Having children while fearing hell

[Usagi]

I will guarantee that in the scenario I proposed earlier that burning at the stake would most definitely not be considered an afterthought.

The U.S. has the death penalty. People still murder. Some in moments of anger, some with well-thought-out planning.

In the past, people committed (and sometimes even boldly confessed to) acts that actually were punished with burning alive or similar horrors. Heck, people commit criminalized sexual acts in countries that will execute you for doing them right now.

Humans are perverse. That is also a teaching of the Church, and one (unlike the afterlife) that is easily observable right here and now.

 

[Usagi]

I’ll hear that “stealing a pack of gum” isn’t a grave sin, but the catechism says that it is, as it is breaking one of the Ten Commandments (see 1858). The catechism does say some sins can be more or less grave (“The gravity of sins is more or less great”), but they are still considered grave.

The way most catechisms (including the CCC) line up their moral theology, every sin breaks at least one of the Ten Commandments. (That does involve broadening each Commandment out some, but Jesus started us on that road when He taught that hatred violates the command against murder and lust the command against adultery.) There are nevertheless still venial and mortal sins. Stealing a pack of gum (or almost anything a small child might get up to, with very rare exceptions) would be venial.

“Gravity” is a continuum. If something is of little enough gravity, it is not “grave” in the sense the Catechism means.

What Catholicism says about God is a billion times stricter: deliberately masturbate one time with full knowledge and die before Confession, you will spend an eternity in torture (even though our biological inclinations are very strong, as you point out).

Full knowledge and full consent of the will. That’s where the “biology being strong” element can mitigate some of the culpability.

“What Catholicism says about God” is that He wants all of us with Him in Heaven. That’s literally why He made us. And he’s fighting to get us the whole way. It’s not like He just sits there when we are tempted, and even when we sin, and waits to judge us instead of running to our aid like the prodigal son’s father.

Yes, if you die in a state of mortal sin, you go to Hell. But the Church also emphasizes that we cannot know if anyone has actually done so. There are no anti-saints. The probabilities may lean toward a fairly crowded Hell, but probabilities don’t apply to individual cases. Even if 90% of humans ever are in Hell (and I pray not, and God wills not), that doesn’t mean your particular kid has a 90% chance of damnation. It’s not a dice roll. It’s whether your kid, specifically and individually, responds positively to the promptings of God’s grace (including the ones prompting them to repent after even the most serious sin) or willfully turns against God. And you as a parent would have at least some (though not perfect) influence over that.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

So honestly, how many sins can you name that don’t break one of the Ten Commandments and don’t break one of the precepts of the church, and don’t break the many things that the catechism separately points to as being “grave”?

I don’t mean to be rude, but have you ever discussed with a priest or otherwise been taught just what constitutes “grave” sin? Yes, every sin breaks one of the 10 Commandments, but “grave matter” is generally understood to apply to serious sins. It’s like the difference between ffelonies and misdemeanors; every one of them is a crime and breaks the law, but felonies are understood as a specific set of serious violations.

Often it’s a matter of degree. Yelling, “I hope you die” at someone and meaning it would be a violation of the 5th Commandment “Thou shalt not kill”, but probably not grave matter, especially if it was something said in the heat of the moment when you were angry. Actually shooting the person or beating them with a baseball bat is also a violation of the 5th commandment and would be grave matter. Likewise, a kid stealing a pack of gum once or twice would probably not be grave matter because gum is cheap and the kid isn’t habitually stealing. A kid stealing an expensive piece of jewelry, or stealing every day for 3 years without necessity, may be grave matter because it’s a high dollar item and/or a habit of willful stealing.

 

[Freddy]

You break the law and there’s a reasonable chance you won’t get punished. And even if you are caught and punished then, with the exception of the most heinous crimes you’ll get a temporary punishment. And even if it’s the worst category of crimes then you’ll spend a lifetime in jail with a warm bed, three sqare and the opportunity to make ammends in some way and a hope for parole.

And you want to compare that to a crime that you are guaranteed to be punished for (and we’re not talking about mass murder or genocide or crimes against humanity here - it’s things like sex outside of marriage or masturbation) which will be eternal punishment with no opportunity of mercy. Give me a break…

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

I will guarantee that in the scenario I proposed earlier that burning at the stake would most definitely not be considered an afterthought.

The U.S. has the death penalty. People still murder. Some in moments of anger, some with well-thought-out planning.

In the past, people committed (and sometimes even boldly confessed to) acts that actually were punished with burning alive or similar horrors. Heck, people commit criminalized sexual acts in countries that will execute you for doing them right now.

