Have You Experienced the "Dark Night of the Soul"?

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Hi,
Mental illness does not exclude one from the DN. And thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I am no stranger to ilness myself, so I understand where your coming from. Mental ilness is the greatest form of suffering one can go through. Often there is no cure. And because people can’t see any plaster they are sometimes insensitive. I have absolutely no doubt people with a mental illness have the highest places amongst the elect in Heaven - generally speaking. God bless you and Happy Easter.

I don’t know how to do that special quote box yet.

Dear John Russel Jr. - Thank you for the post and the insight . . . it gets aweful dark being a crazy with all sane people around. So I think I really should butt out! Between us psychaitric patients we say that the only way to insight the horror of mental illness is to have one - also that at least we know we are ill and get treatment . . . its all these others that think they are sane and don’t get treatment that keep on worrying us. Psychiatric patients often have excellent senses of the funny and ridiculous . . . especially about ourselves. We wanted to call our rehab. club “The Acorn Club” (the nuts club):whacky: but the powers that be who asked us the vote on a name and we chose The Acorn Club wouldn’t let us!!! Ah well so much for democracy with the mentally ill as the free.

Well I sure am a sinner and no doubt or correspondence on that score and sure do just keep on trying so I hope I will get to Heaven one day and be a saint . . . in truth, not my definition of!

Of course a mentally ill person can experience The Dark Night!
God loves us every bit as much as these integrated personalities!!!
Time Magazine around 1974 Article Headed “In an Insane World The Sane Would Be Considered Insane” and that makes sense to this insane person anyway and not ashamed of it. Also in the body of the article “psychiatry is the invention of society to keep its more creative members in line” . . . but I guess that depends on what one defines creativity as? I think that it was Thomas Merton in “Contemplation in a World of Action” who wrote that final integration can have amusing results . . . and if final integration means a sense of humour then I’m all for it! Actually my director (pre and post my illness) who died not all that long after I became ill was a moral theologian trained in Rome - the wisest, holiest, person I have ever known . . . also the funniest who would not tolerate fools with any gladness - hence I was often the brunt of his very grumpy but insanely funny religious humour.
Anyway there is no growth without change/conflict of some type. Its healthy in perspective.
“Let us serve The Lord with gladness, all the earth”
Joyous Easter to one and all!
 
There is no reason why someone with a mental illness, no matter how severe cannot become a saint. I hope I did not suggest otherwise! A good current example is St Therese’s father whose cause for canonisation (along with that of his wife) is well advanced.No more reason than if someone had a physical ailment.

However I repeat my assertion that The Dark Night of the Soul is must certainly NOT pathological in either effect or result. It is health giving, rather than health taking. It is important to emphasise this otherwise it may be misdiagnosed. An analogy can be made in some sense in that both can be depressive but thats as far as it goes. Great harm has benn done in the past by confusing the two so the distinction IS important. It is one thing to say ‘I feel like I’m going through the Dark Night of the Soul’ and on the other hand to say, ‘I am going through the Dark Night of the Soul’. The Dark Night is Spiritual; mental illness is just that a mental illness and pathological.Mental illness like all suffering may draw us closer to Christ as we share his Cross and in this way be a profound spiritual event. We must put considerable clear blue water between the two.
Now it is impotant here to distinguish here between mental illness that is organic(such as bipolar disorder) and that which is psychological (such as the psychic trauma caused by being sexually molested as a child). I might expect no healing of the organic pathology as the individual went forward in the paths of prayer. I would expect great healing in the psychological trauma.
In mystical studies we are, by definition exploring the Mystery of Christ…as to how the individual is transformed by the workings of the Holy Spirit into the image of the Christ.
By definition this is just that, a mystery, I suppose we could spend our eternities considering this and come away baffled. Nevertheless in the soul’s growth in being Transformed into this image there are certain phenomenolgical stages which in the ordinary course of the soul’s growth we would expect to see presenting.
Of course if a person dies a martyr for the faith they have, by definition, practised heroic virtue and are raised to the altars. But the one does not exclude the other. Holy Mother Church which raises the martyrs’ to the altars also encourages the study of Mystical Theology at its great Universities (including the study of The Dark Night of the Soul.
I hope I have cleared up any misconceptions in this regard you may have had.
 
