He who endures to the end will be saved!

[Rocket_Man]

I’m only asking to understand. Are you a Calvinist?
Is free will a part of Calvinist doctrine?

Don’t you still exercise your free will when you determine how much time you will spend in prayer or how much money you will give to the poor, or what you have for dinner?

I’ve never declared my self to be a Calvinist. I don’t wear any denominational robe.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Don’t you still exercise your free will when you determine how much time you will spend in prayer or how much money you will give to the poor, or what you have for dinner?

You do in all these.

 

[graceandglory]

I’ve never declared my self to be a Calvinist. I don’t wear any denominational robe.

That makes sense. I understand. I have friends who do wear the Reformed Presbyterian “robe” and say some of the same things. Thank you.

 

[MacDaddy]

I’ve never declared my self to be a Calvinist. I don’t wear any denominational robe.

amen

 

[MacDaddy]

Being a catechist is the scariest responsibility I have. I take this part of my job very seriously and am not beyond learning. I can only do this by the grace of God. I can’t imagine thinking I know everything.

We will never know everything is this life even if we were able to study the bible 16 hours everyday; there is so much richness. I have been looking online to familiarize myself with Catholic doctrine and started reading some of the catechism from the vatican sit and someone else sent me an apologetic Catholic link and I played with that and downloaded a free MP3 and listened to that. There is a lot of information associated with your religion, so it will take a while to get up to speed. What is a catechist; I believe one that teaches the catechism of the church?

 

[MacDaddy]

MacD,Welcome, This is a Catholic forum,we share and explain our Apostolic faith to the interested visitors. and you are welcome to share and explain yours. It is not our way to confirm anyone if they are in error of what they think we believe. We wish to defend the Truth of our Christian faith. With an occasional exception, that is what we do. When that occasional exception confirms error in visitors, we do admonish but we do not judge.:thumbsup:Carlan

Thanks for the welcome.

 

[Rocket_Man]

[Catholic Version of TULIP

Just to let you know that your link out wasn’t wasted and I did read the article.
[/quote]

 

[graceandglory]

Just to let you know that your link out wasn’t wasted and I did read the article.

God bless you RocketMan.

 

[graceandglory]

We will never know everything is this life even if we were able to study the bible 16 hours everyday; there is so much richness. Aaaaahhh. Humility! I have been looking online to familiarize myself with Catholic doctrine and started reading some of the catechism from the vatican sit and someone else sent me an apologetic Catholic link and I played with that and downloaded a free MP3 and listened to that. I love how practically everything Catholic is FREE! There is a lot of information associated with your religion, so it will take a while to get up to speed. No doubt, there’s a lot. It took 2,000 years to put together. What is a catechist; I believe one that teaches the catechism of the church?

A catechist is a teacher of the doctrines of the faith.
**
Pope John Paul II on Catechesis**
Catechesi Tradendae
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_16101979_catechesi-tradendae_en.html

Whatever be the level of his responsibility in the Church, every catechist must constantly endeavor to transmit by his teaching and behavior the teaching and life of Jesus. **He will not seek to keep directed toward himself and his personal opinions and attitudes the attention and the consent of the mind and heart of the person he is catechizing. **Above all, he will not try to inculcate his personal opinions and options as if they expressed Christ’s teaching and the lessons of his life. Every catechist should be able to apply to himself the mysterious words of Jesus: “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me.”

 

[SHW]

“Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.”

Luke is writing Theophilus in order to reassure him that what he has been taught is exactly the same as everyone else has been taught since the beginning of the Church’s existence and this is because the Church’s teachings (gospel of Jesus) have been handed down without error. Luke is now making a written account for Theophilus in order to reassure him that no error has been mixed in with truth as it was handed down. Other leaders have also written their congregations in order to reassure them that what they were taught orally is the same exact truth that has been taught since the beginning of the Church.

2 Timothy 2:2
And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

Choose good faithful (to the gospel) men to be leaders (bishops, elders/priests, deacons) in the Church. Teach them all the things that you have been taught. After they have learned them (the gospel) thoroughly and correctly, then ordain them so that they may in turn teach others, etc.

