Having a problem believing in Hell

[Spock]

And what happens when God says you are wrong? What happens when he says you have the Old Covenant and the people Israel to turn to as an elder brother? What happens when God says his teachings are faithfully contained in scripture and tradition? What then? When God says it is time for you to repent, and change and make him, not you the center of your existance?

We shall cross that bridge when we reach it.

 

[Spock]

with due respect to PAboy, there is no such thing as pure, blind faith. Faith is essentially related to seeking understanding, to seeing - if it is purely blind, it is not faith.

Cute pun.

 

[Spock]

Pretty soon you may be a chosen one.

One can only hope.

Luke Chapter 18:
1 Jesus told them a parable to show them that they should pray continually and not lose heart.
2 He said, “In a certain town there was a judge who neither feared God nor people.
3 In the same town was a widow who kept coming to him, saying: ‘Defend my rights against my opponent.’
4 For a time he refused, but finally he thought: 'Even though I neither fear God nor care about people,
5 this widow bothers me so much I will see that she gets justice; then she will stop coming and wearing me out.”
6 And Jesus explained, “Listen to what the evil judge says.
**7 Will God not do justice for his chosen ones who cry to him day and night even if he delays in answering them?
8 I tell you, he will speedily do them justice. **Yet, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”

Nice quote. But it is a parable. How do I understand it? Does it mean that God is like the “evil judge”, who needs constant nagging?

 

[vz71]

Nice quote. But it is a parable. How do I understand it? Does it mean that God is like the “evil judge”, who needs constant nagging?

You might.

But we both know that is not the meaning intended and usage in that manner would be a deliberate mishandling of the scripture.

Which leads back a few posts, is this an honest search for answers?
Is your open invitation for God really an honest one?

I know you have stated it is an honest request.
So you may want to make certain your actions do not contradict that.

 

[crazzeto]

We shall cross that bridge when we reach it.

And I do believe this is exactly why God won’t entertain you.

[19] There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. [20] And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,

[21] Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. [22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. [23] And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: [24] And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. [25] And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

*[22] “Abraham’s bosom”… The place of rest, where the souls of the saints resided, till Christ had opened heaven by his death. *

[26] And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. [27] And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren, [28] That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. [29] And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. [30] But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.

[31] And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

 

[Betterave]

But we both know that is not the meaning intended and usage in that manner would be a deliberate mishandling of the scripture.

Yes, we all know that…

Which leads back a few posts, is this an honest search for answers?
Is your open invitation for God really an honest one?

And that is the real question I’m sure most of us have who dialogue with Spock…

I know you have stated it is an honest request.
So you may want to make certain your actions do not contradict that.

…because indeed, actions (duplicitous speech acts) speak louder than words (bland verbal assurances of sincerity/open-mindedness).

 

[Spock]

And I do believe this is exactly why God won’t entertain you.

Your beliefs are yours.

[31] And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

It is funny that the author wishes to speak authoritatively about “everyone”. It sure takes some “cheek” to do that.

 

[crazzeto]

Your beliefs are yours.

It is funny that the author wishes to speak authoritatively about “everyone”. It sure takes some “cheek” to do that.

Exactly my point, you don’t beleive in God and it’s obvious that even if Christ would appear before your crusified miraculasly as he did for Mother Teresa of Calcutta and Mother Mariana it wouldn’t really change your mind. This is what Christ, God was saying… You would blow it off, say whatever… You would say “it really takes some cheek for you (God) to tell me there’s anything wrong with Homosexuality” etc…

Thus your expectations that God is going to waste his time on you are in vein.

 

[Spock]

Exactly my point, you don’t beleive in God and it’s obvious that even if Christ would appear before your crusified miraculasly as he did for Mother Teresa of Calcutta and Mother Mariana it wouldn’t really change your mind. This is what Christ, God was saying…

No, it is some human saying something.

Thus your expectations that God is going to waste his time on you are in vein.

Just like here. You think you speak for God.

 

[crazzeto]

No, it is some human saying something.

Just like here. You think you speak for God.

1. I would never presume to speak for God, rather I will only really present the Catechisis of the Church (who does speak for God) and the source documentation for you (scripture/tradition/various catechisims). These speak for God very eloquantly, personally… I’m just not that good.
2. I hope you don’t mind if I pray for you, it does always break my heart to see someone so lost.

 

[rturner76]

My brother wrote a thesis on Universal Salvation which was accepted at St John’s in Collegeville MN. This is an interesting subject for me.

Are we saved because we ask to be saved? As in there is something we need to do before we are allowed to receive salvation?

                                 or:

Is salvation a gift given to us by God through Jesus suffering at the cross. As in Grace. You receive Grace because God has decided to give grace thgough his son for all the world.
so:

Are we saved because we are baptized, go to RCIA class, and confess?
Are we saved purly by the Grace of God?
I don’t believe it is both. Grace is something being given with no restrictions even if you don’t deserve it. You don’t need to ask for it
Repenting is being saved by your own action. Would that not question the beatuy of our grace? Would Jesus need to be sacrificed if we can claim our redemption through repentance?

