Having a problem believing in Hell

[rturner76]

For the wages of sin is death, but the **free gift of God is eternal life **in Christ Jesus our Lord.

—Romans 6:23

**For by grace you have been saved **through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast

—Ephesians 2:8-9

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him,** having forgiven us all our trespasses**, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

—Colossians 2:13-14

For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.

—1 Thessalonians 5:9-10

These verses indicate the price has already been paid with Jesus’ blood. Weather you believe it or not. I admit, I am picking the verses that point to what I believe.

My question then becomes: even if I am wrong (I’m no scholar, I just want to believe God saves everyone). Is it a sin or is it a mortal sin to believe as I do? Can I be condeming myself through my view of God’s word?

This is one of the handfull of things that has kept me from a full conversion to Catholisism.

 

[JRPO]

Hello,

As the title states, I’m having a huge problem believing that there is a Hell, or at least that certain things the Church considers mortal sins would land you there. The specific “sins” have all been said before; masturbation, apostasy, birth control, missing one Mass. I started to look around at my family and friends. My older brothers and their wives, who have used birth control for years. My atheistic neighbor who is a wonderful family man and helps out around the block whenever he’s asked. My formerly-Catholic-who-turned-evangelical-aunt who is probably the warmest and kindest person I’ve ever known. Catholic doctrine demands that I believe that all these people would go to Hell if they died suddenly right now.

I used to think that Hell was just for murderers and such. Then I got older and learned all the Catholic prohibitions. Really turned me off. How in God’s name can you equate rape or murder with masturbation?

I’ve heard the counter to this; that it’s all God’s law, which has been clearly handed down and taught through the ages and we’re given the choice and all that. But, sorry, I just can’t see it. I can’t see my brother sent to Hell for birth control usage while Pol-Pot (let’s say he made a deathbed repentance/conversion) will eventually make it to Heaven. That makes zero sense.

I haven’t read all the posts there is just too many of them so sorry if i repeat anything that has been said.
All these people you mention in your post and you and me are going to have to do a lot of work if all the souls in heaven fully believe in the Catholic Church. As I understand it we can’t go to heaven unless we become fully Catholic in every way. All the people in heaven are Catholic.
Thats not saying only Catholics go to heaven but if Jesus meant what he said and if him dying on the cross meant anything then we’re all going to have to be fully Catholic to est in heaven one day. We’re taking a very big risk if we don’t live out the Catholic faith fully and completely aren’t we. Thats a big risk to take.

 

[PAboy57]

Maybe. That is why I am asking. Some of you might be a “chosen one”.

I cannot choose to become a “chosen one”. That is something only God can do. If he chooses not to make me a “chosen one”, then I am SOL (sorry, I am not allowed to spell out the abbreviation).

Hey Spock,

If it’s not to personal to ask – were you ever baptized?

I acknowledge that God is a part of everything that happens but we have to do some of the work also. Something prevents you from choosing God.

“There are two ways to reach the heart of God. The first is the humility of true contrition. This leads a person to God’s heart and to a spiritual dialogue. The second way is the contemplation of my Son’s passion. This removes the hardness of the human heart and makes a person run toward God’s heart with joy.” St. Bridget - Book 4: Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, the Papacy

St. Bridget of Sweden – also known as Birgitta. born 1303 - died 1373. Her revelations were approved by the Church for reading by the faithful. No dogma here.

catholic-saints.net/saints/st-bridget/st-bridget-book5.php

I found this an interesting read when I had so many questions. I went right to the portion of the revelations where the “bad” monk was permitted to ask Jesus, now judge, many questions. Let’s just say the answers got my attention. If it is all made up it at least required an intelligent person to offer the fantasy. I took it as truth coming from St. Bridget and don’t believe she did any fabrication. She’s holy and that was OK for me.

Take care Spock.

 

[Spock]

If it’s not to personal to ask – were you ever baptized?

No problem at all. Yes, I was. Not catholic, but still.

I acknowledge that God is a part of everything that happens but we have to do some of the work also. Something prevents you from choosing God.

I did believe that God exists, for about 25 years. Then I realized that there is no evidence for this belief, and it just went away. I did not choose to lose that belief, it simply happened.

 

[PAboy57]

No problem at all. Yes, I was. Not catholic, but still.