…whatever…you are obviously a learned person and possibly in Holy Orders to boot I think - but then I am often wrong.
 
No just an ordinary guy like yourself. I apologise for offending you. As was suggested I was probably very insensitive in the way I put things, sadly I often am!
 
Dear Brabble

I think it would be easy for a person suffering the Dark Night of the Soul to think they had a depression come upon them and seek a doctor to help them, but no doctor can help them because no drug or therapy will help this depression of spirit.

You are very right friend, that people who suffer with mental illness can also suffer the Dark Night of the Soul. But then they would have two depressions one of spirit and one of mind. I often think people suffering with psychiatric illness suffer a dark night of the mind, which the body in turn also suffers. I am disabled and attend a pain clinic, there are many people who are treated for depression at the pain clinic because the body suffering has affected the mind, thank God I am not depressed, to suffer in both ways must be awful. When the body suffers so does the mind and vice versa.

It is a different ‘night’ that someone suffers with depression but still it is darkness brought on by a whole list of possible reasons, God does not draw a person to suffer a depressive illness of the mind as He does with the Dark Night of the Soul, God allows a depressive illness of the mind to happen to a person as no illness is made by God; God is good. He alows it to happen for a reason that ultimately will benefit the person, seems an odd statement but I believe that God allows awful things to happen so that He can create an even greater good from it.

A person suffering from the Dark Night of the Soul is not unwell or in need of a doctor. I am not sayng I am in the Dark Night of the Soul, it is impossible for me to discern, I cannot discern much at all nor understand much at all presently, so I go with the flow so to speak, but I took myself off to the doctor and talked to my GP when what I thought was odd stuff going on in myself, in my spirit and she sent me away saying that I am not depressed after many questions about my daily life and how I feel about life. She said that in her experience spiritual things like this happen and she could not explain them , but she knows they do happen. I left relieved I wasn’t depressed, but soon after was more troubled because I did not understand what is happening to me, so I still feel crazy!

You do not have to defend yourself to me, though I completely understand why you are compelled to defend psychiatric illness as people are so very ignorant of it and form all kinds of false opinion and as a result judge people suffering in this way.

I think we have much to learn from illness of the mind and the suffering it contains. I think it is far easier to suffer physically than it is to suffer mentally, purely because of how other people treat people suffering in the mind. People tend to have alot of compassion for those suffering physically, though I am not so sure anymore after the Terri Schiavo case, than they do for people who suffer mentally. You can’t see it, you can’t dress it with a bandage and more often than not you can’t explain it… it just is.

I admire your openess and honesty and am truly proud to know you on this forum. You are a blessing and may God bless you for standing firm in defence of His children who suffer with mental illness.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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padraig:
No just an ordinary guy like yourself. I apologise for offending you. As was suggested I was probably very insensitive in the way I put things, sadly I often am!
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Dearest Padraig

You are no ordinary guy, you are a guy gifted with many blessings from God whom I have learnt much from reading your posts.

I know from the way you write you would rather die than hurt another person.

It’s just crossed wires here, that’s all.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Tereasa,
I think the really important thing for you is to have a really good Sprtitual Director at this time in whom you have implicit confidence and who has real experience in this matter.
This may not be easy, such a person is as rare as diamond dust…
 
P.s Thanks for your kind words Tereasa, but I really think I could have put things a little better there,
I am praying for you, you have my deep sympathy in your cross…but remember every winter has a spring, every night a morning…‘Just remenber in the winter far beneath the bitter snow, lies a seed that with the sun’s love, in the spring, becomes a Rose!’.
 
