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1holycatholic
Guest
So you think it’s valid, but defective?
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brotherhrolf
Guest
One of the things that my brother, John, and I have gone round and round with over the years is this very issue. He and I are the same age. I have to say that in all my years as an altar boy, I never witnessed any “speed” TLM Mass. I served far too many 6 am Masses with just Father and me in our brand new parish. Father was never inebriated nor was he hung over nor did he rush the Mass.
That having been said, I knew several of my fellow classmates in high school who did know of “speed Masses” and did serve priests as described above. On the other hand, by 1970, I knew of a parish which had a speed Saturday vigil NO - in and out with sermon in under twenty-five minutes.
But there were no liturgical dancers wafting bowls of incense or liturgical pole bearers weaving beribboned poles down the main aisle of the cathedral. That I have seen with my own two eyes…much less music that Kermit and Miss Piggy could sing, etc., etc.
My experience with the EF was pristine. Sadly, I can’t say the same thing about the OF. I was spoiled. I would far rather serve a six am EF with just Father and me - “Et introibo ad altare Dei: ad Deum qui laetificat juventutem meam”,
That having been said, I knew several of my fellow classmates in high school who did know of “speed Masses” and did serve priests as described above. On the other hand, by 1970, I knew of a parish which had a speed Saturday vigil NO - in and out with sermon in under twenty-five minutes.
But there were no liturgical dancers wafting bowls of incense or liturgical pole bearers weaving beribboned poles down the main aisle of the cathedral. That I have seen with my own two eyes…much less music that Kermit and Miss Piggy could sing, etc., etc.
My experience with the EF was pristine. Sadly, I can’t say the same thing about the OF. I was spoiled. I would far rather serve a six am EF with just Father and me - “Et introibo ad altare Dei: ad Deum qui laetificat juventutem meam”,
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Dauphin
Guest
I don’t think I’d use that word. It contains a great deal of ambiguity, and fails to articulate the faith in the same way the TLM does. If you want to discuss this, you should start a new thread.
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cathguy
Guest
I think a way of putting this would be the following:
Subjectively that the Extraordinary Form is superior to the Ordinary Form as typically practiced in virtually every way. However, the Ordinary Form is perfectly valid, and remains the Ordinary form of the Mass for the Latin Rite.
That said, I personally find the Extraordinary Form more spiritually enriching and more theologically rich.
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killyclogher
Guest
One huge abuse is taking Holy Communion standing and in the hand. I have to take it standing as they bulldozed our Altar Rails but our priests do give it on the tongue. I attend a respectful NO Mass but if there was a Tridentine Mass I would attend. We have one only every now and again. The last one stated in the Bulletin that this service would fullfil our Sunday obligation!!! Now that’s sad.
I travel a lot but the different language are significant barriers. I wish it was mandatory to have only the Traditional Latin Mass.
I travel a lot but the different language are significant barriers. I wish it was mandatory to have only the Traditional Latin Mass.
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weepixie71
Guest
i was born in 1971 so the novus ordo is all i knew growing up, so i can not judge what took place before vat II.
i think that the priests that are doing the tlm are doing it because they truly have a love and appreciation for the tlm. where once there was a time only the tlm could be done now priests have a choice, which is making it less likely for us to witness an abuse.
i would think like all people and occupations, you have priests that really try to do a great job, some that do a good job, some that are just burned out and dont care anymore, and some that are just, well, lazy.
right now, the old mass is the new mass. my generation see it as a new kind of reverence. they are either loving it or hating it.
i know i have seen many abuses in the novus ordo. at least i think they are abuses, the rules get changed so many times that you cant really tell if something is deemed all right or not. but i have only reported an abuse once to my bishop.and in less than one year the whole parish was shut down.
i know i complain about a lot of the things ive seen but i cant say i reported them. or even questioned them with the priest. we have a duty to report the abuses if we see them. maybe if we did more often things wouldnt have gotten so out of hand in either mass.
i think that the priests that are doing the tlm are doing it because they truly have a love and appreciation for the tlm. where once there was a time only the tlm could be done now priests have a choice, which is making it less likely for us to witness an abuse.
i would think like all people and occupations, you have priests that really try to do a great job, some that do a good job, some that are just burned out and dont care anymore, and some that are just, well, lazy.
right now, the old mass is the new mass. my generation see it as a new kind of reverence. they are either loving it or hating it.
i know i have seen many abuses in the novus ordo. at least i think they are abuses, the rules get changed so many times that you cant really tell if something is deemed all right or not. but i have only reported an abuse once to my bishop.and in less than one year the whole parish was shut down.
i know i complain about a lot of the things ive seen but i cant say i reported them. or even questioned them with the priest. we have a duty to report the abuses if we see them. maybe if we did more often things wouldnt have gotten so out of hand in either mass.