I did believe that God exists, for about 25 years. Then I realized that there is no evidence for this belief, and it just went away. I did not choose to lose that belief, it simply happened.

I really don’t believe that anyone on this site can say anything that will immediately bring back belief in God. Through all of the discussions I would hope that some spark ignites in you and turns you in another direction. Only through your own personal search will you ever get back what became lost. You have to want that of course.

Because us Catholics and so many other Christians do believe in God we pray for those that don’t believe. I’m sure the Holy Spirit, the Lord the giver of life, has you on a list – as folks said they will pray for you – so I’ll leave it up to Him. I’ll pray too for everyone that does not believe. The reason for me praying is so you avoid my concept of what happens after we die. I don’t want anyone to go to a bad place for eternity.

I believe this life has so many struggles that we have to be destined for something better if we obey the Catholic Church in my case. For me, without that confidence, this life isn’t worth it. If all that St. Paul said isn’t true then we have been done a huge injustice. He also indicated that. If ending up as fertilizer is reality then this life is a cruel joke for so many.

God Bless.

 

[Spock]

I really don’t believe that anyone on this site can say anything that will immediately bring back belief in God.

Quite probably true. However, you and few others at least do not push me away any further. And that is a really big thing for me.

I believe this life has so many struggles that we have to be destined for something better if we obey the Catholic Church in my case. For me, without that confidence, this life isn’t worth it. If all that St. Paul said isn’t true then we have been done a huge injustice. He also indicated that. If ending up as fertilizer is reality then this life is a cruel joke for so many.

I know you think so. As for me, I feel disapponted to have been “granted” only a few measly decades of existence. I would love to live here much longer, as long as my body and mind work properly. But I am not disappointed that it will not happen. I try to achieve a limited “immortality” by leaving good memories behind.

 

[PAboy57]

Quite probably true. However, you and few others at least do not push me away any further. And that is a really big thing for me.

I know you think so. As for me, I feel disapponted to have been “granted” only a few measly decades of existence. I would love to live here much longer, as long as my body and mind work properly. But I am not disappointed that it will not happen. I try to achieve a limited “immortality” by leaving good memories behind.

We should not push people away. We may retire and leave it to the Holy Spirit. Those getting angry do not reflect the mission here as I understand it. Again it’s that seed planting. Better to back out of a discussion than turn ugly in any way. Charity above all and use words once in awhile according to some saints. If you have a problem believing in hell then we will just leave you with your thoughts and happiness.

Memories are always good. I too want to leave some but I want the eternal retirement home with peace and God’s love.

I think this thread is dead so peace to you. Watch out for that spark.

 

[Betterave]

Oh, no, it does not annoy me at all. I am simply asking for clarification. What does this particular parable mean? Nothing wrong with asking, I hope.

Nothing wrong at all. In doing so you’re just following the example set by Jesus’ disciples, so we can hardly stone you for that! Here’s another parable from Luke 11 that might help:

5 And he said to them: Which of you shall have a friend and shall go to him at midnight and shall say to him: Friend, lend me three loaves, 6 because a friend of mine has come off his journey to me and I have not what to set before him. 7 And he from within should answer and say: Trouble me not; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed. I cannot rise and give you. 8 Yet if he shall continue knocking, I say to you, although he will not rise and give him because he is his friend; yet, because of his importunity, he will rise and give him as many as he needs. 9 And I say to you: Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you. 10 For every one that asks receives: and he that seeks finds: and to him that knocks it shall be opened: 11 And which of you, if he ask his father bread, will he give him a stone? Or a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he reach him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father from heaven give the good Spirit to them that ask him?

It seems weird for Jesus to compare God the father to an evil judge. But it’s the use of an a fortiori, as in verse 13 above. I think there’s more you could say about it, but that’s probably the most simple first-pass way of understanding it.

Thank you for your kind wish.

And thank you for your asking genuine searching questions and responding to answers to those questions in a reasonable way that shows you’re actually listening and that you’re not just here to ignorantly rant about your opinions and ignore whatever criticisms anyone might have of your position. I wish more people here could get into that honest rational dialogue groove. IF our God is real, hopefully you realize that this kind of honest searching pleases him, and that is true even if it might be that your actual beliefs don’t happen to have gotten to the truth about Him yet.

