Have you read the Book of Mormon?

[LongJourney]

When I reflect on my career as a critic of Mormonism, I wonder if it is a form of insanity. Mormons, when confronted with the evidence that their book is a fraud, turn to arguing points of theology, rather than continue defending the cornerstone of their faith. We, in turn, follow them, getting involved in pointless arguments, resembling “how many angels can dance on the point of a pin?” When it comes to a religion that has characteristics of Gnosticism, argument on these points is useless, because they have their complex mysteries, while we have our own simple Mysteries, which they try to denigrate and define, ignoring their own.

http://www.mouseowners.com/forums/images/smilies/beatdeadhorse5.gif Is this insanity?

Returning to the BoM, I have just received news of another study which objectively supports the Spalding/Rigdon theory. A Bruce Schaalje, faithful Mormon, published on the internet a pca chart which he believed refuted S/R. Jockers et al. brushed this challenge off, and I also had no concern about it, believing that he chose the chart which most clearly did not support S/R, out of an almost infinite number of possible choices. Dale Broadhurst was concerned about Schaalje’s claims, and commissioned someone else to produce these charts. My initial reaction was confirmed. It now appears that a very large percentage of pca charts support S/R. We now have six confirmations of S/R. (Broadhurst, historical analysis, Delta, Shrunken Centroids, pca charts, textual similarities)

mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14729

What I now need is a progressive graphic ending up with a person beating a horse skeleton.

The BoM is a fraud. Many conclusions follow from that.

I ask all who read this to pray for LDS people, who are caught in the deceptions of their religion and social and economic network.

 

[LongJourney]

Not only that, but Bruce refused to label his data-points. They have now been labeled, and confirm S/R.

 

[JHow]

…Mormons, when confronted with the evidence that their book is a fraud, turn to arguing points of theology…

I have to say, the usual posters seem to have dropped this thread.

 

[LongJourney]

I have to say, the usual posters seem to have dropped this thread.

For obvious reasons. And I am playing a solitary game of bumper-car.

 

[Timothy17]

My best friend was Mormon and they and his family loved to hand out the BoM. I found it odd that though I was secular and had no religion, they never gave me the Bible - just the BoM.

I liked reading it because it was constantly jam-packed with wars, violence and death, which made it adventurous and exciting. I stopped reading it because I could not possibly believe that people living thousands of years ago in either northern South America, Central America or the area comprising the modern southern United States (or all of the above) could possibly be so fond of such veiled democratic ideals as the people in the BoM were often portrayed. It was loaded with instances of democratic idealism, voting, etc., and that aspect stank as brazen Americana, and even then I knew it could not possibly be historically accurate or realistic. The Israelites were never Democratic, because democracy developed in Greece long after the supposed exodus of some of Abraham’s seed left the Arabian peninsula and travelled miraculously by boat to South America or Central America where they founded a kingdom “in the shape of an hourglass,” which I don’t think was actually in the BoM but some commentary apparently revealed in a vision or something. Now if that quote, from my memory, is in the BoM, that would be a total hoot - because they never had glass during that period, and in that area, either.

Pax,
Tim

 

[LongJourney]

I don’t remember any reference to something in the shape of an hourglass. However, the Jaredite boats/submarines had glass windows. This supposedly happened shortly after the fall of the Tower of Babel.

Here are those pca charts, now labeled. Shrunk to make the results clearer.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

sidneyrigdon.com/criddle/BS/Whole2f.gif

The shrinking clarifies the picture when done on the other axis, too. Basically, the Spalding content is different from the content of JS and Co.

 

[Vixit]

I’ve read a few chapters here and there…including a “study” when I visited my friends LDS church.

Seems like the book tries to justify itself.

I have never read a book that tries so hard to convince the reader that what is in it is true. The whole thing, to me, seemed specifically tailored for that purpose. Also, it was just really crazy funny. And kind of exciting, with the Indian (Native American) battles and stuff. Too bad we cannot find all those awesome cities the Natives lived in…

 

[Javl]

I have never read a book that tries so hard to convince the reader that what is in it is true. The whole thing, to me, seemed specifically tailored for that purpose. Also, it was just really crazy funny. And kind of exciting, with the Indian (Native American) battles and stuff. Too bad we cannot find all those awesome cities the Natives lived in…

I’ll bet that if the Book of Mormon were presented as a SciFi novel to the public it would be on the NY Times Best Seller list. It would most likely lead other fiction novels and probably be in first place.

What I will never be able to figure out is how intelligent people, that the Mormons seem to be, can end up actualy believing and accepting such fiction as being the word of God.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[LongJourney]

At the end of my book, I included a rewriting of the BoM as Sol would have written it today. Fantasy fiction, I call it.

 

[Javl]

I notice that as soon as a post is made that refutes ( with ubdisputable proof ) any Mormon claim, the thread suddenly goes dead and they disappear. This occurs on all the threads concerning Mormonism. Gee… I wonder why.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[LongJourney]

Thanks for the bump. I was just waiting to see if someone else was interested in keeping it alive.

