Have you witnessed liturgical abuses in the EF mass?

[Nickelous]

No Tim I don’t Judge
I just think I must be witnessing a miracle that the post vatican 2 crowd of faithful have been so blessed by the holy spirit that they are no longer in need of confession.Those of the pre V2 generation have all realised that the things we thought were sinful are no longer so. Or what is it do you think?
Help me I’m puzzled.
God Bless

 

[Nickelous]

Well David
Sour Grapes HMMMM?
What you seem to be implying is that I am upset that I and my many peers need not have troubled ourselves over our sinfulness and should be rellieved to finally see the light. is that what you are saying?Or???
Tell me.

 

[Stromboli]

I was raised in the pre VII church and distinctly remember Masses that were less than 30 min., on Sunday, including Communion. When I got married we belonged to a parish that was a Priory of a certain Order, and there was a priest who was noted for his speedy Masses. We, along with my in-laws, deliberately chose to go to his Masses because he could get you “in and out” in less than 25 min. My husband says it ws more like 20 min., but I’ll give the priest the benefit of the extra 5 min.

My only complaint when the new Mass was introduced was that it was too long. I had moved to a new parish by then, and Mass was an hour long I liked everything else, esp. when they switched to English. Now, of course, I could happily sit in church for a couple of hours (like at the Easter Vigil). But back then, it was a shock to my system, being used to much shorter Masses, and going, really, because I was obliged to, not really wanting to.

As for people being more educated in their faith pre-and post Vat. II, I think it depends on what you mean by educated. People certainly knew more of the Catechism and Church rules, but unless they were really, really interested, they knew very little else, and they often did not know the reasoning behind what they learned. It was not common to read or study the Bible, study Church documents, Church history, Apologetics, Theology, etc. Most of that was outside of the everyday experience of most of the laity. Today the laity is very blessed to have access to and encouragement to become well-educated in all aspects of the faith, although basic catechesis is sometimes lacking, but it is getting better. And now we are expected to do our part in evangelization and education and Christian formation–it’s not just the part of the clergy anymore. When I look at the multitude of educational opportunities taking place in my parish and those in my Diocese, and of the number of people involved, I sometimes am truly astounded at how far we have come in the past 50 years in this area.

I think that in the future there will be a trend back to more solid catechesis and a more faithful Catholicism. But I do not think things will ever be the way it was before Vat.II. But I think largely the time of experimentation is over, although there will be a few holdouts. I think we are finally learning from our mistakes.

I loved reading your post…

For so many years I was angry and nit-picky about what I perceived to be liturgical “abuses.” Nothing ever seemed to improve – until I got a new pastor and a new bishop. I am so much HAPPIER now in an ecclesiastical sense.

Some spend far too much time wound-up in anger…

 

[Ad_Deum]

The Extraordinary Form or Tridentum Missae is very ritualistic but reverent, solemn and beautiful, it is somehow parallel to the Divine Liturgy of the Orthodox Church–long forms of prayers, chants, beautiful vestments, used of gold vessels, incense, and chant throughout… While the Ordinary Form or the Novus Ordo Missae is simplified–prayers are more shorter, orientation of the priest changed (Ad Orientem to Ad Populum), less used of chants, different preference of vestments and vessels, less incense, and so forth… Although both has good and bad, some think that EF is less lay participation while the OF is very lay friendly (if I may term that)… Yet both valid according to the Canon Law of the Church; if the OF is done like the EF I think the wound between the splits or contradictions would heal… in time… I believe both has abuses of its own, and in addition there is no perfect way to worship God in a physical sense; God wanted our hearts and minds to Him alone, and I believe true worship is giving and surrendering ourselves to Him and knowing that He is God worthy of praise, honor, glory, and worship…

Laudater Jesus Christus!

 

[mullenpm]

“FYI, the place was totally (and I mean totally) “Spirit of Vatican II” (ceramic “chalices,” burlap banners and “vestments,” home-baked altar bread, guitars and more guitars, etc). . .”

Come on, malphono, I have NEVER, and I mean NEVER, seen ceramic chalices, burlap banners and vestments, etc. at any Pauline Mass I have attended. This is the same old argument used over and over about the inferiority of the Pauline Mass. Can we get over it?

 

[malphono]

“FYI, the place was totally (and I mean totally) “Spirit of Vatican II” (ceramic “chalices,” burlap banners and “vestments,” home-baked altar bread, guitars and more guitars, etc). . .”

Come on, malphono, I have NEVER, and I mean NEVER, seen ceramic chalices, burlap banners and vestments, etc. at any Pauline Mass I have attended. This is the same old argument used over and over about the inferiority of the Pauline Mass. Can we get over it?

Believe what you wish, but I’ve got news for you: such things did and do exist.

 

[DavidPalm]

Well David
Sour Grapes HMMMM?
What you seem to be implying is that I am upset that I and my many peers need not have troubled ourselves over our sinfulness and should be rellieved to finally see the light. is that what you are saying?Or???
Tell me.

Actually, my comments were directed more toward Fr. Groeschel than toward you. I think that it may just be a case of sour grapes for Fr. Groeschel to start reminiscing about liturgical abuses in the Gregorian rite. I’ve seen this a lot and we see it here on this thread. One starts commenting on the horrendous abuse in the Pauline rite–which really became a whole culture of liturgical abuse, from the late Holy Father right on down–and we get “Oh yeah, well there were abuses in the EF too ya know. I mean, sometimes they used to say the prayers really fast!” As if that somehow balances out the absolutely scandalous liturgical behavior even of so-called “conservatives” like Cardinal Schonborn (if you have the stomach for it see the awful video linked in the Pictures thread), not to mention the late Holy Father.

The liturgical abuses don’t in and of themselves demonstrate a superiority of one rite over the other, but in terms of the nature and gravity of the abuses there’s just no comparison.

 

[Nickelous]

Father Groeschel claims to have witnessed many abuses in the celebration of the OF.I do not doubt for an instant that what he says is correct.No liturgical form has within itself the ability to prevent abuse.What most traditionalists refer to as liturgical abuse in the celebration of the OF derive from their disagreement with the design I would call it of this form of worship.
Personally I believe that while the OF is a valid liturgy in that it has valid matter form and intention it is not as appropriate for it’s purposes a form of worship as the EF.This presumes that either form is celebrated to the best of the celebrant’s ability and in keeping with rules of the Girm for either Mass.But that is only my opinion humbly offered
God Bless