 

[alongexpected]

Wow. I can’t believe how many responses this got.

Anyway, just wanted to say my final thought.

I really really hope everything ive been taught about catholicism was true and that I’ll be able to see my cocker spaniel again. I just really don’t think i ever will.

Of course believe and have faith if you want to, but please admit that, for someone who doesn’t, you’re asking them to make an insane leap of faith and throw virtually all logic out the window and think that you “beat the odds” and were lucky enough to have been born into the correct religion.

Please understand that’s why it’s so hard for us atheists to believe.

 

[Betterave]

Wow. I can’t believe how many responses this got.

Anyway, just wanted to say my final thought.

I really really hope everything ive been taught about catholicism was true and that I’ll be able to see my cocker spaniel again. I just really don’t think i ever will.

Of course believe and have faith if you want to, but please admit that, for someone who doesn’t, you’re asking them to make an insane leap of faith and throw virtually all logic out the window and think that you “beat the odds” and were lucky enough to have been born into the correct religion.

Please understand that’s why it’s so hard for us atheists to believe.

We understand - it’s because most of you are so hard of hearing!

 

[alongexpected]

We understand - it’s because most of you are so hard of hearing!

You do realize that basically every religion is competing for my belief. Nearly all have holy books/prophets/leaders/doctrines/traditions that contradict each other. Can’t you realize how we’re not inclined to believe one over the other?

 

[PAboy57]

You do realize that basically every religion is competing for my belief. Nearly all have holy books/prophets/leaders/doctrines/traditions that contradict each other. Can’t you realize how we’re not inclined to believe one over the other?

"The Jews then gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in doubt? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
Jesus answered, “I have already told you but you do not believe.”

• John 10,24-25

The good news wasn’t something, it was somebody – Jesus. Get to know Him who is life.

Peace on your journey.

 

[alongexpected]

"The Jews then gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in doubt? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
Jesus answered, “I have already told you but you do not believe.”

• John 10,24-25

The good news wasn’t something, it was somebody – Jesus. Get to know Him who is life.

Peace on your journey.

Thank you for well-wishes, really, but this is exactly what I’m talking about! Every religion could dig up quotes like that that “provide” evidence/proof of their true belief.

 

[rturner76]

For the wages of sin is death, but the **free gift of God is eternal life **in Christ Jesus our Lord.

—Romans 6:23

**For by grace you have been saved **through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast

—Ephesians 2:8-9

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him,** having forgiven us all our trespasses**, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

—Colossians 2:13-14

For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.

—1 Thessalonians 5:9-10

These verses indicate the price has already been paid with Jesus’ blood. Weather you believe it or not. I admit, I am picking the verses that point to what I believe.

My question then becomes: even if I am wrong (I’m no scholar, I just want to believe God saves everyone). Is it a sin or is it a mortal sin to believe as I do? Can I be condeming myself through my view of God’s word?

This is one of the handfull of things that has kept me from a full conversion to Catholisism.

 

[PAboy57]

These verses indicate the price has already been paid with Jesus’ blood. Weather you believe it or not. I admit, I am picking the verses that point to what I believe.

My question then becomes: even if I am wrong (I’m no scholar, I just want to believe God saves everyone). Is it a sin or is it a mortal sin to believe as I do? Can I be condeming myself through my view of God’s word?

This is one of the handfull of things that has kept me from a full conversion to Catholisism.

You are free to believe whatever you want to believe.
You do yourself a huge disservice by not considering scripture in its totality.
Picking out 2 sentences does not convey the entire thought or story.
Deceiving someone else – you may have to answer for that (if you believe that).

We are not here to judge you. Jesus Christ will determine your outcome.

As far as Catholics we rely upon Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of the Church. Everything wasn’t written down so that part becomes Tradition and the Church interprets. Otherwise there are millions of interpretations. Not good.

Best of luck on your journey.

