Have your arm relaxing on pew inside the church?

[Cat]

Traditional Cath, thanks for all the thoughtful answers. I disagree with some of them, but oh well.

There is one clarification:

I asked:
6. When I had my cast, is it permissible to prop it on the pew? (Please answer this quickly–I did so for several weeks, and I need to know if I should go to Reconciliation and confess this.)

You said:
Answer: no it is not acceptable unless there is no one sitting with you. you obviously are not going to put your leg up on the next pew, but i hardly see anything wrong with propping your leg up on the seat your in as long as it is not sticking up on the next pew in front of you. if you can help it, keep your leg down in your pew.

OK–did you see that I said “when I had my cast.” Perhaps I didn’t make that clear. I had a cast on my right leg for 12 weeks. I was on disability leave from work. During those twelve weeks I was under doctors’ orders to keep my leg elevated as much as possible to try to decrease the swelling. It hurt me to sit with my leg on the floor like a normal person. I used a roll-about to prop my leg up when I wasn’t in bed.

I missed three weeks of Mass while I still had an open splint on my leg, but once I got the cast, I wanted to go back to Mass.

However, the roll-about didn’t fit in our church aisle. (It was a tripping hazard.)

SO–I propped my leg up on the my pew. I sat in the very back row and propped my casted leg up on my pew. Yes, I took up most of a pew, but there was still room for people.

Everyone seemed fine with it. My fellow Mass attendees were kind and concerned for my health and comfort. The ushers informed the extraordinary Eucharistic ministers and they brought Holy Communion back to me. The priests encouraged me every week.

So, Traditional Cath, does this change your answer in any way? Would you still tell me to “keep my leg down in my pew?” Or am I totally misunderstanding your answer?

I honestly don’t think I did anything disrespectful or irreverent or inconsiderate. I really had no choice, other than sitting on a chair at the back with my leg propped on my roll-about. I suppose I could have done that, but that would have called even more attention to me.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Traditional Cath, thanks for all the thoughtful answers. I disagree with some of them, but oh well.

There is one clarification:

I asked:
6. When I had my cast, is it permissible to prop it on the pew? (Please answer this quickly–I did so for several weeks, and I need to know if I should go to Reconciliation and confess this.)

You said:
Answer: no it is not acceptable unless there is no one sitting with you. you obviously are not going to put your leg up on the next pew, but i hardly see anything wrong with propping your leg up on the seat your in as long as it is not sticking up on the next pew in front of you. if you can help it, keep your leg down in your pew.

OK–did you see that I said “when I had my cast.” Perhaps I didn’t make that clear. I had a cast on my right leg for 12 weeks. I was on disability leave from work. During those twelve weeks I was under doctors’ orders to keep my leg elevated as much as possible to try to decrease the swelling. It hurt me to sit with my leg on the floor like a normal person. I used a roll-about to prop my leg up when I wasn’t in bed.

I missed three weeks of Mass while I still had an open splint on my leg, but once I got the cast, I wanted to go back to Mass.

However, the roll-about didn’t fit in our church aisle. (It was a tripping hazard.)

SO–I propped my leg up on the my pew. I sat in the very back row and propped my casted leg up on my pew. Yes, I took up most of a pew, but there was still room for people.

Everyone seemed fine with it. My fellow Mass attendees were kind and concerned for my health and comfort. The ushers informed the extraordinary Eucharistic ministers and they brought Holy Communion back to me. The priests encouraged me every week.

So, Traditional Cath, does this change your answer in any way? Would you still tell me to “keep my leg down in my pew?” Or am I totally misunderstanding your answer?

I honestly don’t think I did anything disrespectful or irreverent or inconsiderate. I really had no choice, other than sitting on a chair at the back with my leg propped on my roll-about. I suppose I could have done that, but that would have called even more attention to me.

You did what you had to do, No one would dispute that. My brother in-law is in a wheel chail and in the Protistant congregation he went to they asked him to not bring his chair in when they had services. It was toooo hard for some people to get around.

But, OTOH if you just wanted to “rest” your leg, because you do the same at home for no reason but habit, then no IMHO it would not be proper to do at Mass.

 

[Jennifer_G]

yah, thanks. That’s what I was referring too.
yes, it is rude.

I’ve actually never seen anyone do this. (except for maybe kids under 5 who are bored, upon which their parents correct them.)

 

[Cat]

Annc, no sarcasm intended. Absolutely none. I’m sorry if that’s the impression that my post gave. I was dead serious.

I was also dead serious when I compared this discussion topic to the way I was raised in the evangelical Protestant churches. In fact, I am wondering if the people who are watching out for abuses and liturgical incorrectness and irreverence brought this with them from Protestant churches. To me, it seems like a very Protestant thing to do.

