Have You Experienced the "Dark Night of the Soul"?

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At first it will be more difficult. You must make an effort to seek out the Lord, to thank him for his fatherly and practical concern for us. Although it is not a question of sentiment, little by little the love of God makes itself felt like a rustle in the soul. It is Christ who pursues us lovingly: “Behold, I stand at the door and knock.” How is your life of prayer going? At times don’t you feel during the day the impulse to speak more at length with him? Don’t you then whisper to him that you will tell him all about it later, in a heart-to-heart conversation?

In the periods expressly reserved for this rendezvous with our Lord, the heart is broadened, the will is strengthened, the mind, helped by grace, fills the world of human reality with supernatural content. The results come in the form of clear, practical resolutions to improve your conduct, to deal more charitably with all men, to spare no efforts — like good athletes — in this christian struggle of love and peace.

Prayer then becomes continuous, like the beating of our heart, like our pulse. Without this presence of God, there is no contemplative life. And without contemplative life, our working for Christ is worth very little, for vain is the builder’s toil if the house is not of the Lord’s building.
 
Here is the entry on The Dark Night from the Pocket Catholic Dictionary - John A Hardon, SJ:

"DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL: * General term* in mystical theology to identify every form of purification through which God leads persons to whom he is calling to a high degree of sactity. It is called “night” to distinguish a persons normal spiritual of ‘seeing’. though dimly, by the light of Faith; whereas in mystical purification a person is deprived of much of that light. There is a ‘groping in the night’. It is called a ‘dark night’ to emphasize the intensity to emphasize the intensity of God’s withdrawal of illuminating grace.

The purpose of such purification is to cleanse the soul of every vestige of self love and to unite the person more and more closely with God. As the intellect is thus mortified, the will becomes more firmly attracted to God and more firmly attached to His Divine Will. This purification however is only a means to an end

Namely:

l. To give greater glory to God who is thereby loved for Himself and not for any benefits He confers.
  1. To lead the person thus purified to infused contemplation and even perhaps ecstatic union with God.
  2. To enable to person to be used more effectively by God for the spiritual welfare of others, since the more holy a person is the more meritorious are that person’s prayers, since the more holy the person the more meritorious are that person’s prayers and sacrifices for the human race.
I did not mean to infer that mental illness IS the dark night, what I am saying is a person who suffers a mental illness would not be denied the passive purification of The Dark Night if God desired to lead the person to a high degree of sanctity. They could in fact walk hand in hand - alternatively the person could be in The Dark Night of passive purification and at some stage also develop a mental illness. The Dark Night is a spiritual matter . . . and a person of Faith does not cease to have a concrete spiritual aspect because he/she suffers a mental illness. Nor does a person suffering a mental illness disintegrate as a human being, but can in fact through the experience become a more whole human being. Become more human.
I think there is some spiritual elitism and even ‘snobbery’ afoot and also completely incorrect notions about mental illness. If one reads the definition of TDN above and thinks that a suffere of MI could not experience such, then the person of such thinking would have a completely erroneous notion of mental illness. I repeat a person can suffer a mental illness and remain a whole functioning human being with spiritual faculties.
 
Because I am not ashamed nor hide my illness, I will give you an exmaple of my own experience. For about a year I had not been feeling right - and my spiritual struggle had began prior to this and while my moral theologian was my director. I did not know what was wrong with me, I was drained of energy and I now know I was depressed. One day I had some sort of fit. I felt something evil coming close to me and it frightened me into a state of terror and I had a fit. Because my family did not know what was going on I was admitted to a psychiatric hospital where an EEG was done as it was felt I could be epileptic - the fit had features of epilepsy. It was not epilepsy. I was also being questioned by doctors. They asked me if I could hear voices. Knowing nothing about voices, I thought he meant could I hear people speaking and I replied in the affirmative. They later came to the conclusion I was paranoid schizophrenic and I was placed in the security ward as so frightened was I by the hospital and people in it I refused to talk to anyone - I was very upset that my family had put me there. In the SW I was administred with LSD and that was when I began to hear a voice who identified itself as Satanic - the nature of this voice was to demand I give up my Faith or I would be murdered and went into the gory details. I told it I did not believe it was Satan and I refused the dignify the idiot by giving it an identity. Other frighteneing things happened.

