Having a problem believing in Hell

[Spock]

It is not God’s fault what we do with the free will that he has given us.

Yes, it is. The ultimate responsibility is always with God.

If we choose to spend eternity seperated from him, that is our choice.

The word “choose” is inapplicable here. In order to make a real choice one must be presented with the options. I cannot “choose” to be with God or to be separated from God, since it is not clear whether God exists at all. And I have no information what should I do if I want to be with God. There are too many unknowns to make a “choice”.

 

[You]

Yes, it is. The ultimate responsibility is always with God.

It shows us how serious is the responsibility of being free to act. We can choose to do good every time, in doing good we cooperate with His will which is always good; in choosing bad we go against His good will for us, and responsibility lies with us.

The word “choose” is inapplicable here. In order to make a real choice one must be presented with the options. I cannot “choose” to be with God or to be separated from God, since it is not clear whether God exists at all. And I have no information what should I do if I want to be with God. There are too many unknowns to make a “choice”.

All the information you need is already here. You have just been taught to distrust for some reason. If I say Spock, lets go to Paris you’re going to say what Paris, I’ve never seen, I’ve never been there. If everyone operated on those principles in everything in life nothing would ever get done. One must trust and take the first steps there and see how you go.

 

[Spock]

It shows us how serious is the responsibility of being free to act. We can choose to do good every time, in doing good we cooperate with His will which is always good; in choosing bad we go against His good will for us, and responsibility lies with us.

This is called “whitewashing”. God is responsible for our freely made bad decision because he knowingly and deliberately created us. God cannot “hide” behind some “but I did not know it”, or behind “but that was not what I intented”. The answer is: “you knew it, and you still did it. so own up to it”.

Here is an allegory: “you lift up a heavy stone, and release it over the head of someone”. As soon as you release it, gravity will take over. You did not hit the person’s head, you “outsourced” the deed to gravity. But the ultimate responsibility is still yours. You deliberately lifted the stone, you deliberately released the stone, so you are responsible for the action of the stone.

All the information you need is already here.

I don’t agree. The only “information” I see comes from some old book, an institution which claims to be sole authority to interpret that book and a bunch of people who trust that book and the authority.

You have just been taught to distrust for some reason. If I say Spock, lets go to Paris you’re going to say what Paris, I’ve never seen, I’ve never been there. If everyone operated on those principles in everything in life nothing would ever get done. One must trust and take the first steps there and see how you go.

Trust is good. To start from the position of trust is good. As long as the advice is logical and reasonable, it is good to keep on trusting. As long as the advice can be verified, and the result is in accordance with the advice, it is fine to keep on trusting. The buzzwords here are “logical” and “reasonable” and “verifyable”. None of these apply to the church. Its “advice” is illogical, it is unreasonable and it cannot be verified. The “trust” you speak of is just a euphemism for “blind faith”.

 

[vz71]

The word “choose” is inapplicable here. In order to make a real choice one must be presented with the options. I cannot “choose” to be with God or to be separated from God, since it is not clear whether God exists at all. And I have no information what should I do if I want to be with God. There are too many unknowns to make a “choice”.

Now wait a second here.
I am addressing the issue you have raised concerning hell.
You brought the issue up.
Now you wish to argue the non-existence of it all.
As soon as you opened up the issue with how people get to hell

Therefore it is God’s fault that he created the sinners, and instead of taking responsibility for that, he tortures all those sinners for eternity.

You took on the fact of hell and God.

 

[You]

This is called “whitewashing”. God is responsible for our freely made bad decision because he knowingly and deliberately created us. God cannot “hide” behind some “but I did not know it”, or behind “but that was not what I intented”. The answer is: “you knew it, and you still did it. so own up to it”.

You know the difference between right and wrong, Spock, you feel it in your waters… be responsible.

Here is an allegory: “you lift up a heavy stone, and release it over the head of someone”. As soon as you release it, gravity will take over. You did not hit the person’s head, you “outsourced” the deed to gravity. But the ultimate responsibility is still yours. You deliberately lifted the stone, you deliberately released the stone, so you are responsible for the action of the stone.

