Have you witnessed liturgical abuses in the EF mass?

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killyclogher said:
One huge abuse is taking Holy Communion standing and in the hand. I have to take it standing as they bulldozed our Altar Rails but our priests do give it on the tongue. I attend a respectful NO Mass but if there was a Tridentine Mass I would attend. We have one only every now and again. The last one stated in the Bulletin that this service would fullfil our Sunday obligation!!! Now that’s sad.

I travel a lot but the different language are significant barriers. I wish it was mandatory to have only the Traditional Latin Mass.
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How is that abuse?

Every ordinary (or extraordinary) minister of Holy Communion should let you receive on the tongue.
 
1holycatholic said:
I have wanted to suggest that to the priest I mentioned for some time. Can the priest say just the words of institution in Latin in an otherwise vernacular mass?
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I seem to recall hearing of priests who would say Mass in vernacular, except for the Eurcharistic Prayer, which they do in Latin, I dont see why you couldnt do even less just in latin
 
bilop said:
If the words of consecration “this is my body”, “this is the cup of my blood”, are not said, then no transubstantiation occurs. There is no Mass. So, you should definitely say something, and contact the Bishop if necessary.

I am a little suprised to hear this about a priest who does the EF; normally such priest are very reverent and exact. Are you sure he is changing the words of institution? Could he be using a Eucharistic prayer with which you are not familiar?

Most of the abuse cited pre-VII in the old mass were the priest going very fast and not praying all the words of all the prayers. Ad libbing was virtually impossible b/c most priests’ Latin wouldn’t be good enough, and almost nobody would know what he was saying, so why ad-lib?

God Bless
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For anybody old enough to remember the old Lucky Strike ads, they featured a tobacco auctioneer. Sounded like this [fast forward to the 1:08 mark . . . ] Just like the old Latin Mass sounded to most people. Y’know? The ones who didn’t bring a facing-page missal and were just there to check of their Sunday obligation.
 
1holycatholic said:
He mentioned it on one of the episodes of Sunday Night Live recently (in the past few months.) Sorry, I don’t recall which particular episode. IIRC he mentioned the hurried mumbling of prayers in the liturgy prior to Vatican II.
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I saw that episode. Moreover, he mentioned that he, himself, was part of a liturgical reform movement that was pushing to have priests say Mass the way the EF people now say it: reverently.

There was a priest in my parish before the changes, who got sent away for a few months because he used to say weekday Masses drunk. At 9:00 o’clock in the morning. Of course, this has nothing to do with OF vs EF: that’s an abuse on anybody’s chart.
 
mercygate said:
For anybody old enough to remember the old Lucky Strike ads, they featured a tobacco auctioneer. Sounded like this [fast forward to the 1:08 mark . . . ] Just like the old Latin Mass sounded to most people. Y’know? The ones who didn’t bring a facing-page missal and were just there to check of their Sunday obligation.
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Somehow I get the feeling that you don’t care for the EF. :hmmm:

Yeah well, anyway, I remember that ad. Nonetheless, it seems to me the comparison carries things rather too far. The only times where the pre-conciliar EF might have sounded that bad was in a “speed demon” case. And in the event you haven’t noticed, those exist in the OF as well, and they don’t sound any better there just because they’re in the vernacular. The Lucky Strike ad was vernacular too, wasn’t it?
 
There’s nothing that human beings are involved in that cannot be abused, even the Latin Mass.

Abuses existed; they were just of a different sort than people see today.
 
malphono said:
Somehow I get the feeling that you don’t care for the EF. :hmmm:

Yeah well, anyway, I remember that ad. Nonetheless, it seems to me the comparison carries things rather too far. The only times where the pre-conciliar EF might have sounded that bad was in a “speed demon” case. And in the event you haven’t noticed, those exist in the OF as well, and they don’t sound any better there just because they’re in the vernacular. The Lucky Strike ad was vernacular too, wasn’t it?
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For what it’s worth, I attend the EF regularly and teach my CCD kids the Our Father, Hail Mary, and Sign of the Cross in Latin.
 
I’ve seen an abuse.

We had a Novus Ordo Priest say our mass a few times. While I was serving I noticed that he said some of the Novus Ordo paryers, rather than the correct prayers.

Other than that, having attending Masses for 11 years all over the country, I can’t recal anything done incorrectly.
 