During the course of my near 25 years experience of mental illness, later diagnosed as Bipolar as peole who suffer this illness can, not always, hear voices during an episode. They are termed however pseudo-voices. Because one hears them in the head, not with the ear. I continued to go to Mass on a daily basis as the Catholic Church was near the hospital. While he was alive my moral theologian would visit me. Though I heard the voice, I was still a normal type of human being hearing a voice. The voice continued to torment me in a religious vein and I continued to not listen to it and to give it no affirmation or dignify it by giving it an identity. I continued all my religious practises. I was also deprived of spiritual consolations and my Faith was in darkness but I clung to God still. Though I heard this voice, I was able still to perform normal spiritual duties of going to Mass and the Sacraments. This is not disintegrating human being - and it is wrong to think such, irrational, incorrect - for I am not alone amongst sufferers of mental illness. Mental Illness can range from minor affect through to quite major effect.

About 5 years ago after a long period of the voice not being so frequent and my ability to continue to live normally though hearing it completely stopped with no warning. It just stopped.
No one is going to convince me that during those 25 years I disintegrated as a human being - I in fact grew and I regard myself a far far better person than before I became ill. I am more confident within myself of my own dignity, self esteem and confidence - I also recognize in all others their right to the same. I am a more compassionate, understanding and accepting human being - I have a love for others that is just completely natural. I also still have faults and failings but I do not ‘contemplate my navel’ as it were - my eyes are always on God and on His Loving Mercy and I see creation as his gift to us and others as my brothers and sisters.
Within the mental health system, I have journeyed with people who were quite ill at first and now are normal funtioning everyday people - but according to medicine we still suffer mental illness. Our spirital faculties however are completely intact. Some of course are far more ill than us - but these people I am convinced are beloved of The Lord and if we put them down etc. in anyway then one day we will be asked why . . . I was ill and you did not visit me.
Frankly, I don’t concern myself if I went through a dark night, The Dark Night whatever whatever . . . I don’t contemplate myself, my navel as it were. I keep my eyes always on The Lord.
Although my family at first didn’t want to know me and my mother kept my children from me. Eventually they began to insight mental illness and we were reconciled. My two sons now 39 and 42 would have to be my best friends.
 
Totally the reverse of mental illness, in fact. The individual is becoming more fully human not less so. quote from padraig

Uhhh…huh? A person suffering from mental illness is* not*
becoming more fully human?
What, pray tell, is more human than the experience of
suffering…physical or mental?
An individual suffering round trips to “hell” on a mental
unit is less fully human…than who?

I gotta tell you. John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila
are going to have to go a far distance in the
“suffering sweepstakes” to out-do an individual who
suffers *lifelong *chronic depression.

Their experiences were not clinically generated and
they could claim “victory” in Christ.
The poor soul who has not the strength or energy
to write down their own spiritual journey…due to a
variety of mental disorders…may eclipse both
saints in the eyes of the Father.

Getting it together enough to take a shower in
times of severe depression may even be more
meritorious than all the chosen penances of
those in the cloister.

Both of these saints chose to seek God in the
interior life. The mentally ill are chosen. To me,
there is a world of difference.

reen12
 
Totally the reverse of mental illness, in fact. The individual is becoming more fully human not less so. quote from padraig

Uhhh…huh? A person suffering from mental illness is* not*
becoming more fully human?
What, pray tell, is more human than the experience of
suffering…physical or mental?
An individual suffering round trips to “hell” on a mental
unit is less fully human…than who?

I gotta tell you. John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila
are going to have to go a far distance in the
“suffering sweepstakes” to out-do an individual who
suffers *lifelong *chronic depression.

Their experiences were not clinically generated and
they could claim “victory” in Christ.
The poor soul who has not the strength or energy
to write down their own spiritual journey…due to a
variety of mental disorders…may eclipse both
saints in the eyes of the Father.

Getting it together enough to take a shower in
times of severe depression may even be more
meritorious than all the chosen penances of
those in the cloister.

Both of these saints chose to seek God in the
interior life. The mentally ill are chosen. To me,
there is a world of difference.

reen12
 
Onya Reen 12 (onya is an Aussie term meaning ‘good upon you’ or good on ya)!