Hi to Springbreeze and also Padraig . . . and Hi to all - my mouse is driving me nutty, nuttier - but not as yet my best!

mmmm Springbreeze, I thought I may have known you from somewhere else (and apologies if I have you identified incorrectly too!). . . . don’t blow my cover willya if you are who I think u maybe because some of those contributors on that other forum were quite formidable - they were tuff! (Joke!)😃 . . . I don’t want them blowing into this site and getting even with me (another joke!):crying: …and I thought Brabble was me cover!😉 …and yes Springbreeze mental illness can affect the body and one feels physical pain . . .I have felt anxiety so very intense I felt my chest was on fire and a terrible pain in the chest and it was intensely physical pain. AT the time I didn’t know that it was extreme anxiety. I didn’t know how to say what was wrong with me . . .except it was a very bad pain ‘just here’ (chest).
One thing you learn with mental illness - if you are going to take yourself and all, your illness, the world, reality etc. with absolute seriousness at all times - then yer really will go mad and be more of a pain in the butt to those around you than they keep telling you you are already.
All this is not a statement that I am light hearted and jolly whatever all the time . . .pas de toute! or is it pas de tout (meaning not at all) Nor any indication that I do not take very seriously indeed and to heart the trials and tribulations of others and the world etc.

Padraig, you are most gracious and I had been thinking too from your signature message: mmmmmmmmmmm…I wonder if he is in monastic orders? . . . But you were gracious Patrick and no I wasn’t offended - just riled somewhat. Also aware of my own poverty and possible misunderstanding of situations etc.

I’ve been reading quite a bit from here and there on this DN thing. Then discovered in my Jesuit pocket dictionary (gee they sure must have big pockets) a defintion of the DN that is concise and informative. As to the night of sense - I understand this as within the term The Dark Night (early stages) but these things do not run necessarily on a starts here then stops here and then such and such will start here. It is not that simple or at least as necessity. There is a term known as The Dark Night of Faith which is the DN at its most purifying intesity as I understand it. The whole DN is in essence the purification of Faith. The dark night of sense is the purification from feelings in spirituality . . . in that one looses largely good feelings found in all spiritual matters. Loosing those feelings, one needs be without good feelings connected to Faith/spiritaulity/etc. ( consolations )and thus learns to walk faithfully independant of feeling good about being faithful . . .as it were! - I’m not sure where I read it, St. F. de Sales or The Cloud of Unkowning: seek the God of consolations not the consolations of God . . . which summarizes I think the dn of sense really well.
What has sort of got to me is I have been able to read a fair bit on the DN and I’m not yet depressed and feeling low, but know when to stop. Or as BOb Dylan put it in “Time Out Of Mind” - it aint dark yet, but its gettin there.
This mouse will drive me to drink!
But I will try to put in the Hardon dictionary entry tomorrow - trouble is I can’t cut and print . . . I have to type it from the book and the book is quite awkward to keep open on any one page without two hands!
I still have that lingering feeling I should butt out but the ideal is a balance between intellect and fealings . . . and perhaps a constantly elusive balance that just ducks in now and then!!!🤓
I think it truly wonderful that so many have come out and said that they suffer with or did or have . . .some form of mental illness. And depression IS a mental illness. Nor is there any such thing as a nervous breakdown - rather a mental illness of a temporary nature. The more we can show we are quite normal intelligent and creative human beings and fully human beings - the more we can attack stigma and break it down . . . if we can do this even only in part it may give more opportunity for those who struggle more with MI than perhaps we do to show these sane people just what we crazies can be made of and reveal the gifts God has given to us and given for the good of the whole.
 
If we return to the original post that began this thread, the question asked was, “Has anyone here experienced the Dark Night of the Soul?” Somewhere along the way we lost track of the topic, to include the possibility that ordinary persons or those with mental impairments may also be granted the experience by God. I don’t dispute that, since our saints have not written to say whom God may choose to be gifted with this.

What I do know is that both St. Teresa and John of the Cross were writing to those called to a contemplative vocation by God, the goal of which is mystical union and spiritual marriage. To believe that a martyr such as Maria Goretti, or a person called to an active vocation, might be brought into the dark night is to misunderstand the contemplative vocation. This call, as St. Therese stated, is to be the heart in the Body of Christ, wherein the person enriches the entire Church through their union with God. She is called the Patroness of Missions because her contemplative prayer reaches beyond the cloister to support those who are actively engaged in works for God. One plants, another waters, but it is God Himself who gives the growth.

