Having children while fearing hell

[MNathaniel]

Well, it’s a word the church uses

At this point you seem to be intentionally looking past the meaning the Church communicates, to try to project the most objectionable possible (from your perspective) different meaning onto the words she uses in communication.

I’m not going to try to argue you into conversing more honestly. You bring your own level of intellectual honesty to every conversation you have (and as with all of us, our level of intellectual honesty, including with ourselves, is one of the things we’ll be accountable for at the last judgement).

You seem to want to be offended. You can choose to have a different disposition than that. You can ask God to help you want the truth rather than to look for things to be offended at.

I hope one day you want to learn the truth, and be happy, more than you want it to not-be-true that the truth and happiness are in a certain place.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

But surely you cannot deny that it’s mean to be the ultimate punishment. That there is nothing worse.

And it is a person’s free choice to accept that and reject God’s love.

And we’ve come full loop. It doesn’t appear to have any affect on people’s behaviour. Nobody believes that they are bound for hell.

It appears to me that if there was no chance of repentance and someone truly believed in hell then it would be madness to sin. But, people do sin and yet do not feel as if they will be punished. Presumably, as you say, because they ultimately won’t reject God’s love. And surely that’s always being considered. I doubt if anyone actively thinks: ‘It’s OK to sin this time as I will not ultimately be rejecting God’s love, so I’ll still get to heaven’. But gee, what other explanation can there be?

Imagine a son saying to his father ‘I’m sorry I stole that money. I love you and don’t want to let you down. Please forgive me. Don’t punish me’.

I think that father would if his son truly repented. But then if the son says some time later: ‘I’m sorry I took the drugs. I love you and don’t want to let you down. Please forgive me. Don’t punish me’, would the father be so keen to forgive? Because if this keeps on happening and the father keeps on forgiving then what do you think is going to happen? What’s compelling the son to hit the straight and narrow if he knows that if he’s repentant then there’s not going to be any payback?

And it’s not as if the son is taking advantage of his father. He is truly repentant. He doesn’t want to let him down. He does actually love him. But what point is there in any punishment being threatened if it’s never carried out. Or at the very least, if the person thinks he’s never going to be punished?

Son: ‘I’m beside myself because I’ve let my father down yet again’.
Friend: ‘Well, just take your punishment like a man and never do it again’.
Son: ‘Punishment? Oh, there’ll be no punishment. He’ll just forgive me. I’m always repentant so that means I’ll never get punished.’

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Well, it’s a word the church uses

At this point you seem to be intentionally looking past the meaning the Church communicates, to try to project the most objectionable possible (from your perspective) different meaning onto the words she uses in communication.

First up, I’m not too happy about you insinuating that I’m discussing this dishonestly.

And for tbe third or fourth time, you can describe hell in whichever way you choose. People seem to have different ideas about what it entails so I’m quite happy to go with how you see it. But despite what you said, it is a punishment - described as such by your own catechism, and unless I’m mistaken - and you can correct me as to your personal view on this - however you perceive it, it is meant to be the ultimate punishment.

And that makes no sense when you consider the number of times so many people simply ignore the worst that could happen to them.

 

[Freddy]

Understood. But then I fail to see how it could be considered a punishment. I’m sure you’d agree that you can act immoraly (pleasures of the flesh etc) and yet still love God. So as you have explained it, the second half of that statement precludes any punishment for the first.

Again, I’m sure no-one thinks ‘I love God so I can actually have that affair’. But if that’s the mind set you are describing, then no wonder no-one fears hell.

 

[MNathaniel]

But despite what you said, it is a punishment - described as such by your own catechism, and unless I’m mistaken - and you can correct me as to your personal view on this - however you perceive it, it is meant to be the ultimate punishment.

Punishment doesn’t necessarily mean imposed from the outside as with a human court. It can just mean consequence.

A bowling ball falling on your face is the natural ‘punishment’ for holding a bowling ball above your face then letting go. Some consequences necessarily follow actions. Rejecting God is like that. If you separate yourself from God, and reject His offer to be re-united to Him, you will not be re-united to Him.

And the state of not being united to God, after willfully rejecting Him, is a state of suffering. Because what you’ve rejected is goodness itself. You can’t experience goodness if you reject goodness.

And that makes no sense when you consider the number of times so many people simply ignore the worst that could happen to them.

Humans often don’t “make sense”. You seem to be positing a hypothetical divorced from reality.

I believe in hell and yet I sin. You have to ignore that fact for your worldview to make sense.