Most classical writings in fact most contemporary writings even are written for monastics or religious who have been called to live a life dedicated to contemplative prayer and the spiritual road to it. Contemplative communities exist partly to follow the road, and the difficult road, to Union. These vocations live in ideal conditions for this process to take place. They also live in conditions, at least in the ideal sense, where related phenomena are insighted, understood and accepted. We called to other vocations do not live in such ideal conditions. Contemporary ‘mystical’ writers anyway like Thomas Merton state that few perhaps even within contemplative vocations are actually called to that road known as the ‘mystical’ road I’ll call it precisely because the purification asked is so very difficult, painful and somewhat ‘worrying’ I’ll call it. Hence their writings (and Thomas Merton states this) are for those within contemplative vocations and the ‘ideal conditons’ for the process to be entered into; however, the call to Union is addressed to all regardless and the mystical road is a road not the only road. The road cannot be chosen since the purification process is in God’s Hands with whom He will - the ideal conditions for it however are in a monastic monastery. Merton writes too that even in a monastery few are actually real contemplatives and to insight his meaning one would need to have read at least some of his writings. The presupposition is that a person called to the mystical road usually receives a contemplative vocation - the operative word is ‘usually’ this does not mean always. Simply because outside monastic conditions the passive purification becomes somewhat more difficult.
To state that a person who suffers mental illness cannot experience The Dark Night is to have a completely erroneous concept of what exactually mental illness means - the arena it covers. Definitely the person is not disintegrating as a human being - undergoing intense human suffering yes, but the personality is not disintegrating. No matter how intense the mental suffering is - and I’ve been to that place Reen 12 mentions of not even being able to get out of bed and shower one is so depressed, does not mean that the person is not still and perhaps in Faith (not sense) in total darkness appealling to God for help but not receiving it according to sense perception. Such a person may love and serve God not from any feeling at all but because God is God and love is an act of the mind, the will. The person in such a depressed conditon may even be experiencing a feeling God does not care, or even that God and Heaven do not exist . . .Faith in total darkness . . . but still blindly clinging to God desiring to love and serve God.
There are two factors in such a situation - mental suffering in a state of depression and also spiritual difficulties - and hence the load is double. As a human being we are spiritual, emotional, mental and physical beings. Mental Illness is precisely what it states, the person is suffering mentally and usually emotionally as well and in the incidence I have mentioned also spiritually.
There can be no spiritual without the human and no human without the spiritual . I would hold however, that if a person is told he/she is in The Dark Night and experiences any form of consolation from that may well be in the e arly stages of The Dark Night as a mystical theology term according to the definition I gave in the post above . . . however such a person experiencing consolation is not, not in the deepest regions of The Dark Night. I think perhaps many may experience the initial stages of it either for a long period or intermittantly (it is not necessarily a continuing state that has a clear start and end - usually breaks are experienced) and as St. Teresa writes “there is always something of The Dark Night” . . . but in the deepest part of the night there is absoltuely no consolation in heaven or on earth - nowhere. In this deepest passive purification the person is being stripped of all human satisfaction in loving and serving God - and there is an absolutely ‘blind groping’ as the dictionary definition states. I’m not thus saying I have experienced it but I have spent a fair bit of time in these recent days doing some reading.
I think The Dark Night as the mystical terminology it is is far more common than we realize and does incorporate the night of sense and many do experience this on and off in its early stages, but few are called to its deepest passive purification. This deepest purification is sometimes called The Dark Night of The Soul or The Dark Night of Faith. As I see it if one is undergoing this Dark Night of Faith, no way would they be able to sit and contribute to this forum, thread.
Continued
 
Those who have stated they have some form of mental illness in this thread, I hope will have changed at least one persons mind about mental illness - then our coming out of the closet as it were is made worthwhile. Its the pebble in the pool effect - you toss a pebble into a still lake and the ripples from the tiny pepple ripple out in ever widening circles. We are not spiritual impoverished becase we suffer mental illness - in fact the experience may well enrich us spiritually as no other quite could. One of the things Father said to me amongst many things he left with me is “Go through your life Girl and merrily cast your seeds . . . and Girl, don’t you hang around to find out what happens” I rather like what Anthony de Mello says: “I danced, I leave”.
In my studies I am receiving awards for my writing subjects - this thread has given me an idea for a book. It will not be on mystical or spiritual theology - it will be a fictional novel. Nor will it be about mental illness . . . but I have felt that perhaps there was a book in me and I may just have found it.
 