Humans are perverse. That is also a teaching of the Church, and one (unlike the afterlife) that is easily observable right here and now.

Aren’t you making my point for me? That hell is no deterrent?

 

[mythbuster1]

By your logic, a deterrent is only a deterrent if it is perfect. Some people sin out of despair, figuring that they can’t possibly sustain a virtuous life and arrive at their final salvation, so why should they bother depriving themselves now?

 

[Usagi]

Aren’t you making my point for me? That hell is no deterrent?

No, I am suggesting that even burning at the stake, demonstrably and visibly in this world, has not always been a deterrent. Thus, not completely altering one’s behavior out of fear of Hell doesn’t mean one doesn’t really believe in it.

 

[Montrose]

And you want to compare that to a crime that you are guaranteed to be punished for (and we’re not talking about mass murder or genocide or crimes against humanity here - it’s things like sex outside of marriage or masturbation) which will be eternal punishment with no opportunity of mercy. Give me a break…

You have until your dying breath to repent and God will show mercy. If you die in a state of mortal sin it is not God who sends you to Hell. You make the free choice to reject God’s love and spend eternity separated from him. Your choice!

 

[Freddy]

By your logic, a deterrent is only a deterrent if it is perfect. Some people sin out of despair, figuring that they can’t possibly sustain a virtuous life and arrive at their final salvation, so why should they bother depriving themselves now?

No. A deterrent is only a deterrent when it works. When all people consider that it will affect them directly. And eternally.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Aren’t you making my point for me? That hell is no deterrent?

No, I am suggesting that even burning at the stake, demonstrably and visibly in this world, has not always been a deterrent. Thus, not completely altering one’s behavior out of fear of Hell doesn’t mean one doesn’t really believe in it.

Then one obviously doesn’t believe the deterrent is either punishment enough or that it doesn’t apply to them.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

And you want to compare that to a crime that you are guaranteed to be punished for (and we’re not talking about mass murder or genocide or crimes against humanity here - it’s things like sex outside of marriage or masturbation) which will be eternal punishment with no opportunity of mercy. Give me a break…

You have until your dying breath to repent and God will show mercy. If you die in a state of mortal sin it is not God who sends you to Hell. You make the free choice to reject God’s love and spend eternity separated from him. Your choice!

Yeah, so many people choose eternal torment. Who would have thought, eh?

 

[MNathaniel]

The King of the Universe has invited you to a wedding feast at which will be served the bread of eternal life.

You will either answer this invitation ‘yes’ or ‘no’.

God will accept your answer.

After you die, the feast will unfold. And you will either joyfully partake – in accordance with your choice – or stand in the shadows gnashing your teeth watching others partake of what you have chosen not to partake of. Also in accordance with your choice.

I’m here to pass along the invitation to the feast. I suggest you answer ‘Yes’.

Your choice is yours though.

 

[Freddy]

The King of the Universe has invited you to a wedding feast at which will be served the bread of eternal life.

You will either answer this invitation ‘yes’ or ‘no’

Who would answer ‘no’ if we thought it was a genuine offer? And if we thought that eternal terror was the punishment for sinning, then who would be idiotic enough to sin?

I’ll tell you something about hell. If I woke up tomorrow and truly believed in it then I would spend my remaining days avoiding anything whatsoever to do with any sin of any sort and do nothing but what I thought was God’s will and truly begging Him for forgiveness for anything I might have done that displeased Him.

In all probability, I would be so terrified of making a mistake then I would cease to be a functioning adult.

 

[MNathaniel]

One thought occurs to me.

For the sake of basic human integrity, I hope you’ll go out of your way to look for the least objectionable interpretation of hell to consider, not the most objectionable interpretation.

All this talk of burning alive and terror, etc…

You do understand, right, that no mere human actually knows what hell will concretely be like. No more than we know what heaven will concretely be like.

So imagery is used. And different people discuss different imagery, and speculate about different things.

I hope you’re aware that one prominent interpretation of hell is that the primary suffering there is the knowledge of the loss of God and the relationship one could have had with Him.

Each human was made to know God. Made for eternal life. Made to be fed by God Himself at the wedding feast.

To simply fail to receive (because we fail to accept when offered) the fulfillment of what we were made for and invited to… that’s a true, hellish horror. Add whatever poetic imagery you want to it (darkness, fiery passion, ice cold sadness)… the knowledge of the loss of what one could have had, is the worst.

So look towards what you could have. Look towards the offer. The good. Look towards God, Who loves you and created you to be loved and glorified. And who invites you to receive eternal life, His own life, in the wedding feast. You are invited to eternal joy. Don’t say no, lest you have to live with knowing you said no.