First up, I’m not too happy about you insinuating that I’m discussing this dishonestly.

If you’ll stop trying to force other people to use meanings and definitions they don’t choose for themselves, then I can stop pointing out that’s a dishonest technique.

 

[Freddy]

I believe in hell and yet I sin. You have to ignore that fact for your worldview to make sense.

One more time…you can use whatever definition of hell you choose. I’m not here to impose my view on what people think it is on you. So any discussion we have is based on your idea of what it entails.

So perhaps we can cut to the chase here. Is there anything worse that you can imagine than ending up in hell? And note that I didn’t say ‘than being sent to hell’. If you want to go with the idea that it’s self inflicted then we’ll go with that.

 

[Freddy]

It is a punishment because it’s retribution for sins we committed. God is infinitely Just and will give us what we are owed.
[/quote]

Not in any sense that we understand that. You couod be the worse mass murderer and truly repent or the most saint-like person and for whatever reason reject God.

What happens to these people? What does God give them that they deserve?

 

[Freddy]

No, there can be nothing worse, but that doesn’t stop us from sinning because the sins we commit tend to happen at this moment, and concupiscence tends to drown out the future thoughts.

But I will guarantee you that MNathaniel and any Catholic who fears hell sins less today than they did yesterday, and will sin less tomorrow than they did today.

It’s about where we are going and growing in Holiness
[/quote]

But can’t you see that what you said makes no sense in this context?

You claim that hell awaits those who sin and that it’s literally the worst thing that can happen to you…yet you admit that you and others will carry on sinning. You’re obviously not worried about it.

 

[MNathaniel]

So perhaps we can cut to the chase here. Is there anything worse that you can imagine than ending up in hell?

No. Receiving the hell I deserve is the worst thing I can imagine (especially because of the pain of knowing I’d deserve it, which would accompany it).

That said, I wonder if your interpretation of how ‘free will’ works is a key issue here?

Because I imagine you’re about to make some kind of economic statement about humans being rational actors who make choices in our own best interests. As if we simply look to outcomes and then make the most rational choice.

But that’s not true.

My free will allowed me to make choices that aren’t in the direction of my own best-informed self-interest.

And the kinds of choices that affect our internal state on the Heaven-hell significant level, are the kinds of choices not about what we’ll receive, but about who we are.

Are we the kind of person who, when pressured, tells a lie? Or clings to the truth?

When the chips are down do we sacrifice our neighbor for our own purposes? Or do we sacrifice ourselves for our neighbor?

In the end we cannot disguise our heart. We either choose love of God, and that is the very disposition of our heart… or we don’t choose to participate in that fullness of truth and love. We disalign ourselves from truth and love, and thereby lose them.

But even before we see things more fully as they are, there are little moments, little choices. Choices between truth or lie, loving God and neighbor or prioritizing self. And those choices are more real than whether we think that, if offered a dispassionate choice of two buttons in a sterile room, we’d choose the one marked ‘heaven’ over ‘hell’.

 

[Freddy]

If you ignore the rest of my statement

We have what is called concupiscence, which means we are drawn towards sin. Some people never commit mortal sins again, but it is nearly impossible to not commit venial sins.

Not all sins send you to hell, it is the unrepentant mortal sins that do.
[/quote]

Let’s try an example. Do you think a woman who believes in hell who takes contraception does so knowing that it will send her to hell? She may confess the sin but continues nevertheless. Isn’t that like the mugger who says ‘Look, I know I did wrong and I really am terribly sorry, please forgive me’ and then leaves the confessional and mugs someone ougside the church.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

So perhaps we can cut to the chase here. Is there anything worse that you can imagine than ending up in hell?

No. Receiving the hell I deserve is the worst thing I can imagine (especially because of the pain of knowing I’d deserve it, which would accompany it).

That said, I wonder if your interpretation of how ‘free will’ works is a key issue here?

Because I imagine you’re about to make some kind of economic statement about humans being rational actors who make choices in our own best interests. As if we simply look to outcomes and then make the most rational choice.

But that’s not true.

My free will allowed me to make choices that aren’t in the direction of my own best-informed self-interest.

And the kinds of choices that affect our internal state on the Heaven-hell significant level, are the kinds of choices not about what we’ll receive, but about who we are.

Are we the kind of person who, when pressured, tells a lie? Or clings to the truth?

When the chips are down do we sacrifice our neighbor for our own purposes? Or do we sacrifice ourselves for our neighbor?