I have already distionguished between organic and psycholgogical illness in a very long post, stating clearly that there is no reason why mental illness should be a bar to illness. apologising for any offense caused and having that apology accepted. I suggest you revisit this post Short of doing a tap dance on Broadway I do not know how I can clarify my position on this matter further…most especially Brabble since you previously said, ‘Padraig, you are most gracious and I had been thinking too from your signature message: mmmmmmmmmmm…I wonder if he is in monastic orders? . . . But you were gracious Patrick and no I wasn’t offended -’
Usually when an apology is offered and accepted the matter ends. Am I gonna be hearing about this still at the crack of doom?
 
Joy,
when the ‘great’ St Tereasa went to the toilet she farted. Maybe even sometimes when she wasn’t in the toilet, who knows? Put her up tooo high on that pedestal and people will need binoculars to see her…
 
Where John of The Cross and Teresa of Avila are concerned, we need to remember that they lived in the 16th century in monastic conditions and used the common language of spirituality of their day. This language today would be regarded as ‘flowery language’ perhaps. Thomas Merton is a contemporary and uses the language of our day and he has this to say about the deepest regions of The Dark Night which he determines as ‘dread’. His books is “Contemplative Prayer”.
"The dread and dereliction of the spiritual man then is a kind of hell but it is, in the words of Isaac of Stells (a twelfth century Cistercian) a “hell of mercy and not wrath”. To be in a hell of mercy is to fully experience one’s nothingness, but in a spirit of repentance and surrender to God with a desire to do his will, not in a spirit of diffuse hatred, disgust and rebellion even those these MAY BE FELT AT THESE TIMES on the superficial level of emotion. It is in this “hell of mercy” that in finally relaxing our grip on our EMPTY SELF we find ourselves lost AND LIBERATED IN THE INFINITE FULLNESS OF GOD’S LOVE. We escape from the cage of this cage of emptiness, despair, dread and sin into the infinite space of GRACE AND FREEDOM AND MERCY. But if there is any vestige of self that can be AWARE OF ITSELF as ‘having arrived’ and ‘having attained possession’, then it can be sure of the return of the old dread, the old night, the old nothingness, untill all self sufficiency and self-complancy are destroyed."
This passage covers the deepest perhaps part of the night and its positive results or outcome.
I think The Dark Night is far more common than we realize and tend to forget that St. Jof the Cross and St. Tof Avila were called to be great saints and given ‘peculiar’ (by that I mean exclusive to them) - as to some extent we all are - Graces to achieve what God intended them to achieve in their lives. Every single person has these pecualiar to themselves Graces and also call to be a particular person gifted to their own times.
The Book I quoted from: Page 102 “Contemplative Prayer” Thomas Merton.
 
Dear Padraig - hi there my friend!

Kimasabi? which I have heard means “Friends?”. . . seems it is I whom being offensive now Padraig and in truth. I’m sorry dear friend but mental illness is a very sensitive issue to me and I have become obsessive and compulsive in this thread! People with mental illness must literally struggle daily with stigma even when they go to the shops once it is known they have a mental illness . . .also there is within Catholicism (I specify this because it is my realm of experience) that those who suffer this illness are in some way spiritaully reproprate or dismantled - I’ll use that word. I know the complete opposite is so. I never meant my comments personally at you . . . but that notion that had been raised that people with mental illness are ‘less’. I simply wanted to try very hard to kill the notion as it were if it was afoot. I apologize Padraig!

Joy! I quote

Joy,
when the ‘great’ St Tereasa went to the toilet she farted. Maybe even sometimes when she wasn’t in the toilet, who knows? Put her up tooo high on that pedestal and people will need binoculars to see her…

and Jesus did too. Not only that on the long long walk from Galilee to Jerusalem he went to the toilet . . . I wonder what brand of toilet paper he carried? As for Teresa of Avila - what a down to earth person she was . . .and her humour was fetching! One day crossing a stream she fell off her donkey into the waters. Getting up she says to The Lord “Well! if this is the way you are going to treat your friends, then don’t complain if you have so few!”
As a child in a Catholic classroom I used to wonder if holineness was such a wonderful thing - why did all these pictures on the walls show unhappy people! . . .tho St. Therese of Lisiuex I loved - she was smiling, and at me! Lord, please spare me your long faced saints! - they give me a pain in the butt!
I think the best thing you can do for the Lord and for all if you are somewhere in the Dark Night is keep a smile on your dial for the comfort of all!
 