 

[Spock]

Nothing wrong at all. In doing so you’re just following the example set by Jesus’ disciples, so we can hardly stone you for that! Here’s another parable from Luke 11 that might help:

5 And he said to them: Which of you shall have a friend and shall go to him at midnight and shall say to him: Friend, lend me three loaves, 6 because a friend of mine has come off his journey to me and I have not what to set before him. 7 And he from within should answer and say: Trouble me not; the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed. I cannot rise and give you. 8 Yet if he shall continue knocking, I say to you, although he will not rise and give him because he is his friend; yet, because of his importunity, he will rise and give him as many as he needs. 9 And I say to you: Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you. 10 For every one that asks receives: and he that seeks finds: and to him that knocks it shall be opened: 11 And which of you, if he ask his father bread, will he give him a stone? Or a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he reach him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father from heaven give the good Spirit to them that ask him?

It seems weird for Jesus to compare God the father to an evil judge. But it’s the use of an a fortiori, as in verse 13 above. I think there’s more you could say about it, but that’s probably the most simple first-pass way of understanding it.

It is a pretty good explanation. Without intending to pick a “fight” about it, there is something I wish to address. In both parables the persons who are asked for help are “reluctant” to give it. They both need several “proddings” before they are willing to help. Is this a proper description of God? Does God just play hard to catch?

Here is a another joke that came to my mind:

The cute, young hen is being chased by the rooster in the yard, with obvious intents. One of the elder hens asks her: “Why are you running? He will catch you anyhow, and besides, you want him to catch you.” The young hen answers: “Yes, but I am going run around a few more times, so he does not think I am just a whore.”

 

[Dark_Prince]

Everything christianity claims to be truth, are nothing but lies, if you want the truth, this you must read:
www.joyofsatan.org
www.exposingchristianity.com

 

[Betterave]

You do realize that basically every religion is competing for my belief. Nearly all have holy books/prophets/leaders/doctrines/traditions that contradict each other. Can’t you realize how we’re not inclined to believe one over the other?

I understand that that position makes sense as a pure outsider to religion. But no one is a pure outsider. My contention, which I invite you to consider, is that you are necessarily deceiving yourself insofar as you think of yourself in this way, as somehow who is detached or divorced from what is at stake in the real disagreements between religions.

 

[Betterave]

It is a pretty good explanation. Without intending to pick a “fight” about it, there is something I wish to address. In both parables the persons who are asked for help are “reluctant” to give it. They both need several “proddings” before they are willing to help. Is this a proper description of God? Does God just play hard to catch?

Well supposing He exists, what do you think?

Here is a another joke that came to my mind:

The cute, young hen is being chased by the rooster in the yard, with obvious intents. One of the elder hens asks her: “Why are you running? He will catch you anyhow, and besides, you want him to catch you.” The young hen answers: “Yes, but I am going run around a few more times, so he does not think I am just a whore.”

That may be a very apt joke, worth thinking about, both as it applies to God and as it applies to you.

Seriously, erotic tension can be a good and even holy thing (it can obviously also be purely animalistic - though we believe that the animal side too is God’s creation and can constitute a certain dim image of the divine nature).

 

[PAboy57]

Thank you for well-wishes, really, but this is exactly what I’m talking about! Every religion could dig up quotes like that that “provide” evidence/proof of their true belief.

I’ll consider that you are sitting on the fence right now and analyzing what people are saying to you. You look for that definitive response to end the struggle you experience. Please let me know if you disagree.

The Catholic Church offers you and everyone else a methodology that includes Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition (practices not worded in the Bible but communicated orally or what was the mindset of the particular period in time) and the Magesterium of the Church (the teaching body and what they believe is truth considering all the elements). Remember Saint John saying – 25 But Jesus did many other things; if all were written down, the world itself would not hold the books recording them (Gospel of John, Chapter 21, his very last statement). This is our belief in Sacred Tradition.

What I believe is there is no definitive answer. It come down to Faith because there simply is not physical proof available. We do not have the bodies of Jesus and Mary buried somewhere on Church property. We strongly believe they are in glorified bodies and in Heaven continuing to help us get through our earthly struggles. We do have, what we believe, are other saint bodies buried and/or on display. And some of those bodies are in wonderful condition which many believe to be the work of God helping us in our analysis to believe. That is and has been a topic for other threads.

Simply stated I believe the Catholic Church offers one more fullness of grace through the 7 Sacraments. I also believe that there are many wonderful Baptists, Methodists, etc that will also see the face of God because they lived a decent life and believed in Him. Just don’t get caught up in paralysis by analysis and never make a choice. I want you to have eternity with God.

God Bless