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keepitreal
Guest
Well, yes! I guess the Novus Ordo took care of the “abuse problem” of the Traditional Mass, huh?!Fr. Groeschel on EWTN mentioned that one of the reasons for the institution of the OF mass was because of rampant abuses in the EF mass. I attend the EF only sporadically. I doubt I would know when an abuse in the EF occurred.
I know of a priest who celebrates both the EF and OF mass. While celebrating the OF he never says the words of consecration according to the rubrics.It drives me nuts, but I haven’t said anything.
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malphono
Guest
There are abuses and there are abuses.
Of course there were some abuses in the EF in the “old days” but when we speak of same it’s usually about matters of “omission” or speed, rather than matters of substance. Yes, there were “speed demons” at Low Mass. (I always loved when the “speed demons” had to do High Mass because they were stuck: they couldn’t really do the “speed thing” else it become to blatantly obvious!) I never experienced a priest who “ad libbed” or changed, or added something of this own, and yes, I would notice. Nor have I ever seen or heard about a priest improperly vested. Nor improper preachers. Nor improper altar vessels, nor … well, you get the idea.
But when we speak of “abuses” in the OF, we go on a different road entirely. It’s not usually “omission” or “speed” that is a problem but rather “addition” and of course ad-libbing. And let’s not forget “Sister X” or “Minister Y” as the “guest homilist.” Nor the lovely new “vestment” with a silk-screened print of a tranquil ocean view scene sprawling all over the so-called chasuble (and of course the stole outside). Nor ceramic “chalices” Nor “step right up, everybody and gather round the table.” Nor … well, you get the idea again.
As I see it, the difference in the type of abuses between the EF (pre-conciliar) and the OF is remarkable in and of itself. The abuses in the first were just plain sloppy. The abuses in the second are calculated. They both amount to “bad liturgical practice,” but to me, at least, it’s a vastly more serious matter when it’s “calculated” rather than due to simple laziness.
Somehow I doubt that, had the EF (meaning the Missal of 1962 and not that “interim Missal” fiasco of 1965) remained in place as the single form, the abuses would have morphed into what has become commonplace in the OF. Most likely they would have remained just as they were. And just as infrequent as they were.
But all of this is only MHO.
Of course there were some abuses in the EF in the “old days” but when we speak of same it’s usually about matters of “omission” or speed, rather than matters of substance. Yes, there were “speed demons” at Low Mass. (I always loved when the “speed demons” had to do High Mass because they were stuck: they couldn’t really do the “speed thing” else it become to blatantly obvious!) I never experienced a priest who “ad libbed” or changed, or added something of this own, and yes, I would notice. Nor have I ever seen or heard about a priest improperly vested. Nor improper preachers. Nor improper altar vessels, nor … well, you get the idea.
But when we speak of “abuses” in the OF, we go on a different road entirely. It’s not usually “omission” or “speed” that is a problem but rather “addition” and of course ad-libbing. And let’s not forget “Sister X” or “Minister Y” as the “guest homilist.” Nor the lovely new “vestment” with a silk-screened print of a tranquil ocean view scene sprawling all over the so-called chasuble (and of course the stole outside). Nor ceramic “chalices” Nor “step right up, everybody and gather round the table.” Nor … well, you get the idea again.
As I see it, the difference in the type of abuses between the EF (pre-conciliar) and the OF is remarkable in and of itself. The abuses in the first were just plain sloppy. The abuses in the second are calculated. They both amount to “bad liturgical practice,” but to me, at least, it’s a vastly more serious matter when it’s “calculated” rather than due to simple laziness.
Somehow I doubt that, had the EF (meaning the Missal of 1962 and not that “interim Missal” fiasco of 1965) remained in place as the single form, the abuses would have morphed into what has become commonplace in the OF. Most likely they would have remained just as they were. And just as infrequent as they were.
But all of this is only MHO.
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SenorSalsa
Guest
Not having been alive the most common one I have heard of was saying the communion prayer once every three or four people
Just out of curiosity why was there such a push for speed in some places? I realize it still happens, but I see 45 minutes as a goal for those priests. Nothing like the 15-20 I have heard of
Just out of curiosity why was there such a push for speed in some places? I realize it still happens, but I see 45 minutes as a goal for those priests. Nothing like the 15-20 I have heard of
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malphono
Guest
In a lot of places, there were Sunday Masses every hour on the hour (or some such) from 6am through 11am, including at least one High Mass (and sometimes a missa recitata ("dialogue Mass) in the mix, both of which always took longer. The “speed demons” wanted to “get it over with” so the next Mass could start on time. Never a 15-20 minute “special” on a Sunday (at least I never experienced one). The “speed demons” were usually done in about half an hour, plus time for communion. The norm was 45 minutes (again plus time for communion). And remember, it was mainly at Low Mass. And yes, the speed thing happens in the OF too.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
One reason could have been that there was a much higher percentage of Catholics at Mass on Sunday (this is before the Saturday vigil)–so many places, especially in large cities, had to schedule Masses every hour. So you would need to get people in and out, get the organist/choir ready (the ‘shorter’ low Mass often alternated with a High Mass), etc.