Hi Springbreeze - I hope you are still out there somewhere. If you are who I think you are - don’t you think it is absolutely delightful the way this forum is maintained in a spirit of love and charity . . . we may go off the rails with each other at times - faulted humans that we are, but we don’t deliberately attack each others characters and annihilate or attempt to . . . I think this whole forum is a delight to contribute to and hear from. It is decidely enlightening on many subjects and I am learning and it is an example and witness of Catholicism and Christianity at its most trying best and by trying I mean we keep trying, there is a conscious effort to maintain good relationships and to exchange ideas not insults. I was almost going to post to that other forum and tell them to get over here and find out what its all about . . . but then thought better of it! “don’t give the devil his opportunity” to upset things etc. etc. etc. I keep reading that other forum and I get the itch to butt in from time to time, but I said what was on my mind. I danced. I left. . . .I rather like that term!

Padraig, I especially apologize to you! I read somewhere “the wordy mystic is no mystic” so I said to The Lord “Ah well, boss, that kills that idea!”
 
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brabble:
Hi Springbreeze - I hope you are still out there somewhere. If you are who I think you are - don’t you think it is absolutely delightful the way this forum is maintained in a spirit of love and charity . . . we may go off the rails with each other at times - faulted humans that we are, but we don’t deliberately attack each others characters and annihilate or attempt to . . . I think this whole forum is a delight to contribute to and hear from. It is decidely enlightening on many subjects and I am learning and it is an example and witness of Catholicism and Christianity at its most trying best and by trying I mean we keep trying, there is a conscious effort to maintain good relationships and to exchange ideas not insults. I was almost going to post to that other forum and tell them to get over here and find out what its all about . . . but then thought better of it! “don’t give the devil his opportunity” to upset things etc. etc. etc. I keep reading that other forum and I get the itch to butt in from time to time, but I said what was on my mind. I danced. I left. . . .I rather like that term!

Padraig, I especially apologize to you! I read somewhere “the wordy mystic is no mystic” so I said to The Lord “Ah well, boss, that kills that idea!”
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Dearest Brabble

Hi there …no I don’t know you from anywhere else. I don’t visit any other forum than this except that I have opened a thread on the bbci forums because the good campaigners here for Terri Schiavo asked me to start a thread which I did.

But no problem about it. I don’t know you previously, but I am pleased now to know you on this forum.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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padraig:
Joy,
when the ‘great’ St Tereasa went to the toilet she farted. Maybe even sometimes when she wasn’t in the toilet, who knows? Put her up tooo high on that pedestal and people will need binoculars to see her…
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Dearest Padraig

Hello dear friend. You know I fart as well and so does all of humanity but not all those that fart are as spiritually gifted as St Teresa of Avila 🙂 .

I hear what you are saying about putting someone so far out of reach that people will not be able to draw any good from her. That’s a valid statement.

I don’t think this is what Joysong is doing. I truly trust Joysongs knowledge, she has taught me a great deal about the Carmel and the Carmelite saints as Joysong and I are both Carmelites, she is a secular Carmelite and I am an aspiring secular Carmelite.

As I go through my formation, what I read and am taught is perfectly in line with what Joysong has taught me ahead of this.

I would call St Teresa of Avila a great Saint, she is a doctor of the church and despite her sinning and farting aspired to great heights and God allowed her to attain them. Anyone who God gifts with great spiritual gifts is great for me…if she is good enough for spiritual union with God then she is more than good enough for me!😃

I too love St Teresa’s sense of humour, she’s got a cracking dry wit!

My good friend Joysong would not want to wilfully harm a soul, I would stake my life on it, just as your good self would not like to wilfully do anything either. Joysong is in awe of St Teresa’s wisdom as I am myself and that is no bad thing. I don’t think she means to make St Teresa appear anything other than human. Joysongs knowledge of Carmel and the Saints of Carmel is vast I am blessed to know Joysong and through her kindness be able to learn from her.

I think there is alot in St Teresa’s teachings that many souls can benefit from and to quote it has been helpful for me as it is sometimes hard reading and it helps to look at it in certain lights and questions, then her works come alive for me. You are much more experienced in her works and so for it to be quoted may seem a chore for you, but please do not forget the ones like me who are not so bright or well read in her works and need it spelling out to us word for word.

I am hoping seeing as you are so well accustomed to her works that I might in future tap your brains on her works and ask you questions to help me out just as I have with Joysong. I am sure it is beneficial to have two teachings styles at my disposal…I hope you don’t mind me asking you.