Each vocation is worthy of esteem, because it is God who gives the grace, and if a person is faithful to it, will become a saint. So I don’t believe it is profitable to examine which persons are able or not able to participate in the Dark Night. Generally, I would say it is for those whose whole life is a call to prayer, and it is in their spirits that the purification takes place for the benefit of the entire mystical body of Christ. I shared what I believe is a good description of this in post #11, which may have been missed by some following this thread.

Part of the purification consists of bringing into divine order all the passions of joy, hope, grief, and fear, which is explained in the Ascent. For this reason, the phenomena mentioned in the original post are not in accord with what the soul in the second night experiences. I’m thinking about the mention of frequent bouts of crying and weeping, loss of control, anger, frustration and lack of patience, despair, lack of energy, and the like, as symptomatic of the state.

Remember that St. John says this is a night for “proficients” who have already passed through the first terrible night of sense, and undergone a number of years of joy and liberty of spirit prior to experiencing the second night of the spirit. As proficients, whose four passions are now brought into divine order through purification, they would not be subject to the inordinate symptoms described in the last paragraph. These passions are greatly subjected to God, and not to self, which usually finds release in one or more of these disorders.

It seems cruel to me to suggest to anyone experiencing a trial or series of misfortunes, to pass it off as the Dark Night experienced by contemplatives. In fact, it is an error of judgment needing proper education.

There is much to say, for these two saints have written a great deal about it. However, I don’t know whether it serves a worthy purpose to try and expound it here, for there are so few of us who are called to undergo it. As the psalmist once wrote, “I busy not myself with things too sublime for me - nay rather, I have stilled and quieted my soul like a weaned child on its mothers lap.”
 
Dearest friend

I am sorry I did not mean to imply I am in the Dark Night of the Soul. I don’t know where I am.

I apologise

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Dear Teresa,
Dearest friend,

I am sorry I did not mean to imply I am in the Dark Night of the Soul. I don’t know where I am.
I apologise
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I’m not sure who you were addressing, but I believe most of us understood you correctly from this mention in your previous post:
A person suffering from the Dark Night of the Soul is not unwell or in need of a doctor. I am not sayng I am in the Dark Night of the Soul, it is impossible for me to discern, I cannot discern much at all nor understand much at all presently, so I go with the flow so to speak …
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Be assured that whatever it is you are experiencing, it is truly born of a heart filled with love for God, and is bereft of His sacred presence. We read in the Song of Songs about the bride, who wrote, “On my bed at night I sought him whom my heart loves—I sought him but I did not find him. I will rise then and go about the city; in the streets and crossings I will seek him whom my heart loves. I sought him but I did not find him. The watchmen came upon me, as they made their rounds of the city: Have you seen him whom my heart loves?”

Do you see the passion and centered focus of the heart that loves God? This is typical of both nights, one being far more severe than the other. All of its concern is, “Where is He whom my heart loves?”

As long as you are in this mode of hunger for God, you will grow ever more in grace and become more and more attuned to His Spirit of love and His will. Be at peace, for all is well, no matter where you are!
 
Dear Brabble,
If you read St. Teresa of Avila’s account of the Sixth Mansion . . . and I just located a copy and had a quick read to ensure I was correct, you will find that the interior state does become very obvious to those around the person and he/she finds it impossible to hide his/her state and distress (but not necessarily as a criteria of The Dark Night I would think).
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Ah, what can I say to help you understand our great Saint better? Beginning in Chapter 6:1, we read, “Let us now, with the help of the Holy Spirit, come to speak of the sixth Mansions, in which the soul has been wounded with love for the Spouse …”

It is so important to realize that these wounds of love, spoken about by both Carmelite Doctors, are intense spiritual wounds, bordering on the supernatural. We find her speaking later in 6:1 that the person suffers interior “oppression” — not “depression.” A big difference, indeed, for she says it is so keenly felt and so intolerable that she does not know to what it can be compared.