Personaly I believe we are saved because we have been saved by the blood of the Lamb. It’s already done, the price had already been paid. Weather we accept it or not, grace has been given. Not earned.

Please correct me with scripture.

 

[PAboy57]

My brother wrote a thesis on Universal Salvation which was accepted at St John’s in Collegeville MN. This is an interesting subject for me.

Personaly I believe we are saved because we have been saved by the blood of the Lamb. It’s already done, the price had already been paid. Weather we accept it or not, grace has been given. Not earned.

Please correct me with scripture.

Just so we understand your position. We are all saved and going to heaven regardless of our beliefs and how we live our life??? Unearned grace is given to everyone period???

 

[rturner76]

That is the basis of the thesis. The wages of sin is death. Jesus has paid that price for humanity and it’s already done.

So yes, it would mean everyone goes to God in the afterlife. I know it’s too much for most people.

The thesis was accepted by the graduate school of theology panel which also consisted of members of the Bennedictine Monastary clergy that runs the College. It was very difficult to get it past them.

What did it was a few undeniable facts that mke it POSSIBLE not that it’s TRUE.

1. God is ALL powerful> He can do ANYTHING
2. God wants to save mankind
3. Having the ability and the desire to save everyone. What can stop him?

 

[davidv]

That is the basis of the thesis. The wages of sin is death. Jesus has paid that price for humanity and it’s already done.

So yes, it would mean everyone goes to God in the afterlife. I know it’s too much for most people.

The thesis was accepted by the graduate school of theology panel which also consisted of members of the Bennedictine Monastary clergy that runs the College. It was very difficult to get it past them.

What did it was a few undeniable facts that mke it POSSIBLE not that it’s TRUE.

1. God is ALL powerful> He can do ANYTHING
2. God wants to save mankind
3. Having the ability and the desire to save everyone. What can stop him?

Answer to 3): Our will to go against His. In other words, our unwillingness to love as He commands us to, stops us from accepting His invitation into heaven. Remember the wedding guest who was not in his wedding garment?

 

[Betterave]

Nice quote. But it is a parable. How do I understand it? Does it mean that God is like the “evil judge”, who needs constant nagging?

I know what you mean. I think them parables can be quite puzzling. But strangely enough, I think that might be the point: there’s something worthwhile about being puzzled and forced to think. Sorry if it annoys you, but that’s what we’ve got! May God bless you and enlighten you, brother (if He exists ).

 

[PAboy57]

That is the basis of the thesis. The wages of sin is death. Jesus has paid that price for humanity and it’s already done.

So yes, it would mean everyone goes to God in the afterlife. I know it’s too much for most people.

The thesis was accepted by the graduate school of theology panel which also consisted of members of the Bennedictine Monastary clergy that runs the College. It was very difficult to get it past them.

What did it was a few undeniable facts that mke it POSSIBLE not that it’s TRUE.

1. God is ALL powerful> He can do ANYTHING
2. God wants to save mankind
3. Having the ability and the desire to save everyone. What can stop him?

I will agree that no one can stop Him. If God ends up saving everyone then He has lied to us about obeying His commandments. It would suck to be Catholic in this scenario .

I will stick to my faith and God not lying to us.

 

[PAboy57]

One can only hope.

Nice quote. But it is a parable. How do I understand it? Does it mean that God is like the “evil judge”, who needs constant nagging?

Maybe only the chosen ones are able to understand

The chosen ones are heard by God. You have some time left.

 

[Spock]

1. I would never presume to speak for God, rather I will only really present the Catechisis of the Church (who does speak for God) and the source documentation for you (scripture/tradition/various catechisims). These speak for God very eloquantly, personally… I’m just not that good.

The catholic church only “claims” to speak for God. Unsubstantiated claims do not mean much to me.

1. I hope you don’t mind if I pray for you, it does always break my heart to see someone so lost.

I appreciate it very much. Thank you for your concern.

 

[Spock]

I know what you mean. I think them parables can be quite puzzling. But strangely enough, I think that might be the point: there’s something worthwhile about being puzzled and forced to think. Sorry if it annoys you, but that’s what we’ve got!

Oh, no, it does not annoy me at all. I am simply asking for clarification. What does this particular parable mean? Nothing wrong with asking, I hope.

May God bless you and enlighten you, brother (if He exists ).

Thank you for your kind wish.

 

[Spock]

Maybe only the chosen ones are able to understand

Maybe. That is why I am asking. Some of you might be a “chosen one”.

The chosen ones are heard by God. You have some time left.

I cannot choose to become a “chosen one”. That is something only God can do. If he chooses not to make me a “chosen one”, then I am SOL (sorry, I am not allowed to spell out the abbreviation).