Having children while fearing hell

[redcatholic]

So that type of thinking doesn’t make sense for a few reasons.

1. God creates mankind and our souls. He, being omnipotent told us to go forth and multiply. So God, who died in a cross for the sins of His Children wants us to populate earth and of course heaven.
2. You are missing repentance and forgiveness. Yes, your children will sin. It is SUPER easy to confess and be absolved.
3. We have a duty to raise our children to not fornicate, not masturbate snd not sin. Teaching them how to be holy and if they fail, helping them reconcile to be holy again.

 

[Freddy]

Right, and I don’t really understand why.

Maybe because…

It is SUPER easy to confess and be absolved.

Maybe you can bring your kids up that way.

‘If I find out you’ve been stealing then you’ll be in big trouble, young man. Well, unless you confess, in which case there’ll be no punishment…’

 

[Tis_Bearself]

knowing that one would wind up in Heaven and one wind up in hell

As has been repeatedly stated on the thread, we have absolutely no idea who ends up in Heaven (except the handful of saints canonized by the Church) and who ends up in Hell, or how many souls go to either place. We cannot possibly “know” anything of the sort you are proposing.

Furthermore, would it not be a better plan to have children and to pray to God unceasingly for their salvation? Quite a few saints who had wayward children did that. Do we not trust God to take care of such matters if we do our part and pray and do penance?

Undue worries about yourself or a loved one going to Hell suggest some level of lack of trust in God. If you really feel that way, you should work on having more trust in Him.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Maybe you can bring your kids up that way.

‘If I find out you’ve been stealing then you’ll be in big trouble, young man. Well, unless you confess, in which case there’ll be no punishment…’

I know you’re prolly being facetious, but I’d like to clear this up for any lurkers.

In Catholic theology, we are required to follow the moral law. It isn’t easy. It goes against our inclinations and sometimes against our society, but we are required to do so.

At the same time, we do sin. We miss the mark. We do ugly things and behave in ugly ways to each other.

However, that doesn’t mean we can’t change our mind and get back on the path of behaving righteously. This is called “repentance”.
We might even do a better job at it on the next try!
So, repentance is always open.

Punishment comes in a few forms. There are natural consequences (ie broken relationships) and those that come after death (purgatory or hell).

Any repentance has to be a sincere changing of the mind. Not a snivelly phony forced apology.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Having had at least one Protestant make a similar remark to me about “Catholics don’t have to worry about sin because they can just confess it and it’s gone”, I think non-Catholics also sometimes don’t realize the level of guilt and baggage that tend to accompany sin in the Catholic mind. We are also not permitted to have the attitude of “Oh I’ll go ahead and sin and just confess it later” as that is a sin of presumption and is in itself another sin.

It’s possible to get past the guilt and baggage, but only if you either

1. reject the whole concept of sin and ignore the fact that it will send you to Hell and just do what you want and figure everybody who’s “not Hitler” (as Fr. Mike says) will go to Heaven, which (as Fr. Mike also says) is wrong thinking; or
2. get to a point in your life where you really want to love and serve the Lord so that sin ceases to look attractive and you genuinely don’t want to sin and avoid doing it. This is more difficult and requires real commitment but, since I have tried both 1) and 2), I can testify that 2) feels a lot better. With 1) you’ve always still got a nagging worry somewhere in the back of your mind.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Maybe you can bring your kids up that way.

‘If I find out you’ve been stealing then you’ll be in big trouble, young man. Well, unless you confess, in which case there’ll be no punishment…’

I know you’re prolly being facetious, but I’d like to clear this up for any lurkers.

In Catholic theology, we are required to follow the moral law. It isn’t easy. It goes against our inclinations and sometimes against our society, but we are required to do so.

At the same time, we do sin. We miss the mark. We do ugly things and behave in ugly ways to each other.

However, that doesn’t mean we can’t change our mind and get back on the path of behaving righteously. This is called “repentance”.
We might even do a better job at it on the next try!
So, repentance is always open.

Punishment comes in a few forms. There are natural consequences (ie broken relationships) and those that come after death (purgatory or hell).

Any repentance has to be a sincere changing of the mind. Not a snivelly phony forced apology.

If someone truly believed in hell, do you think they would sin at all?

Let’s say that we make sex outside marriage a punishable offence in law. It already is punishable as far as you are concerned because it will send you to hell. For eternity. So we’ll make the punishment burning at the stake in the town square. And you will be found out. There’ll be cameras and drones and undercover police everywhere.

How many people do you think would break that law? I know. None.

Now let’s change the law slightly. If you get caught you must truly repent or be burned to death. So more people risk it. And how many would truly repent do you think? I know. Everyone.

 

[Montrose]

If someone truly believed in hell, do you think they would sin at all ?

Yes. Even saints have committed mortal sins.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

If someone truly believed in hell, do you think they would sin at all ?

Yes, they would. The ability of the human mind to rationalize sin knows no bounds. In the past I committed sins that even you would agree were sins (as in not the way humans should act to each other, hell or no hell) and somehow convinced myself they must be perfectly okay for one reason or another. I still believed in Hell but it was like, for other people (like Hitler).

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

If someone truly believed in hell, do you think they would sin at all ?

Yes. Even saints have committed mortal sins.

So you would risk eternal punishment for having sex before you got married? And how about the legal punishment noted above. Would you risk certain punishment and a horrifying death in the here and now?