“The thing is inexpressible, for this distress and oppressin are spiritual troubles and cannot be given a name. The best medicine is to occupy oneself with external affairs and works of charity and hope in God’s mercy.” Concluding in 6:1, “This severe distress comes just before the soul’s entrance into the 7th Mansion.”

Elsewhere in 6:1, she states, "How sad it is to see a soul thus foresaken, and how little can it gain from any earthly consolation --skip-- Comfort must come to them from above, for earthly things are of no value to them any more.

“If she prays, she might as well not be doing so at all — even when her prayer is vocal, can she understand what she is saying, while mental prayer at such a time is certainly impossible — her faculties are not capable of it.”

Hidden within her writings are echoes of everything St. John taught describing the 3 signs that accompany those being readied for dark contemplation. In brief, inability to practice mental prayer, no consolation from anything of earth, and wounded with love and continual attentiveness toward her Divine Spouse."

In 6:1 and 6:2, we find that she confirms everything written by St. John. Of course, when the supernatural distress is present, others will recognize this when it is manifested in its deepest form. St. Teresa wrote that when this began, she became much afraid, for it was severe enough to possibly cause her death. It is so different to picture this in our language, unless we have had a similar experience, and her meaning is often distorted by those who apply their own human understanding to something that is entirely supernatural and spiritual.

May God give you true wisdom and understanding and bring you to deep abiding faith.
 
I’ve been reading St Tereasa since I was sixteen years old now. Thats about 34 years. She’s my favourite Spiritual writer. Of all her books The Spiritual Mansions is my favourite. I have read and reread that book so many times I should be able to recite it in my sleep.
It was thanks to this book that I did my degree in Psychology and postgraduate studies in counselling.
I am profoundly unhappy, though with folks who take an elevated and overly pious attitude to her writings and interpretation of the subject matter.
She is a woman. Thouroughly human and amusing. Just like you and me. Stick her up on a pedestal too much and you loose her.I am uncomfortable hearing her writings quoted as though they were scripture…
For there is no life in this constant quotation. The Spirit brings life, the dead letter, death. Tereasa to me is alive, she comes alive in her spirit. She above all this wonderfully alive human being would have hated this GREAT SAINT TEREASA BUISNESS. Essentially to be alive and to pray is to walk the terryfying stroll of existence…which by definition is one of uncertainty…not dry constant quotations…
 
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padraig:
I’ve been reading St Tereasa since I was sixteen years old now. Thats about 34 years. She’s my favourite Spiritual writer. Of all her books The Spiritual Mansions is my favourite. I have read and reread that book so many times I should be able to recite it in my sleep.
It was thanks to this book that I did my degree in Psychology and postgraduate studies in counselling.
I am profoundly unhappy, though with folks who take an elevated and overly pious attitude to her writings and interpretation of the subject matter.
She is a woman. Thouroughly human and amusing. Just like you and me. Stick her up on a pedestal too much and you loose her.I am uncomfortable hearing her writings quoted as though they were scripture…
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I agree.
 
Thank you White Dove!
You say more in two words than others…myself included say in very many.
I dislike this pious attitude…oh you couldn’t really have gone through the Dark Night unles you’re a saint attitude. This is not Tereasa…certainly not the Tereasa I know…
God is not a million miles away…neither is that wonderful woman… neither those really good folks out there that PRAY and I mean PRAY…
 
Also this ‘be assured’ vocabulary makes me uncomfortable…are we humans or angels? Pious, pious pious…
 
Padraig,

I suppose I’m slow, for it took a good while to figure out that your lack of charity was directed to me. It finally registered when I observed your words, “be assured.”

Can one observe by your words that you are a follower of St. Teresa? The Saint who wrote in the 5th Mansion that when she sees a “fault” in another, she is as sorry about it as though it were her own? Is this public censure of me, your prayerful correction of a sister in Christ?

I don’t know what more to say, other than I feel as sorry about your fault as though it were my own.
 
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Joysong:
Padraig,

I suppose I’m slow, for it took a good while to figure out that your lack of charity was directed to me. It finally registered when I observed your words, “be assured.”