 

[Javl]

Thanks for the bump. I was just waiting to see if someone else was interested in keeping it alive.

You’re welcome, but I think it’ll just be us from now on. Shalom haMeshiach.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ParkerD]

I’ll bet that if the Book of Mormon were presented as a SciFi novel to the public it would be on the NY Times Best Seller list. It would most likely lead other fiction novels and probably be in first place.

What I will never be able to figure out is how intelligent people, that the Mormons seem to be, can end up actually believing and accepting such fiction as being the word of God.

JAVL,
I realize you were just asking a rhetorical question, with no plan to have a response, but here is one anyway (since you added a response looking for a response after all).

There are thousands of truths given to anyone in the world who is willing to read, in the Book of Mormon. As Zerinus pointed out on another thread, truth is truth regardless of where it comes from.

Shakespeare’s plays (or the person who wrote them) provide truths about human nature and the human condition. Many other authors provide truths that show insights into these things. People write about those truths, and admire those authors.

Yet, when it comes to the Book of Mormon, anyone can read it and find thousands of truths about the human condition and about our relationship to God and to Christ, and yet dismiss it all as just a work of fiction and not get one grain of truth out of it. Others actually do get truths out of it as they read, though they are non-LDS.

So, it is a case where the “beauty is in the eyes of the beholder” or in other words, those who find truths are those looking for truths and those who keep themselves from finding truths in life by scorning anything outside of their own personal experience, are merely keeping themselves from additional insights they might otherwise learn.

However, for me the Book of Mormon is not only filled with thousands of truths, but it is first-and-foremost not a work of fiction–only God could inspire such a work as that with so many thousands of jewels of truth, plus authenticity thrown in for good measure.

Now what LJ does, for example, both academically and in the lack of applied knowledge demonstrated so often (and I have explained that to LJ time and again), is a work of fiction and the application of fictional science. A seeker after truth can distinguish the difference after a sincere and thoughtful exercise of reading, thinking, reading some more, and thinking some more.

 

[Javl]

JAVL,
I realize you were just asking a rhetorical question, with no plan to have a response, but here is one anyway (since you added a response looking for a response after all).

There are thousands of truths given to anyone in the world who is willing to read, in the Book of Mormon. As Zerinus pointed out on another thread, truth is truth regardless of where it comes from.

There is only one source of truth and that is God. All so called “thousands of truths” have their origin with Him. Therefore you cannot say “truth is truth regardless of where it comes from”.

Shakespeare’s plays (or the person who wrote them) provide truths about human nature and the human condition. Many other authors provide truths that show insights into these things. People write about those truths, and admire those authors.

Unless these “truths” are in harmony with that as revealed and given by God they are not truths. We make them “truths” to satisfy our egos and to fit into our “plans”.

Yet, when it comes to the Book of Mormon, anyone can read it and find thousands of truths about the human condition and about our relationship to God and to Christ, and yet dismiss it all as just a work of fiction and not get one grain of truth out of it. Others actually do get truths out of it as they read, though they are non-LDS.

Yes, there are truths in the Book of Mormon. But these truths are all copied from the King James Version of the Bible ( errors and all ). The rest, what you call “truths”, are not truly in harmony with what God has revealed and given to us. These “truths” are from the imagination and machination of man. Therefore they cannot be considered true.

So, it is a case where the “beauty is in the eyes of the beholder” or in other words, those who find truths are those looking for truths and those who keep themselves from finding truths in life by scorning anything outside of their own personal experience, are merely keeping themselves from additional insights they might otherwise learn.

Yes, and unless they are in harmony and fit in with what God has revealed and given us, they can be scorned and ignored since they are not truths.

However, for me the Book of Mormon is not only filled with thousands of truths, but it is first-and-foremost not a work of fiction–only God could inspire such a work as that with so many thousands of jewels of truth, plus authenticity thrown in for good measure.

For one who is totaly blind to the obvious, the Book of Morman would appear to be filled with thousands of truths. With the exception of those taken and copied from scripture, these “truths” are not at all in harmony with what has been revealed and given us by God.
These “jewels” that you claim that are in the Book of Mormon are nothing but paste. And as has been proven so many times, but ignored and rejected, there is nothing authentic that has been “thrown in for good measure”

Now what LJ does, for example, both academically and in the lack of applied knowledge demonstrated so often (and I have explained that to LJ time and again), is a work of fiction and the application of fictional science. A seeker after truth can distinguish the difference after a sincere and thoughtful exercise of reading, thinking, reading some more, and thinking some more.

I agree with you in your statement about a seeker of truth. But in the case of the Book of Mormon, as has been proven time and time again, it is a work of fiction with no basis in fact, and no matter how hard you or any LDS tries , it cannot be proven otherwise.

I’m sorry to be so blunt Parker, but the facts presented are so obvious that they cannot be denied.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ParkerD]

With the exception of those taken and copied from scripture, these “truths” are not at all in harmony with what has been revealed and given us by God.
These “jewels” that you claim that are in the Book of Mormon are nothing but paste. And as has been proven so many times, but ignored and rejected, there is nothing authentic that has been “thrown in for good measure”.