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

If someone truly believed in hell, do you think they would sin at all ?

Well, look at the history of the world.
Most belief systems have a concept of an afterlife where punishment is a possibility.
And yet, bad behavior still happens.

You know it’s hard to delay gratification. Sometimes the present moment options is extremely alluring.
Virtue takes a great deal of practice over timescales or years and decades.
And, we all carry heart wounds.

So, as somebody who believes that Hell exists, and still falls into sin, the answer is…yes

 

[Tis_Bearself]

So you would risk eternal punishment for having sex before you got married? And how about the legal punishment noted above. Would you risk certain punishment and a horrifying death in the here and now?

Biology is pretty strong, dude.

 

[Montrose]

So you would risk eternal punishment for having sex before you got married? And how about the legal punishment noted above. Would you risk certain punishment and a horrifying death in the here and now?

I believe there is almost nobody alive who has not committed a mortal sin from time to time throughout their life.
The problem is when someone does so they are likely not thinking about Hell at the time. It is an afterthought.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

If someone truly believed in hell, do you think they would sin at all ?

Well, look at the history of the world.
Most belief systems have a concept of an afterlife where punishment is a possibility.

It’s not a possibility. You aren’t rolling the dice. It’s certain. Unless you repent.

You know that God sees you sinning. And you know the punishment is eternity in hell. The only thing that will prevent it is you repenting. So you know even while you are sinning that you will need to repent. You know that in advance.

And I have never ever talked to anyone in many years on Christian forums that says that they have never sinned. And they will often say, as you did, that they will still sin.

It’s a punishment that appears to have zero affect on anyone at all.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

So you would risk eternal punishment for having sex before you got married? And how about the legal punishment noted above. Would you risk certain punishment and a horrifying death in the here and now?

I believe there is almost nobody alive who has not committed a mortal sin from time to time throughout their life.
The problem is when someone does so they are likely not thinking about Hell at the time. It is an afterthought.

An afterthought? Eternity in hell is an afterthought?

I will guarantee that in the scenario I proposed earlier that burning at the stake would most definitely not be considered an afterthought. It would be first and foremost in your mind even contemplating an illicit relationship. It would scare you so much that even the thought of someone you know being caught would keep you up at nights. In fact, you would do anything in your power to prevent a friend from breaking the law.

And you are trying to tell me that hell kinda slips your mind now and then.

 

[Montrose]

An afterthought ? Eternity in hell is an afterthought ?

I will guarantee that in the scenario I proposed earlier that burning at the stake would most definitely not be considered an afterthought. It would be first and foremost in your mind even contemplating an illicit relationship. It would scare you so much that even the thought of someone you know being caught would keep you up at nights. In fact, you would do anything in your power to prevent a friend from breaking the law.

I guess you really don’t understand biology!

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

An afterthought ? Eternity in hell is an afterthought ?

I will guarantee that in the scenario I proposed earlier that burning at the stake would most definitely not be considered an afterthought. It would be first and foremost in your mind even contemplating an illicit relationship. It would scare you so much that even the thought of someone you know being caught would keep you up at nights. In fact, you would do anything in your power to prevent a friend from breaking the law.

I guess you really don’t understand biology!

Well, if I’m reading you right (and I was going to mention it in the last post), the fear of the punishment would almost certainly make you incapable of comitting the crime. If you see what I mean.

But an eternity in hell apparently doesn’t. The threat of a few minutes in agony here and now seems to carry an infnite amount of weight over and above an eternity of it.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

If someone truly believed in hell, do you think they would sin at all ?

Yes, they would. The ability of the human mind to rationalize sin knows no bounds. In the past I committed sins that even you would agree were sins (as in not the way humans should act to each other, hell or no hell) and somehow convinced myself they must be perfectly okay for one reason or another. I still believed in Hell but it was like, for other people (like Hitler).

Exactly. It’s for other people. No one person thinks they’re going there themselves. Which means that literally nobody thinks it. My point exactly.

 

[Montrose]

Exactly. It’s for other people. No one person thinks they’re going there themselves. Which means that literally nobody thinks it. My point exactly.

That is completely different from not believing in Hell. It’s not that people do not think they will or could go to Hell. They think they have time to rectify their sinful situation before then not realising that, for example, they could get hit by a car and killed or have a heart attack immediately after committing the sin thereby condemning themselves for eternity.

 

[27lw]

Some people fear hell more than others, depending on their understanding of morality, theology, personal culpability, etc.
I do think that fewer people take it seriously now, than, say, 75 years ago. I think the Church has been remiss in not emphasizing hell enough in recent teaching.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Exactly. It’s for other people. No one person thinks they’re going there themselves. Which means that literally nobody thinks it. My point exactly.

People often have a “Come to Jesus” moment when we realize how messed up our thinking has been and become acutely aware of Hell and how we may very well be headed there if we don’t shape up. It often happens in concert with us realizing that our earthly lives have gotten pretty messed up and empty also. For an addict it would be called “hitting bottom”. It’s a sort of hitting spiritual bottom.

Also, even those who don’t think they’re going to Hell for whatever they’re doing during the day often have some kind of “point beyond which” they think their own behavior would be so bad as to send them to Hell. I have had friends who are not living Catholic moral lives day to day tell me they would have killed themselves except they were afraid of going to Hell if they did that. Apparently this is common as someone else on another thread just posted his friend had said the same thing.