Free will does not condemn you to death. It gives you the responsibility and the power to choose Life.

I don’t agree. The only “information” I see comes from some old book, an institution which claims to be sole authority to interpret that book and a bunch of people who trust that book and the authority.

Don’t forget that their God is the Living God and as He lives He can be approached also.

Spock:

Trust is good. To start from the position of trust is good. As long as the advice is logical and reasonable, it is good to keep on trusting. As long as the advice can be verified, and the result is in accordance with the advice, it is fine to keep on trusting. The buzzwords here are “logical” and “reasonable” and “verifyable”. None of these apply to the church. Its “advice” is illogical, it is unreasonable and it cannot be verified. The “trust” you speak of is just a euphemism for “blind faith”.

The only way of verifying this is by prayer; those are the first steps in trust you must take. For many people this is just too difficult to do.

 

[Spock]

Now wait a second here.
I am addressing the issue you have raised concerning hell.
You brought the issue up.
Now you wish to argue the non-existence of it all.
As soon as you opened up the issue with how people get to hell
You took on the fact of hell and God.

I went back to our exchanges, and I am confused. What does this have to do with anything we have been talking about?

To summarize: God is responsible for our acts, even if they come from free will. Consider the following scenario: You are holding a known murdering and raping psychopath in confinement. You decide to set him free, knowing full well that he will not change his ways. Indeed, he will commit some more rapes and murders. Can you use the defense, that you made nothing wrong, since it was not you who personally committed those rapes and murders? Your culpability lies in the fact that you made those rapes and murders possible by setting this dangerous criminal free. You are ultimately responsible for everything he commits.

 

[vz71]

I went back to our exchanges, and I am confused. What does this have to do with anything we have been talking about?

I believed quotes of your own posts would have explained that well. Perhaps I was mistaken.

You are arguing with how exactly people go to hell…then you are arguing against God…then you argue with hell…then you argue against God…etc.

It is difficult to keep up.

Why are you arguing against any decsion made by God if you do not believe in his existence?

 

[fide]

… The “trust” you speak of is just a euphemism for “blind faith”.

It is not faith that is blind. It is faithlessness that is blind.

Jn 9:39 Then Jesus said, “I came into this world for judgment, so that those who do not see might see, and those who do see might become blind.”
40 Some of the Pharisees who were with him heard this and said to him, “Surely we are not also blind, are we?”
41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you are saying, ‘We see,’ so your sin remains.

 

[Spock]

You are arguing with how exactly people go to hell…then you are arguing against God…then you argue with hell…then you argue against God…etc.

Why are you arguing against any decsion made by God if you do not believe in his existence?

When I argue against God, I argue against what the believers say about God. If I would believe in God, then yes, I would argue against God. If God would grant my wish and would accept my invitation to my house, then I would argue with God.

 

[vz71]

When I argue against God, I argue against what the believers say about God. If I would believe in God, then yes, I would argue against God. If God would grant my wish and would accept my invitation to my house, then I would argue with God.

OK, then…onward.

The word “choose” is inapplicable here. In order to make a real choice one must be presented with the options. I cannot “choose” to be with God or to be separated from God, since it is not clear whether God exists at all. And I have no information what should I do if I want to be with God. There are too many unknowns to make a “choice”.

Wether you realize it or not, you are still made in the image of God and his laws are still written in your heart.
And as such, belief or no belief, your actions are a decision one way or the other.
And the summation of these actions will dictate the final decision before God.

Some cry unfair because they do not have enough information to form an answer consciously. But they do not realize the imprint of God’s laws on their heart provides enough information to make the decision.

 

[PAboy57]

When I argue against God, I argue against what the believers say about God. If I would believe in God, then yes, I would argue against God. If God would grant my wish and would accept my invitation to my house, then I would argue with God.