The OP asked a question about bodily postures. I asked several questions about bodily postures.

When I converted to Catholicism, the RCIA instructors taught us about appropriate Mass postures and positions.

For example, the correct way to fold the hands is with the right thumb over the left thumb. So I always pray the “correct” way.

Another example is that we are not supposed to raise our hands or hold hands during the Our Father. So I never do, even though most of the people in our parish hold hands and elevate them.

But I have never heard the admonition about not resting an arm or arms on the pew back.

I still haven’t seen any written documentation forbidding arms over the pew back. (My RCIA instructors DID show us documentation about the thumb thing and the Our Father positions.)

One of the posters mentioned that her priest asked her husband to stop putting his arm over the pew back. IF my priest(s) asked us to stop doing something or to start doing something, I would comply because the priests are given their authority over us by the Bishop who receives his authority from Jesus.

However, our priests have not spoken about any of the bodily positions that I questioned, or the question that the OP posed.

Our priests HAVE spoken about gum-chewing and cell phones, so they do speak up when something is not right.

Since they haven’t spoken up about the arms across the pew backs yet, I’m going to assume that we are all permitted to assume such a posture during Mass.

I imagine that most of us involved in this thread will probably sit perfectly straight, eyes forward, feet on the ground, hands folded in our laps–at least this weekend! I plan to keep my eyes SHUT during most of the Mass so that I won’t notice all the people around me who are doing something that might be irreverent.

 

[water]

I plan to keep my eyes SHUT during most of the Mass so that I won’t notice all the people around me who are doing something that might be irreverent.

The thing is in many similar threads such as this, some people have assumed that just because someone raised a question, he/she must be going to mass and look for things wrong in other person. It is not the main issue. It is dead wrong and does not make this forum as it is intended to be. We are here to discuss whether it is something in some rules of the Church or not.

People would jump right on and think that an original poster has nothing else to do at the mass than just looking for other people doing wrong thing.

Even if, as you say, “I plan to keep my eyes SHUT during most of the Mass”, it is not going to solve any problem.

When I posted this thread, I know it is a little thing, and I can attend mass with people having their arms like that. In fact, I’ve been to daily mass and have seen this quite often:

** – Those people who do it are no one other than those who come up and read the Readings.
– an adult serving as the altar service would sit next to the priest and had his feet raised up so he could check his own shoes.
– etc …**
**
Does one really need to look for this to see…NO! it is right in front of the whole church. Because of this, my thread had been created – be aware of the surrounding. You are not alone!

Next time, I would be extra careful raising a question on this forum. Man, I didn’t know what I would’ve got into.
**

 

[Annc]

But I have never heard the admonition about not resting an arm or arms on the pew back.

As far as I know, there is nothing formal or in writing prohibiting a person from resting their arms on the back of the pew, however, I think common sense and courtesy should help you decide what is the right course of action.

You would think from some of the postings on this thread, and the one about kneeling, that some of you only do what the bishops tell you. That you don’t have an independent or original thought. Somehow I don’t think that is really the case. I think we should just be honest and admit that we use " the bishop said so" when it is convenient and discard it when it is not. I take obedience very seriously but when something doesn’t seem right or I don’t understand then the struggle begins. I ask questions, seek answers and try to understand.

Peace

 

[Annc]

The thing is in many similar threads such as this, some people have assumed that just because someone raised a question, he/she must be going to mass and look for things wrong in other person. It is not the main issue. It is dead wrong and does not make this forum as it is intended to be. We are here to discuss whether it is something in some rules of the Church or not.

Next time, I would be extra careful raising a question on this forum. Man, I didn’t know what I would’ve got into.

Water,

Thank you…I understood where you were coming from. Keep asking the questions. There are people out here who want to discuss them nicely. I hope I have done so.

Peace.

 

[paramedicgirl]

As far as I know, there is nothing formal or in writing prohibiting a person from resting their arms on the back of the pew, however, I think common sense and courtesy should help you decide what is the right course of action.

You would think from some of the postings on this thread, and the one about kneeling, that some of you only do what the bishops tell you. That you don’t have an independent or original thought. Somehow I don’t think that is really the case. I think we should just be honest and admit that we use " the bishop said so" when it is convenient and discard it when it is not. I take obedience very seriously but when something doesn’t seem right or I don’t understand then the struggle begins. I ask questions, seek answers and try to understand.

Peace

There isn’t any admonishment against cartwheels or picking your nose either, just for the record. Common sense goes a long way in the absence of rigid rules, doesn’t it?

 

[Cat]

Actually, Annc, I pay very close attention to what my priests and bishop teach about Mass behaviors, and I do what they say. If they make no pronouncement about a behavior/gesture/etc., then I assume that there is no Church directive.