1holycatholic said:
I’m not certain how mass could be said in fifteen minutes unless this guy was ordained a priest:
http://www.offuhuge.com/thumbs/4e045c10fa32.jpg
😉
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Then you have never attended weekday morning Mass at Good Shepard in Beverly Hills, CA.

When I was there the celebrant did both readings. No homily. The altar was dressed before Mass began and there were few in attendance. I clocked it at 13 minutes and change.

Please keep in mind this may in no way be typical for that parish nor was it especially irreverent except for the obvious time saving measures.
 
Yours_Truly said:
I’ve seen an abuse.

We had a Novus Ordo Priest say our mass a few times. While I was serving I noticed that he said some of the Novus Ordo paryers, rather than the correct prayers.

Other than that, having attending Masses for 11 years all over the country, I can’t recal anything done incorrectly.
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What’s a “Novus Ordo Priest?” Good grief! 😦
 
Merkel said:
What’s a “Novus Ordo Priest?” Good grief! 😦
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I would think the term refers to a priest trained to celebrate the Mass of Paul VI, who is now also says the Tridentine Mass. No “good grief” necessary.
 
With the restoraton of the EF since the mid-'80s, those who celebrate it generallly do so with great reverence and with care and attention to detail. I have never seen it otherwise until yesterday morning.

We made our monthly pilgrimage to the local EF Mass, where the priest celebrated without ONCE raising his voice enough to be audible. Even the Gospel was read sotto voce. Even the “Dominus vobiscums” were inaudible. Forget the “Secret” – EVERYTHING was “secret.”

The homily was two sentences that did not take up 7 seconds on the clock.

Even DH, who is uncritically pro-TLM, suggested that he would call ahead next time and stand down if this guy is scheduled. It was and a parody of everything the detractors claim about the TLM. Perfect agony

That said, the poor priest was very elderly and likely unable to conduct the Mass according to the rubrics. We were told that this is the way he always celebrates. He needs to come off the Sunday rota . . . .
 
mercygate said:
With the restoraton of the EF since the mid-'80s, those who celebrate it generallly do so with great reverence and with care and attention to detail. I have never seen it otherwise until yesterday morning.

We made our monthly pilgrimage to the local EF Mass, where the priest celebrated without ONCE raising his voice enough to be audible. Even the Gospel was read sotto voce. Even the “Dominus vobiscums” were inaudible. Forget the “Secret” – EVERYTHING was “secret.”

The homily was two sentences that did not take up 7 seconds on the clock.

Even DH, who is uncritically pro-TLM, suggested that he would call ahead next time and stand down if this guy is scheduled. It was and a parody of everything the detractors claim about the TLM. Perfect agony

That said, the poor priest was very elderly and likely unable to conduct the Mass according to the rubrics. We were told that this is the way he always celebrates. He needs to come off the Sunday rota . . . .
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Yes, that sort of thing can happen, but it hardly qualifies as an intentional abuse.

It reminds me of a retired priest I met 40 years ago. As I recall, he was over 80 at the time, and categorically refused to offer Mass except in Latin using the 1962 Missal. Normally he did his Mass privately with one server, but on occasion they’d trot him out and allow him to take the early public Mass (which was never well attended anyway). The service was pretty much what you had yesterday.

FYI, the place was totally (and I mean totally) “Spirit of Vatican II” (ceramic “chalices,” burlap banners and “vestments,” home-baked altar bread, guitars and more guitars, etc). Considering the whole picture, the only reason that the retired priest was occasionally given that early Mass was to make an old man feel useful. Could that have been the case at your church yesterday?
 
malphono said:
Yes, that sort of thing can happen, but it hardly qualifies as an intentional abuse.

It reminds me of a retired priest I met 40 years ago. As I recall, he was over 80 at the time, and categorically refused to offer Mass except in Latin using the 1962 Missal. Normally he did his Mass privately with one server, but on occasion they’d trot him out and allow him to take the early public Mass (which was never well attended anyway). The service was pretty much what you had yesterday.