Can one observe by your words that you are a follower of St. Teresa? The Saint who wrote in the 5th Mansion that when she sees a “fault” in another, she is as sorry about it as though it were her own? Is this public censure of me, your prayerful correction of a sister in Christ?

I don’t know what more to say, other than I feel as sorry about your fault as though it were my own.
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Was padraig talking about you, Joy? If I had realized that, I would have definately have withheld my judgement, since your deep spirituality is so highly evident from your insightful posts. Your obvious in depth of knowledge and direct experience is undeniable. God bless you! 🙂 I need to follow these threads a little more closely…
 
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Joysong:
If we return to the original post that began this thread, the question asked was, “Has anyone here experienced the Dark Night of the Soul?” Somewhere along the way we lost track of the topic, to include the possibility that ordinary persons or those with mental impairments may also be granted the experience by God. I don’t dispute that, since our saints have not written to say whom God may choose to be gifted with this.

What I do know is that both St. Teresa and John of the Cross were writing to those called to a contemplative vocation by God, the goal of which is mystical union and spiritual marriage. To believe that a martyr such as Maria Goretti, or a person called to an active vocation, might be brought into the dark night is to misunderstand the contemplative vocation. This call, as St. Therese stated, is to be the heart in the Body of Christ, wherein the person enriches the entire Church through their union with God. She is called the Patroness of Missions because her contemplative prayer reaches beyond the cloister to support those who are actively engaged in works for God. One plants, another waters, but it is God Himself who gives the growth.

Each vocation is worthy of esteem, because it is God who gives the grace, and if a person is faithful to it, will become a saint. So I don’t believe it is profitable to examine which persons are able or not able to participate in the Dark Night. Generally, I would say it is for those whose whole life is a call to prayer, and it is in their spirits that the purification takes place for the benefit of the entire mystical body of Christ. I shared what I believe is a good description of this in post #11, which may have been missed by some following this thread.

Part of the purification consists of bringing into divine order all the passions of joy, hope, grief, and fear, which is explained in the Ascent. For this reason, the phenomena mentioned in the original post are not in accord with what the soul in the second night experiences. I’m thinking about the mention of frequent bouts of crying and weeping, loss of control, anger, frustration and lack of patience, despair, lack of energy, and the like, as symptomatic of the state.

Remember that St. John says this is a night for “proficients” who have already passed through the first terrible night of sense, and undergone a number of years of joy and liberty of spirit prior to experiencing the second night of the spirit. As proficients, whose four passions are now brought into divine order through purification, they would not be subject to the inordinate symptoms described in the last paragraph. These passions are greatly subjected to God, and not to self, which usually finds release in one or more of these disorders.

lap.”
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Hi there,
It is not my intention to be uncharitable. This thread has gone a bit awry. But I would like to state that all are called to be Saints. And that all laymen can become contemplatives in the middle of the world. A quote is below from St Josemaria Escriva on this.
There is no set path as to these 2 nights. And no set rules. The nights can have many and varied forms of trials in or attached to them. i heard a story of a Saint once who thought he had been through the night of sense. It was only at the twilight of his life that he realised it was the DN. No set rules.

It is under the “umbrella” of God’s mercy that christian existence should develop. Ever mindful of that, the Christian should strive to behave as a child of God. And what are the principal means to ensure that our vocation takes root? Today let me point out two of them, which are like living supports of christian conduct: interior life and doctrinal formation, the deep knowledge of our faith.

First of all, interior life. How few really understand this! If they hear about the interior life, they imagine some obscure temple. For more than a quarter of a century I have been saying that such isn’t the case. I talk about the interior life of ordinary Christians who habitually find themselves in the hubbub of the city, in the light of day, in the street, at work, with their families or simply relaxing; they are centred on Jesus all day long. And what is this except a life of continuous prayer? Isn’t it true that you have seen the need to become a soul of prayer, to reach an intimacy with God that leads to divinization? Such is the christian faith as always understood by souls of prayer — “A man becomes God,” writes Clement of Alexandria, “because he loves whatever God loves.”

More to come.
 
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