 

[c4csp]

What Catholicism says about God is a billion times stricter: deliberately masturbate one time with full knowledge and die before Confession, you will spend an eternity in torture (even though our biological inclinations are very strong, as you point out).

We must unpack this a bit. 3 conditions for mortal sin. 1) grave(masturbation is grave) 2) full knowledge that the sin is grave matter. 3) Deliberate consent. Now a habit through addiction may lessen deliberate consent. If you die in unrepented mortal sin, you go to hell(That is church teaching). Now unrepented does not mean unconfessed through sacrament of penance. Someone could have repented and just not have gotten to confession yet and then died. We must realize that there are many struggling to overcome masturbation or other sins of impurity. If they are striving and get back up after a fall then they are doing their part. We are called to pick up our crosses, knowing we may fall. It is when we give up and just reject Church teaching and continue unrepented in our sin that is the problem. We hope in god’s mercy because we all desperately need it, but we shouldn’t take advantage of it or fall to sin of presumption.

 

[Freddy]

Add whatever poetic imagery you want to it (darkness, fiery passion, ice cold sadness)… the knowledge of the loss of what one could have had, is the worst.

Paint whatever picture of hell you want. But as you say, it’s the worst punishment imaginable for those who think it’s real. Otherwise why would it exist? As a concept that one could come to terms with? And think: ‘Hey, I can cope with that’. In which case it doesn’t serve as a warning to those who might need the warning more than anyone.

You can’t have this both ways, Nathaniel. You can’t use it as the ultimate punishment and then say ‘it’s not as bad as some people portray it’.

 

[ATraveller]

Couldn’t we also ask why people should have children if they’re going to get bullied, may end up with a substance abuse, may suffer a debilitating illness or might get hit by a bus?
Like those things, hell isn’t guaranteed (unless you’re some Dutch hyper-Calvinist, who oddly enough have lots of children anyway despite holding the view God directly sends evenly decently moral people to hell).
Also, don’t Catholics believe in purgatory? (unless I’m forgetting some aspects about that state that we on the other side of the Tiber aren’t allowed to believe in.)

 

[MNathaniel]

You can’t have this both ways, Nathaniel. You can’t use it as the ultimate punishment and then say ‘it’s not as bad as some people portray it’.

Point to me a single place where I’ve used the word “punishment”. That’s a word you’re using, not a word I’m using.

Hell isn’t something God inflicts on us.

It’s something we do to ourselves by removing ourselves from the goodness of God.

The natural consequence of removing yourself from goodness, is being removed from goodness.

God warns us to avoid that because He wants us to be happy and well. He points us to union with Himself because that’s the path to being happy and well.

As CS Lewis points out:

“God cannot give us a happiness and peace apart from Himself, because it is not there. There is no such thing.”

God invites us to happiness. For our sake. Because He wants what’s best for us. If you say no to happiness, you’ll get ‘not happiness’.

That’s not a ‘punishment’ in the sense you keep talking about. That’s getting exactly what you ask for. On par with holding a bowling ball above our own face and dropping it. God is saying: “Don’t drop the bowling ball on your face. That will hurt. Trust me. Put it gently down, and come over here and enjoy this delicious feast I’ve prepared just for you.” The fact that God’s advised you not to drop the bowling ball on your face, and He advised you to come enjoy a feast instead, doesn’t mean He’s ‘punishing’ you if you drop that bowling ball on your face instead of coming to the feast. You’ve received an invitation to come enjoy a good thing, and you’ve been lovingly counseled not to do a thing that will lead you to pain. It’s up to you which advice you follow.

But if you drop the bowling ball on your face, while God asks you not to and to come enjoy the feast instead, you don’t get to say to God: “Ow! Why are you punishing me?”

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

You can’t have this both ways, Nathaniel. You can’t use it as the ultimate punishment and then say ‘it’s not as bad as some people portray it’.

Point to me a single place where I’ve used the word “punishment”. That’s a word you’re using, not a word I’m using.

Well, it’s a word the church uses:

The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs” (CCC 1035).

I think you’re the first person I have ever talked to who argues against it being a punishment. And as I said quite clearly enough earlier, you can paint whatever picture of hell you wish. Separation from God or ‘eternal fire’ and demons with pitchforks. That’s up to you. But surely you cannot deny that it’s mean to be the ultimate punishment. That there is nothing worse.

 

[Montrose]

But surely you cannot deny that it’s mean to be the ultimate punishment. That there is nothing worse.

And it is a person’s free choice to accept that and reject God’s love.