FYI, the place was totally (and I mean totally) “Spirit of Vatican II” (ceramic “chalices,” burlap banners and “vestments,” home-baked altar bread, guitars and more guitars, etc). Considering the whole picture, the only reason that the retired priest was occasionally given that early Mass was to make an old man feel useful. Could that have been the case at your church yesterday?
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Very likely. They’re still building their team of men who can do this liturgy; I had a lot of sympathy for him but really – he was way beyond a reasonable line of accommodation. And yes: it is not intentional abuse. But these are sensitive times. Someone showing up to “check this out” would have been dismayed.
 
mercygate said:
And yes: it is not intentional abuse. But these are sensitive times. Someone showing up to “check this out” would have been dismayed.
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Our very first traditional Latin Mass, ten years ago, was just like this. Frankly, we were scandalized. Part of it is that we were starving to death spiritually and socially (we could find no orthodox Catholics whatsoever at our local parish). Part of it was misplaced expectations–I had been to Divine Liturgy a couple of times in the Byzantine Rite and so I was expecting the Western equivalent, a sung High Mass. Instead we got this mumbled Low Mass–we were literally ten feet away from the priest, in this little country church, and couldn’t hear a word–and then left without anybody saying a word to us. We would have walked out if it hadn’t been Holy Mass; my wife and I wanted to cry on the way home, we were so desolate. I became a confirmed critic of the traditional Latin Mass that day.

But some friends kept engaging us about the Latin Mass and I kept studying and then I read Msgr. Klaus Gamber’s The Reform of the Roman Liturgy and…just look at me now, I won’t go to anything else 😉
 
DavidPalm said:
Our very first traditional Latin Mass, ten years ago, was just like this. Frankly, we were scandalized. Part of it is that we were starving to death spiritually and socially (we could find no orthodox Catholics whatsoever at our local parish). Part of it was misplaced expectations–I had been to Divine Liturgy a couple of times in the Byzantine Rite and so I was expecting the Western equivalent, a sung High Mass. Instead we got this mumbled Low Mass–we were literally ten feet away from the priest, in this little country church, and couldn’t hear a word–and then left without anybody saying a word to us. We would have walked out if it hadn’t been Holy Mass; my wife and I wanted to cry on the way home, we were so desolate. I became a confirmed critic of the traditional Latin Mass that day.

But some friends kept engaging us about the Latin Mass and I kept studying and then I read Msgr. Klaus Gamber’s The Reform of the Roman Liturgy and…just look at me now, I won’t go to anything else 😉
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The TLM is beautiful. And I LOVE Low Mass. It is intimate and accessible. Of course, I also love an all-stops-out Pontifical Solemn High Mass (with Palestrina).

But I’m not about to go completely “Trad” since I profoundly value the new lectionary and when the OF is celebrated with dignity and respect according to the norms, it is both powerful and beautiful. It’s not always easy to find that but it does exist – and in metro NYC we have options not available elsewhere, such as Fr. George Rutler’s parish, The Church of Our Saviour on Park Avenue.
 
The greatest disrespect I have experienced in attending theTLM prior to vatican2 is a rather hurried celebration.
However I have just about reached the end of my rope with the Novus Ordo being celebrated in my Diocese.I dont really think that there is much difference in the way it is celebrated elsewhere.With the lifting of the excommunication of the Bishops of the SSPX ,I decided to attend a Mass celebrated once a month at a local mission of there’s in our diocese…It was a breath of fresh air.I felt that I had finally found a home.
There is no other celebration of the TLM by the Priestly Fraternity of St.Peter ,SSPX or any one else ,anywhere else in the Diocese .I asked some of those attending what they did for Sunday obligation the rest of the month.They said that they stayed home and prayed the rosary and meditated.
I am fed up with the way the NO is celebrated in my experience with a total lack of any sense of the sacred.The seemingly endless supply of prayer options for the celebrant.Try sometime to follow the mass with a missal.Those assisting at mass be they male or female do not dress for the occasion to say the least .There is no sense of appropriate vesting for these people.The celebrant grabbing handfuls of the Sacred Species and dropping them into one of the many ciborium.Sometimes dropping them on the Altar Sometimes on the floor without very much of a concern.Everyone Going up to receive the Eucharist without exception.Is this not one of the greatest scandals in the church today .
Have I witnessed any Liturgical abuses in the celebration of the TLM? They are nothing compared to what you experience with the NO.
Then again The purpose for changing the Mass was never to eliminate the abuses.You would need to educate and discipline the celebrant to do that.Don’t you think?
God Bless
 
Nickelous said:
Everyone Going up to receive the Eucharist without exception.Is this not one of the greatest scandals in the church today .
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And so you are going to judge who should and shouldn’t receive???
 
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