Of course, even though I am old enough to remember the Latin Mass in my childhood, I don’t remember 15-20 minute Masses --not even on Lenten weekdays when we children would March down for 8 a.m. Mass (school starting at 9 a.m.) --usually Mass would last until 8:50 giving us plenty of time to walk to school next door.
This is one of those situations where there aren’t really all that many of us on the forums who do remember personally, and we tend to have memories either like John of these speedy Masses happening, or like brotherholf and I, never saw them even though he was an altar boy and I was a choir girl. (Which means we both participated in a LOT of Masses, believe me). To this day, when I walk into a Church, the ‘older’ it is, the more comfortable I am, having such wonderfully positive memories and associations tied in with attendance at Mass in my youth. (But even if the church is hideously ugly and looks like a cardboard box, if there’s a tabernacle --even buried in the coal cellar–and there’s a Mass offered, unless it is totally and undeniably invalid with the priest ‘offering’ beer and tortillas–I’ll still be ‘comfortable’ and happy because it is a church, meaning it’s God’s house.)
Of course, even though I am old enough to remember the Latin Mass in my childhood, I don’t remember 15-20 minute Masses --not even on Lenten weekdays when we children would March down for 8 a.m. Mass (school starting at 9 a.m.) --usually Mass would last until 8:50 giving us plenty of time to walk to school next door.
This is one of those situations where there aren’t really all that many of us on the forums who do remember personally, and we tend to have memories either like John of these speedy Masses happening, or like brotherholf and I, never saw them even though he was an altar boy and I was a choir girl. (Which means we both participated in a LOT of Masses, believe me). To this day, when I walk into a Church, the ‘older’ it is, the more comfortable I am, having such wonderfully positive memories and associations tied in with attendance at Mass in my youth. (But even if the church is hideously ugly and looks like a cardboard box, if there’s a tabernacle --even buried in the coal cellar–and there’s a Mass offered, unless it is totally and undeniably invalid with the priest ‘offering’ beer and tortillas–I’ll still be ‘comfortable’ and happy because it is a church, meaning it’s God’s house.)
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bilop
Guest
Excellent post!
Abuses of sloppiness or even laziness are much different than abuses of disobedience.
God Bless
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redrosetea
Guest
Yes we were given bread that was baked by the parishioners…It was leavened
We were not receiving communion and didn’t know it…The priest should have known it
We were not receiving communion and didn’t know it…The priest should have known it
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killyclogher
Guest
I went to the old Mass every day for twenty years and the quickest we ever got out was 30 mins and that was Fr. Shields RIP as he was always busy going here or there fund-raising for the Church. He was a hit or a miss as there were no Bulletins then. Coming home from Mass we’d meet others going and they’d always ask who said Mass - if we said Fr Shields which we loved to tell them - they’d roll their eyes and we’d laugh back and tease them. His confessional always had the longest line. We were teenagers.
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CradleCath
Guest
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killyclogher
Guest
PS: We followed the Mass with our Marian Missal and NOTHING was omitted. If it was, trust me, we’d have picked it up as we were so wellversed but as it was it wasn’t even a consideration. Those who say such things have no idea how reverent and respectful we were - at least inside the Church. 
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1holycatholic
Guest
He mentioned it on one of the episodes of Sunday Night Live recently (in the past few months.) Sorry, I don’t recall which particular episode. IIRC he mentioned the hurried mumbling of prayers in the liturgy prior to Vatican II.
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1holycatholic
Guest
Sloppiness and laziness are intentional acts of disobedience.
If a married man commits adultery with a prostitute or a with a woman he meets at a party, what difference does it make to his wife? In either case he is unfaithful to his bride.
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malphono
Guest
Oh please … That is the most absurd comparison I’ve seen in years. It doesn’t warrant more of a comment than that.
Sloppiness and laziness in the EF are definitely poor liturgical practice, but the intent would seem to be less that of “intentional disobedience” than just being sloppy and lazy. Best not to even begin putting them in the same category as some of the poor liturgical practices that many of us have seen in the OF.
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bilop
Guest
As Malphono said, quite absurd.
Do you really believe that to mumble a prayer or to go too fast is in the same league as intentionally changing the Mass to suit one’s own political or theological views?
A more apt comparison would be a man who forgets his wife’s birthday to one who spends his wife’s birthday with his mistress.
God Bless
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