holy, wise and insightful. I don’t know about Carmelite reaction to her but I suppose some would want to put her to the stake while others would like to canonise her.
Her key point however…
She says while Saint Tereasa was alive some of her sisters came to her with a HUGE problem. That they simply could not relate to what Tereasa had written in the Interior Mansions. That in their OWN prayer lives the Mansions was simply irrelevant That when they attempted to discover and place themselves in the model scema of Tereasa they came up with ZILCH.
Ruth stated that such was Ruth’s own experience and that when people cme to Tereasa with this problem the saint simply threw her hands up and didn’t really know what to say…
A good example of such was Saint Therese of the Child Jesus…who does not appear to fit into the Mansions shema easily.
Ruth proposed a second model that of darkness and light. Those in the path of light place themselves naturally in the Mansions those like Ruth must look further…
But I’ve written enough for now or my fingers will fall of…

 

[padraig]

By the way I’m not Carmelite myself, though I love the spirituality,it is not my own…

 

[John_19_59]

and after Sister Patricia had knocked Mother Presumpta out Jesus lost His temper with her and dragged her screaming off to hell and that was that! Better now?

How about “go and sin no more”?

But the Church doesn’t do that anymore (does it?).

The point I’m making is that Jesus just doesn’t sit down with sinners and tax collectors and farting nuns just as a gesture of unity and solidarity with them.

He calls them to repentance and offers forgiveness - if they want it.

Always.

Sister Patrica’s behaviour was unacceptable.

What you have a given us is a post-council morality tale.

 

[padraig]

John,
As Saint Tereasa said, ‘I am a child of the Church’. We’re better not being side tracked by this kick the Pope, dump the Council, Satan’s at the driving wheel stuff. Save it for a more relevant thread were the bee in your rebellious bonnet can come into full play…

 

[John_19_59]

You have to “say what you see” as a famous TV Compare once said.

I was genuinely puzzled by the moral of your tale.

 

[padraig]

Well John I’m glad to see, that if I have you puzzled a Church Council and a succession of Holy Fathers have you equally puzzled (along with poor Sister Patricia)…

 

[Joysong]

Me, too, John. I didn’t get it. It was like one of the parables that could take on multiple meanings. Coming as it did in the middle of this thread on the D/N, it is difficult to realize what slant the author wanted us to take on it.

Padraig, maybe you could do a “parable for dummies” version of your story?

Keep in mind, folks, that this is serious thread-drift.

 

[Joysong]

Dear friend, Padraig,

Anyway, (for me) her key point(s)
That there is a great danger for Carmelites in placing Saint Teresa too much on a pedestal. Calling her the ‘great’ Saint Teresa, putting her on a pedestal and quoting the dear ladies writings as though they came from Mount Sinai.

I have a real problem understanding this, especially since her writings are revered and studied intently in worldwide chapters of Secular Carmelites. Vocations are mounting, as Teresa foretold. Her many books of instruction are the bread and butter of every Secular, and they are not in any danger that I can discern if the refer to her, affectionately, as “great.” Surely we have heard the term applied to the “great” St. Paul, and other spiritual giants? Does that imply these souls are deluded, attaching magical over-importance to their words? Nah.

Her key point however…
She says while Saint Teresa was alive some of her sisters came to her with a HUGE problem. That they simply could not relate to what Teresa had written in the Interior Mansions. That in their OWN prayer lives the Mansions was simply irrelevant That when they attempted to discover and place themselves in the model schema of Teresa they came up with ZILCH.

So, shall we take Ruth Burrow’s words as gospel? This is why I mentioned to you that I go to the top to learn, for often the interpreters of the Masters are expressing their own opinion, which may or may not be accurate. Does the word “some” imply that this was a universal problem, or one belonging only to “some.”

I prefer the following excerpt from St. Teresa from Chapter 4:8 of her Foundations.

Well to return to what I was saying, for I have digressed a great deal, the favors the Lord grants in these houses are so many that if there are one or two in each that God leads now by meditation, all the rest reach perfect contemplation. Some are so advanced that they attain to rapture. To others, the Lord grants a favor of another kind, giving them, along with rapture, revelations and visions that one clearly understands to be from God. There is no house now that does not have one, two, or three who receive this latter favor. Well do I understand that sanctity does not lie in these favors, nor is it my intention to praise only them, but to make it understood that the counsels I want to give have a purpose.

Padraig:

A good example of such was Saint Therese of the Child Jesus…who does not appear to fit into the Mansions schema easily.

Remember, Padraig, that St. Therese was a private soul who kept God’s dealings to herself, especially after her negative experience of revealing the visit from Our Lady.
We can conclude that she was gifted, for she said in her writings that the only food that nourished her soul was the Imitation and the works of St. John of the Cross. Many find him difficult, yet she thrived on them. Doesn’t it speak as to the reason why? There is one part in her book where she described a transport, which indicates she had received a very advanced mystical grace from God.

Warmest regards,
Carole