Hey Spock,

You have a good handle on us believers and our God. Is there a post by any chance where you have identified what you believe in, or personal creed, or list of likes and dislikes???

That way I’ll have some reference point to assist me in responding. Because right now I just have the feeling you deny everything and are waiting for God to stop by your place. Also be careful what you wish for – as human seeing God’s face may bring instant death.

Thanks

 

[crazzeto]

There are many terrific responses already, but I just wanted to add my own viewpoint. First I’ll start with the bad,

I think it’s very possible (even highly likely) that a lot more people are going to hell than we would care to admit or believe. God is Mercyfull yes… But he is still just, and while I don’t and can’t know what the judgment will be for anyone, I have a feeling that justice will demand many in todays pluralistic, sexually revolutionized culture suffer the torments of hell.

Now that I have the negative out of the way, lets be a little more positive. God is just, but his mercy does win out over his justice. I fully beleive he will give each of us every oppertunity, perhaps even extrodenary oppertunity beyone our ability to know or comprehend, to repent and be saved. The problem is, as the bible states, when you choose sin you become a slave to it.

When we choose contraception, particularly as a faithful Catholic when we know it’s wrong, we become a slave to it. In many cases, even to the point of dening Christ directly in order to keep our sinful ways. So it is best to start resisting the devil and the world now, so that you can take full effective advantage of every chance the Lord will give you to accept his sacraficial blood and be saved.

God bless,

 

[PAboy57]

There are many terrific responses already, but I just wanted to add my own viewpoint. First I’ll start with the bad,

I think it’s very possible (even highly likely) that a lot more people are going to hell than we would care to admit or believe. God is Mercyfull yes… But he is still just, and while I don’t and can’t know what the judgment will be for anyone, I have a feeling that justice will demand many in todays pluralistic, sexually revolutionized culture suffer the torments of hell.

Now that I have the negative out of the way, lets be a little more positive. God is just, but his mercy does win out over his justice. I fully beleive he will give each of us every oppertunity, perhaps even extrodenary oppertunity beyone our ability to know or comprehend, to repent and be saved. The problem is, as the bible states, when you choose sin you become a slave to it.

When we choose contraception, particularly as a faithful Catholic when we know it’s wrong, we become a slave to it. In many cases, even to the point of dening Christ directly in order to keep our sinful ways. So it is best to start resisting the devil and the world now, so that you can take full effective advantage of every chance the Lord will give you to accept his sacraficial blood and be saved.

God bless,

I strongly agree with your bad assessment. My perception is things are really getting ugly out there and within many people’s hearts. I can’t even watch 3/4 of the stuff I used to watch on TV because it is just dirty to me now. Some (I won’t bother to put a number to it) “Catholics” subscribe to only the parts they want to believe in. I know of close friends and family that miss Mass and do other things and don’t bother to go to confession and then receive communion. I actually try to avoid them because I tried to gently reason and they were offended. I now try to surround myself with as many Catholics as possible.

I do tremble as the bible says because I don’t want to spend eternity away from God. Maybe I’m taking some of this to seriously but I tend not to think so. The confession lines are pretty short these days as I go on a regular basis. That confirms my thoughts above that things are lax to say the least.

My perception is that when we die or Jesus comes back the mercy period is pretty much over. I just felt I couldn’t live up to the faith so I just quit participating for many years. Now that I’m back I do my best to live as a true Catholic. So many things I just did and left God out of the equation. I didn’t give Him a chance. I do hope you are right about mercy.

the Sacraments and Prayer are the only way to stay right with God. We have been given many gifts to ensure eternal life and we should use them. It may ease the trembling.

God Bless

 

[slywakka250]

Some cry unfair because they do not have enough information to form an answer consciously. But they do not realize the imprint of God’s laws on their heart provides enough information to make the decision.

It really comes down to this. If the truth really is known in our hearts, then we have no excuse.

But how can I read my heart? my heart seems to tell me all sorts of “truths” all sorts of “moralities” it seems to be constantly shifting. I perceive no rock, no fixed truth in my heart. Where is it?? How can you claim that we all know it in our hearts. Where is the evidence for this???