I came from an evangelical Protestant background (over 40 years), where I was supposedly “free” to think for myself and make decisions about what is appropriate and inappropriate. (As I have mentioned, there were unwritten “rules” that all of us were expected to obey, or our Christianity was called into question, so I don’t think we were really “free” at all.).

Because of this “free” background, I try to be very, very careful about obeying the teachings of the Bishop and my priests when it comes to Mass behaviors. I was not raised Catholic–far from it–so I have no “background,” no memories of how things used to be back before Vatican II, no training by nuns or Catholic relatives.

All I know is what I am told by the men–my bishop and my priests–that I trust because I believe that their authority comes from Jesus Christ Himself.

I would never make up my own mind about these things. Maybe it sounds robotic, but I don’t trust myself. I do trust Jesus and His Church leaders.

I certainly believe in thinking for myself when it comes to sinful actions; e.g., if a priest ever approached me sexually, I would run away and report him.

But when it comes to Mass behaviors, positions, postures, gestures, etc., I depend on my priests and Bishop to tell me what is proper and what is not proper.

When our Bishop makes a pronouncement about such things, my parish takes great care to make sure that all of us know about it. They publish the Bishop’s admonition in the Church bulletin and sometimes they will send out a letter to all parishioners.

I don’t think I should rely on fellow parishioners to tell me the “correct” behavior because they don’t have the teaching authority of the clergy. I am certainly interested in the opinions of my fellow Catholic Christians, but I would never take their word as my authority.

This Forum is a useful place to get opinions about certain behaviors, but I think that we need to make sure that any pronouncements of right vs. wrong behavior have links to documents that are approved by the Church, e.g., the Bible, the Catechism. And even then, before I changed any of my “behaviors,” I would talk to my priest first and ask him for direction.

 

[Sarabande]

The thing is in many similar threads such as this, some people have assumed that just because someone raised a question, he/she must be going to mass and look for things wrong in other person. It is not the main issue. It is dead wrong and does not make this forum as it is intended to be. We are here to discuss whether it is something in some rules of the Church or not…Next time, I would be extra careful raising a question on this forum. Man, I didn’t know what I would’ve got into.

Keep raising the questions. It gets people to think, leading them to dig deeper into why they do things or have specific beliefs. I mean, I honestly didn’t think it was a big deal to worry about, originally, even if I didn’t do the arm relaxing thing myself. But it did make me think. So, thanks for that!!!

 

[Walking_Home]

There isn’t any admonishment against cartwheels or picking your nose either, just for the record. Common sense goes a long way in the absence of rigid rules, doesn’t it?

---

True–there is no directive that says we cannot do cartwheels and as far as I know—my bishop has not spoken on the licitness of cartwheels—so it comes down to common sense.

 

[paramedicgirl]

---

True–there is no directive that says we cannot do cartwheels and as far as I know—my bishop has not spoken on the licitness of cartwheels—so it comes down to common sense.

You mean if a bishop is silent on an issue that means he approves of it???

 

[Walking_Home]

You mean if a bishop is silent on an issue that means he approves of it???

---

I guess it would depend on the meaning someone is willing to apply to “silence”.

 

[paramedicgirl]

---

I guess it would depend on the meaning someone is willing to apply to “silence”.

There has been quite a bit of talk here that if the bishop hasn’t said not to do __________, (fill in the blank) then he approves of it.

I guess our bishop approves of all kinds of things that no one ever dreamed of.:whacky:

 

[KathleenElsie]

There has been quite a bit of talk here that if the bishop hasn’t said not to do __________, (fill in the blank) then he approves of it.

I guess our bishop approves of all kinds of things that no one ever dreamed of.:whacky:

Yep. Seems like ice skating (our priest kept it cold enough to ice up so people would not come in tank tops), roller skates or those new healies, playing a tune on your I-pod, and other discourteous actions are ok since the CCofC or Bishop has not banned it.

As I have said many times before commonsense and manners just don’t seem to be important any longer.

 

[Annc]

Actually, Annc, I pay very close attention to what my priests and bishop teach about Mass behaviors, and I do what they say. If they make no pronouncement about a behavior/gesture/etc., then I assume that there is no Church directive.

I came from an evangelical Protestant background (over 40 years), where I was supposedly “free” to think for myself and make decisions about what is appropriate and inappropriate. (As I have mentioned, there were unwritten “rules” that all of us were expected to obey, or our Christianity was called into question, so I don’t think we were really “free” at all.).

Because of this “free” background, I try to be very, very careful about obeying the teachings of the Bishop and my priests when it comes to Mass behaviors. I was not raised Catholic–far from it–so I have no “background,” no memories of how things used to be back before Vatican II, no training by nuns or Catholic relatives.