God Bless you dear friend and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
For any who may be interested in a respected contemporary writer on mysticism, Evelyn Underhill, if you go to the following website (her chapter specifically perhaps on The Dark Night Of The Soul) she goes into the spiritual and also psychological aspects of The Dark Night and quite comprehensively . . .ccel.org/u/underhill/mysticism/mysticism1.0-PART-2.html

The following is from St. John of The Cross:
“That which this anguished soul feels most deeply,” says St. John of the Cross, “is the conviction that God has abandoned it, of which it has no doubt; that He has cast it away into darkness as an abominable thing . . . the shadow of death and the pains and torments of hell are most acutely felt, and this comes from the sense of being abandoned by God, being chastised and cast out by His wrath and heavy displeasure. All this and even more the soul feels now, for a terrible apprehension has come upon it that thus it will be with it for ever. It has also the same sense of abandonment with respect to all creatures, and that it is an object of contempt to all, especially to its friends.”

Evelyn Underhill:
becomes prominent when we look further into the history of Madame Guyon’s experiences. Thanks to the unctuous and detailed manner in which she has analysed her spiritual griefs, this part of her autobiography is a psychological document of unique importance for the study of the “Dark Night” as it appears in a devout but somewhat self-occupied soul.
Code: 
 As her consciousness of God was gradually extinguished, a mental and moral chaos seems to have invaded Madame Guyon . My imagination was in a state of appalling confusion, and gave me no rest. I could not speak of Thee, oh my God, for I became utterly stupid; nor could I even grasp what was said when I heard Thee spoken of. . . . I found myself hard towards God, insensible to His mercies; I could not perceive any good thing that I had done in my whole life. The good appeared to me evil; and--that which is terrible--it seemed to me that this state must last for ever."[791]
As in other phases of the Mystic Way, so here, we must beware of any generalization which reduces the “Dark Night” to a uniform experience; a neatly defined state which appears under the same conditions, and attended by the same symptoms, in all the selves who have passed through its pains. It is a name for the painful and negative state which normally intervenes between the Illuminative and the Unitive Life–no more. Different types of contemplatives have interpreted it to themselves and to us in different ways; each type of illumination being in fact balanced by its own appropriate type of “dark.”
Code: 
 In some temperaments it is the emotional aspect
I’m finding Evelyn Underhill fascinating reading and have copied it into Word.
 
Evelyn Underhill again:
C. Often combined with the sense of sin and the “absence of God” is another negation, not the least distressing part of the sufferings of the self suddenly plunged into the Night. This is a complete emotional lassitude: the disappearance of all the old ardours, now replaced by a callousness, a boredom, which the self detests but cannot overcome. It is the dismal condition of spiritual ennui which ascetic writers know so well under the name of “aridity,” and which psychologists look upon as the result of emotional fatigue.[804] It seems incredible that the eager love of a Divine Companion, so long the focus of the self’s whole being should have vanished: that not only the transcendent vision should be withdrawn, but her very desire for, and interest in, that vision should grow cold. Yet the mystics are unanimous in declaring that this is a necessary stage in the growth of the spiritual consciousness.

Obviously, any person who should experience these states from what is quoted from St. John and E. Underhill will have mental, emotional and also physical reactions to such sufferings. The night obviously involves the whole person spiritually, mentally emotionally and physically. Any other assertion I would think anyway would be suspect. But I also tend to think that experiencing such trials and sufferings would not preclude a person from continuing to function less perhaps than his/her normal functioning and in great suffering and depression - unless of course some sort of illness also occurs during the night. (although depression is classed as mental illness).
On my part I am somewhat marvelling that I am actually reading these writings and not becoming depressed and low. But then who knows what is around the next corner? “Todays troubles are enough for today”
 
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Journeyman:
Thank you all for your responses. Indeed, I am not going through the Dark Night. My struggle right now is moving away from the material world and moving closer to God and the spiritual world. The old things that mattered, matter less now. But it is not an easy journey, as all around me, others focus on the worldly.
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that experience, described well and often and accurately in traditional Catholic spiritual writers, especially John of the Cross, is the Dark Night of the Senses. It follows initial conversion and is essentially just what you describe.

websites like the one you quote are absolutely useless as spiritual guidance for Christians (or anyone else) Joy and John are absolutely right in what they tell you. We have spiritual masters in the Church, to go outside for new age gurus who jumble orthodox mysticism with a hodgepodge of concepts from non-Christian sources is futile, dishonest and dangerous. If you wish to understand the Dark Nights read the beautiful poem by John of the Cross, read St Teresa’s Interior Castle, and get a spiritual director. Your experience is also a sign that you are ready for a good director.
 