I’m sorry to be so blunt Parker, but the facts presented are so obvious that they cannot be denied.

JAVL,
Since you have presented yourself as such an authority including such an authority on the subject of “truth”, how many times have you read the Book of Mormon, cover to cover?

Also, do you know what I meant when I used the word “authenticity”?

Have a good day.

 

[LongJourney]

Parker, have you read my book?

Yes, I include some of my own fiction in my discussion of the BoM. It is obvious, and it is meant to illustrate a point. (Bubonic plague in pre-Columbian times) If you have read my book, and can tell the difference between stories told to illustrate a point, and reality, you are well on your way to understanding the BoM as ALLEGORY. Oh, BTW, there is NO ancient Jewish DNA among the Natives of the Americas. The Americas have been populated by HUMAN BEINGS for more than 14,000 years. I deny science?

 

[Javl]

JAVL,
Since you have presented yourself as such an authority including such an authority on the subject of “truth”, how many times have you read the Book of Mormon, cover to cover?

My being such an “authority on truth” is your perception for I am not. I have only presented the definition as has been used many times by many others.

I have read the Book of Mormon at least three times, and I must admit that I really enjoyed the stories in it. With the exception of the Biblical passages that were taken verbatim from the KJ Bible ( errors and all ), they make good subjects for a SciFi book. It is impossible for me, and many others, to accept these stories as true and that the events recorded actually happend. If they did occur then there would be not only scientific evidence but also relics for proof, as has been and is so for the Judaeo-Christian Bible. For the LDS to state and claim that the BoM is scripture and from God is really pushing the envelope.

Also, do you know what I meant when I used the word “authenticity”?

Have a good day.

Yes I do, I am not stupid.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[JHow]

“Contains beautiful truths” is not enough of standard to judge the BoM by. “Lord of the Rings” contains beautiful truths, but I am not locking my door against Sauron at night.

The BoM should be judged against its own truth claims, i.e., that it was found by miraculous means, translated by miraculous means, and that it describes real persons and events.

From the beginning, the book is problematic. The source text (the plates) are gone. It is by no means proven that they even existed. Very few people claim to have seen them - and those that might have can be fairly described as “partisan”. The language is problematic, as well. It is not clear what language the book was orginally supposed to have been written in. The claim of “Reformed Egyptian” doesn’t hold up. No matter how the tale is spun, Dr. Anthon did not endorse anything he was shown as being anything other than a hoax. No reliable drawings or representations of the language appear to have been kept, unless you want to count the “caractors” drawing posted earlier. The means of translation (urim and thumim) are also missing (with the book presumably), and the account of how they were possibly used is odd, to say the least, and doesn’t explain how the book could be translated (character by character, word by word - neither works with real languages!). All of this before we come to the historical aspects of the book, or any of the rest of its contents. The entire story of the finding of the book, really rests on Smith, and whether you believe him, and the truth is that Smith can’t account for how he came by this text. We either can’t put the claims to any test (“An angel appeared to me!”), or when we do (“The language is Reformed Egyptian”), it fails.

 

[ParkerD]

My being such an “authority on truth” is your perception for I am not. I have only presented the definition as has been used many times by many others.

I have read the Book of Mormon at least three times, and I must admit that I really enjoyed the stories in it. With the exception of the Biblical passages that were taken verbatim from the KJ Bible ( errors and all ), they make good subjects for a SciFi book. It is impossible for me, and many others, to accept these stories as true and that the events recorded actually happend. If they did occur then there would be not only scientific evidence but also relics for proof, as has been and is so for the Judaeo-Christian Bible. For the LDS to state and claim that the BoM is scripture and from God is really pushing the envelope.

Yes I do, I am not stupid.

JAVL,

I have wondered after reading your post, whether you have children, grandchildren, whether you have ever written fiction, whether you write letters including experiences from your life, whether you have written some kind of autobiographical presentation about yourself.

The reasons I have wondered those things is that a person who knows what is meant by the word “authenticity” with respect to writing, and a person who has read the Book of Mormon at least three times, will have encountered “authenticity” with respect to the counsel of a father to his sons and of a grandfather to his grandchildren.

Do you remember encountering those situations in your reading?

Since you know what “authenticity” means, go ahead when you have a minute and explain how a reader would identify if they were reading “authentic” writing, or not.

Thanks.

 

[Catholic20064]

JAVL,

I have wondered after reading your post, whether you have children, grandchildren, whether you have ever written fiction, whether you write letters including experiences from your life, whether you have written some kind of autobiographical presentation about yourself.

The reasons I have wondered those things is that a person who knows what is meant by the word “authenticity” with respect to writing, and a person who has read the Book of Mormon at least three times, will have encountered “authenticity” with respect to the counsel of a father to his sons and of a grandfather to his grandchildren.

Do you remember encountering those situations in your reading?

Since you know what “authenticity” means, go ahead when you have a minute and explain how a reader would identify if they were reading “authentic” writing, or not.

Thanks.

What essential truth do you think the Book of Mormon teaches that cannot already be found in the New Testament?