 

[Spock]

Wether you realize it or not, you are still made in the image of God and his laws are still written in your heart.
And as such, belief or no belief, your actions are a decision one way or the other.
And the summation of these actions will dictate the final decision before God.

Some cry unfair because they do not have enough information to form an answer consciously. But they do not realize the imprint of God’s laws on their heart provides enough information to make the decision.

I explained it all, and don’t care to repeat it. Any poetic allegory about our heart is nonsense.

 

[Spock]

You have a good handle on us believers and our God. Is there a post by any chance where you have identified what you believe in, or personal creed, or list of likes and dislikes???

No, I don’t have anything like that. You are the first one who showed interest like this, and I think that such a list might not be interesting. And it would be too long anyhow.

That way I’ll have some reference point to assist me in responding. Because right now I just have the feeling you deny everything and are waiting for God to stop by your place. Also be careful what you wish for – as human seeing God’s face may bring instant death.

I am willing to risk it. I will have to die eventually, and dying from God’s visit does not seem to be the worst reason. But I don’t think that such a visit would have such dire consequences. According to the Bible mythology Adam and Eve could face God, and they did not die.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Pieman

First of all, you have to know it’s a mortal sin - so a liberal who never read up on Catholic moral theology who masturbates wouldn’t probably go to hell for that - perhaps something else, but not that.

Uh, liberal Catholics don’t know masturbation is a mortal sin? Well, that figures. Many of them also dispute that homosexuality or atheism is a mortal sin.

 

[slywakka250]

Pieman

First of all, you have to know it’s a mortal sin - so a liberal who never read up on Catholic moral theology who masturbates wouldn’t probably go to hell for that - perhaps something else, but not that.

Uh, liberal Catholics don’t know masturbation is a mortal sin? Well, that figures. Many of them also dispute that homosexuality or atheism is a mortal sin.

There is no way this type of ignorance excuses you from sin. If that were the case, we should never tell anybody that a sin is mortal, if there is a chance they will continue the sin anyway. Not knowing something is sinful, except in rare circumstances, is not going to cut it i’m afraid.

 

[PAboy57]

I am willing to risk it. I will have to die eventually, and dying from God’s visit does not seem to be the worst reason. But I don’t think that such a visit would have such dire consequences. According to the Bible mythology Adam and Eve could face God, and they did not die.

I don’t recall A & E seeing but talking with God. Maybe you can show me. This is what I remembered reading:

Exodus 33:
18 Moses said, “Then let me see your Glory.”
19 And He said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and proclaim the name of Yahweh before you. For I am gracious to whom I want to be gracious and I am merciful to whom I want to be merciful.”
**20 Then Yahweh said, “You cannot see my face because man cannot see me and live.”**21 And he added, “See this place near me; you shall stand on the rock
22 and when my Glory passes I will put you in a hollow of the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by.
23 Then I will take away my hand and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”

But then I guess talking would be ok.

Sorry to hear no creed or belief system is available. Since you have taken so much time to read about our beliefs, I was really looking forward to learning what was important to you.

Thanks

 

[crazzeto]

I don’t recall A & E seeing but talking with God. Maybe you can show me. This is what I remembered reading:

Exodus 33:
18 Moses said, “Then let me see your Glory.”
19 And He said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and proclaim the name of Yahweh before you. For I am gracious to whom I want to be gracious and I am merciful to whom I want to be merciful.”
**20 Then Yahweh said, “You cannot see my face because man cannot see me and live.”**21 And he added, “See this place near me; you shall stand on the rock
22 and when my Glory passes I will put you in a hollow of the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by.
23 Then I will take away my hand and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.”

But then I guess talking would be ok.

Sorry to hear no creed or belief system is available. Since you have taken so much time to read about our beliefs, I was really looking forward to learning what was important to you.

Thanks

Before the fall man could be in the presense of God, after the restoration we can again be in the presense of God.

God bless,