***Hi there …no I don’t know you from anywhere else. I don’t visit any other forum than this except that I have opened a thread on the bbci forums because the good campaigners here for Terri Schiavo asked me to start a thread which I did.

But no problem about it. I don’t know you previously, but I am pleased now to know you on this forum.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you***
Hi Teresa - I am no good on this identity thing for sure! Am I correct that you are Springbreeze, or am I still confused! Thank you for your lovely thoughts! I seem to know that name Springbreeze or perhaps similar from other forums to which I may belong . . . not to worry!
May God bless you too and love and peace to you also!
Barb

Dear Puzzleannie - I seem to have upset you. Sorry! A psychiatrist told me once had I been born in the 16th. century I would have been burned at the stake - perhaps he was right.
I am familiar with St. John and also St. Teresa and have their books here in my library. I am rather familiar with Carmelite writings. I have a director in a religious sister who spent many years as a novice mistress - she seems to think I am something of a free spirit. Actually I said to her at the time that adjectives/nouns about a person usually reflect more the person speaking than the person spoken about . . . free spirit to her and to someone who has no time for me - outspoken and undisciplined. I’m sort of at that stage where I can see clearly that names and name calling etc. etc. are only concepts in the minds of others and not necessarily realities. I view my own concepts in the same light - relative, conditional. We cannot control, thank goodness, other peoples thoughts nor their opinions of us. It was St. Teresa who said if someone says something nasty about you (in that vein) then think of what they could say if they really knew everything about you and give thanks they don’t! . . .because then they could say far far worse! now that’s not verbatum from St. Teresa - but if you are familiar with her works you will know it - reflecting St. Teresa’s earthy common sense and wit. My best pal is a Carmelite prioress - she is a pal, a time to time advisor and a mentor. I have great admiration for her as a Carmelite nun and also her thinking.
Thank you for your comments anyway - you have your opinions and I mine and I will defend with my life our right to have them. Also I rejoice that we are to some extent free to think, say and read what we choose . . . the cause of truth is advanced in many different ways and the path I am on today is not necessarily the path I will be on tomorrow . . .perhaps tomorrow I shall be more enlightened and I sure hope that I am. As I understand it there is absolutely no obligation re writings of saints although I would hold that St. Teresa and St. John are masters in their field.
Peace to you Puzzleannie and may The Lord richly bless you in all things -
Barb
 
Gee Puzzleannie, I think I’ve stuck my foot in things again. I’m not too sure your comments WERE directed about me! . . . oh dear I do apologize . . . and trust me! free spirit/undisciplined and outspoken . . . whatever! My cheeks are burning . . .and that comes from I think spiritual pride! Thank goodness he came for sinners. I live in a poor area and I told a local dear oh me non catholic pastor who shifted in around here fired with zeal. We’re sinners here, and we’re the real thing, not wishy washy imitations. Apologies again! I guess its a case of if the cap fits - then wear the jolly thing . . .I’m wearing it and will try very hard to read posts more carefully - as I said, the cause of truth is advanced in many ways and often by putting your foot firmly in it to teach a lesson the best way . . . mistakes and errors and dare I say it, stupidity!

Sorry - Barb
 
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padraig:
Isn’t St Teresa just the most wonderful saint God ever raised up?🙂 I utterly fell in love with her as a non-Catholic teenager; her personality and her passion for God; devoured the Complete Works (without much understanding, to be sure), and knew I had to be a Catholic to have even the smallest taste of the richness of spirituality I could glean from what I read.
38 years down the track, I thank God with all my heart for where she led me …
Yes, I’m glad someone (John Russell originally, I think) distinguished between the 2 dark nights. St John says the first one “is the lot of many”. Hmmmm - I wonder if that is still as true today as it seems to have been in his day? He describes this first night well in both the early part of the book “The Dark Night of the Soul” from the passive point of view (what God does to us) and in the"Ascent of Mt Carmel" from the active point of view (what WE have to do to dispose ourselves for it)

I have been in the first dark night for many years, but whether I’ll ever get any further depends, I suppose, not only on the grace and gift of God, but on my generosity, or lack of. I believe further progress must require a far greater self-giving and surrender to God’s will than I have reached.
Part of me truly wants the “all or nothing” gift of self, part of me is still too attached to worldly interests, comforts, etc.:o
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