All I know is what I am told by the men–my bishop and my priests–that I trust because I believe that their authority comes from Jesus Christ Himself.

I would never make up my own mind about these things. Maybe it sounds robotic, but I don’t trust myself. I do trust Jesus and His Church leaders.

I certainly believe in thinking for myself when it comes to sinful actions; e.g., if a priest ever approached me sexually, I would run away and report him.

But when it comes to Mass behaviors, positions, postures, gestures, etc., I depend on my priests and Bishop to tell me what is proper and what is not proper.

When our Bishop makes a pronouncement about such things, my parish takes great care to make sure that all of us know about it. They publish the Bishop’s admonition in the Church bulletin and sometimes they will send out a letter to all parishioners.

I don’t think I should rely on fellow parishioners to tell me the “correct” behavior because they don’t have the teaching authority of the clergy. I am certainly interested in the opinions of my fellow Catholic Christians, but I would never take their word as my authority.

This Forum is a useful place to get opinions about certain behaviors, but I think that we need to make sure that any pronouncements of right vs. wrong behavior have links to documents that are approved by the Church, e.g., the Bible, the Catechism. And even then, before I changed any of my “behaviors,” I would talk to my priest first and ask him for direction.

Cat,

Fair enough…I think I know what you are saying. I am a cradle Catholic and many things are automatic for me or I just know them as though I was born knowing them (thank God for the nuns and my mother). To be honest, I haven’t heard very much about these issues regarding posture since the pronouncement a few years back regarding bowing for the 2 lines in the Nicene Creed and standing at a certain point. In the parishes we have attended the last 7 years, posture and etiquette were not mentioned but then again we were in conservative/traditional parishes where it wasn’t necessary.

BTW 3 of the biggest distractions and perpetrators of horrendous behavior at Mass belong to me, my kids. I cut people a lot more slack than you might think, and don’t give as much thought to it as I have today because as has been said, I can’t judge someone’s heart. Most people I know that are concerned about these things don’t judge as harshly (or at all) as you might think either. We watch our own behavior more than anyone else’s.

I think you are on the right track and I admire your effort to do the right thing.

God Bless.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Yep. Seems like ice skating (our priest kept it cold enough to ice up so people would not come in tank tops), roller skates or those new healies, playing a tune on your I-pod, and other discourteous actions are ok since the CCofC or Bishop has not banned it.

As I have said many times before commonsense and manners just don’t seem to be important any longer.

Kathleen! Liturgical ice skating??? What a novel idea! No, no, our bishop has definitely not banned that.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Kathleen! Liturgical ice skating??? What a novel idea! No, no, our bishop has definitely not banned that.

In Canada it just might be an ides. How about ice hockey Mass. (you know I am just kidding ) But then again it is not specifically banned is it?

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by KathleenElsie
Yep. Seems like ice skating (our priest kept it cold enough to ice up so people would not come in tank tops), roller skates or those new healies, playing a tune on your I-pod, and other discourteous actions are ok since the CCofC or Bishop has not banned it.

As I have said many times before commonsense and manners just don’t seem to be important any longer.

Kathleen! Liturgical ice skating??? What a novel idea! No, no, our bishop has definitely not banned that.

---

Does that mean we will be seeing Liturgical ice skating at some pt. on Youtube.–

 

[chicago]

For example, the correct way to fold the hands is with the right thumb over the left thumb. So I always pray the “correct” way.

WHAT?!

Sheesh, I just folded my hands to see what was instinctive. I put left thumb over right. Right over left feels awkward. Here’s hoping the liturgy police don’t come chasing after me for inappropriate prayer positions.

My RCIA instructors DID show us documentation about the thumb thing and the Our Father positions.)

There’s DOCUMENTATION for the thumb thing? rofl

You know, seriously, I’m sure it has some sort of pious devotional meaning, but this really is taking things too far if people are insisting upon proper positioning of thumbs.

One of the posters mentioned that her priest asked her husband to stop putting his arm over the pew back. IF my priest(s) asked us to stop doing something or to start doing something, I would comply because the priests are given their authority over us by the Bishop who receives his authority from Jesus.

You know what… it isn’t an authority question here. It is a personal pecadillo of the priest’s personality. While his concern should be respected and considered, he also may just need to “get over it!”

I imagine that most of us involved in this thread will probably sit perfectly straight, eyes forward, feet on the ground, hands folded in our laps–at least this weekend!

No, no. no. Your hands belong one on each leg of the lap, just like the priest who trained us altar boys taught. Hands folded on your lap could lead to sexual perversion or something. Have to keep them isolated.