In the end we cannot disguise our heart. We either choose love of God, and that is the very disposition of our heart… or we don’t choose to participate in that fullness of truth and love. We disalign ourselves from truth and love, and thereby lose them.

But even before we see things more fully as they are, there are little moments, little choices. Choices between truth or lie, loving God and neighbor or prioritizing self. And those choices are more real than whether we think that, if offered a dispassionate choice of two buttons in a sterile room, we’d choose the one marked ‘heaven’ over ‘hell’.

Then your free will decisions appear to blazingly simple. Do you love God or use contraception? Do you love God or sleep with your girlfriend? Do you love God or have an abortion?

These are your free will decisions. Which God allows you to make. And every time you decide not to choose God then that is an honestly made decision. I’ll grant that there may be certain circumstances when the decision is spur of the moment and I’ll accept that. But conscious, deliberated, well thought out decisions such as using contraception or moving in with a girl are a rejection of God and will result in you ending up in whatever version of hell you believe in.

But nobody does think that. Nobody thinks: ‘We cannot afford another child so I’ll voluntarily send myself to hell and use contraception’. Nobody says: ‘This is going to result in eternal punishment for us both but I think we should get an apartment’. Even consciously denying God’s wishes won’t convince anyone that that is the fate that awaits them.

Surel you agree with that.

 

[MNathaniel]

Surel you agree with that.

It seems you’re struggling with the possibility that other people think differently than you do. (Or that the answers others are trying to give are to questions different from what you’re asking?)

And remember, we’re not judged in the end on ‘Would you press a button called ‘Heaven’ instead of a button called ‘Hell’’.

We’re judged in the end on the degree to which we conformed, by the choices we made in our daily lives, to God who is love and truth Himself. (And since we all fall short, we additionally must accept the freely offered mercy of God to make up the debt we cannot pay.)

 

[Freddy]

Her confession is meaningless because she doesn’t resolve to stop. Repentance means actively moving away from sin.
[/quote]

And this is the only point I have been trying to make. Nothing more than this. That the majority of people who believe in hell don’t fear it at all. They make conscious decisions that they are quite happy to make and continue to make (contraception, moving in with each other etc). And as you rightly say, saying ‘sorry’ whilst continuing to sin cuts no ice. It’s meaningless. But these are the type of sins I’ve been considering. Not the ‘whoops, I wasn’t really thinking’ type.

And these people - who I might suggest are in the majority (just think about Catholic abortion rates, the use of contraception by Catholic women and Catholic attitudes to sex before marriage for example), will all tell you that they are heaven bound.

Hell holds no fear.

 

[MNathaniel]

And these people - who I might suggest are in the majority (just think about Catholic abortion rates, the use of contraception by Catholic women and Catholic attitudes to sex before marriage for example), will all tell you that they are heaven bound.

But what does the opinion of a Catholic who thinks they can kill children without repenting and still be heaven-bound, have to do with actual Catholic teaching?

Jesus himself said that heaven wasn’t for those who only called him “Lord, Lord”, but for those who actually did the will of his Father in heaven.

Majority means nothing when it comes to truth.

 

[Freddy]

Anyway, I think I’ve said all I want to. I don’t want to go over ground already covered. I appreciate the responses from both of you. Thank you for taking the time to read what I have written - even if you don’t agree with it.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

And these people - who I might suggest are in the majority (just think about Catholic abortion rates, the use of contraception by Catholic women and Catholic attitudes to sex before marriage for example), will all tell you that they are heaven bound.

But what does the opinion of a Catholic who thinks they can kill children without repenting and still be heaven-bound, have to do with actual Catholic teaching?

Nothing. This wasn’t about Catholic teaching as such. It was how people view Catholic teaching.

But thanks again.

 

[Neithan]

Hell holds no fear.

By way of analogy, some people risk (or worse) serious, debilitating injury in extreme acts because they get a thrill from it; Freud called it the Todestrieb — “death drive” — a rush from the feeling of self-destructiveness. Do these people not fear the injury or destruction? It’s the very fear that thrills them. Was it any less of a fear when the risk becomes the reality, or any less real when the reality brings misery?

Likewise, there is a transgressive thrill in grave sin — in doing what is so wrong just because it’s wrong. People do this all the time. St. Augustine wrote of it in his Confessions and described it as the root of original sin. You’re arguing that hell is no deterrent: it is, for those of us who genuinely want to avoid it. Not everyone does, at least not all the time. So be it.