This is called apostolic succession.

The first example of apostolic succession given in Scripture is in Acts 1:15-26 when Peter as head apostle mandates that he and the apostles choose another apostle to take the place of Judas.

 

[Carlan]

I think we would differ when we get to the Catholic definition of Justification:

"Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent "

I think justification imputes the righteousness of Christ to the believer. In a legal sense where once I was guilty and under God’s wrath, I have now been declared righteous through the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Nothing in me has changed only my standing before the Almighty Judge. Like when my wife and I stood before the minister and he declared us legally married where in seconds before we were unmarried. Or when a judge announces an innocent verdict at court, where at once I was the accused I am now free because Christ has suffered in my place.

Justification is then a one time event imputed by the righteousness of Christ to the sinner and unlike the Catholic doctrine where they mix justification and sactification as a process infused by grace and is continued on the sinners own virtue rather than through the shed blood of Christ. By it then a Catholic moves in and out of salvation by his own actions rather than on the merits of the Cross.

Rocket isn’t this Calvinist thought?.I believe it is a false doctrine. A OSAS doctrine.And it has already been debated here and elsewhere in other threads. So I’m sure you have already covered Catholic belief on it over and over again.Carlan

 

[MacDaddy]

A catechist is a teacher of the doctrines of the faith.
**
Pope John Paul II on Catechesis**
Catechesi Tradendae
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_16101979_catechesi-tradendae_en.html

That must be quite time consuming the preparation aspect of it. I know I have prepared Scripture readings/studies and it is more a blessing to the person studying than it is to those who hear because you can never say everything you wanted and learned.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Luke is writing Theophilus in order to reassure him that what he has been taught is exactly the same as everyone else has been taught since the beginning of the Church’s existence and this is because the Church’s teachings (gospel of Jesus) have been handed down without error. Luke is now making a written account for Theophilus in order to reassure him that no error has been mixed in with truth as it was handed down. Other leaders have also written their congregations in order to reassure them that what they were taught orally is the same exact truth that has been taught since the beginning of the Church.

“In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”

 

[graceandglory]

That must be quite time consuming the preparation aspect of it. I know I have prepared Scripture readings/studies and it is more a blessing to the person studying than it is to those who hear because you can never say everything you wanted and learned.

It is way harder than teaching a bible study. BUT, I can feel confident that I’m not teaching my own interpretations and ideas of scripture, because I am teaching what the Church teaches.

I see one main difference is that it is instruction in the faith, rather than a historical bible lesson. It is teaching people how to be a faithful Christian, how to love God more, and how to be holy, in order that those learning will endure to the end and be saved. It’s not so much a passing on of my bible knowledge so that you can have as much bible knowledge as me.
I don’t know if that makes sense.

 

[SHW]

What is it better to say, the Lord has bought you or look here your salvation draws near?

The Lord paid the blood price for mankind’s freedom (collective redemption/salvation) from the consequences of Adam’s Sin. By His perfect sacrifice which He offered to His Father, He atoned for Adam’s Sin which had alienated all of mankind from God. His sacrifice reconciled all of mankind to God and this reconciliation now gives mankind hope of eternal life. It is not a guarantee of eternal life for every person.

The more perfectly we imitate Christ (follow Him) the **nearer **we get to individual redemption/salvation.

Romans 13:10-14
Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. 11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Luke 21:27-28
Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.

James 4:7-10
Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.

1 Corinthians 4:1-2
Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful.

Colossians 1:21-23
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Since I have been justified, I now must continue in the faith, holy and blameless, and above reproach, and I must not fall away from the faith if I desire to be approved and then presented to His Father in heaven for a crown of (eternal) life. If I fall away, Jesus will not present me to His Father in heaven.

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

If I do not continue in the faith (if I break God’s commandments) then I will be cut off from eternal life.

Romans 11:22
Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

[SHW]

Worship in the spiritual realm is for God alone; any other type of worship of the spiritual nature will violate the first two commandments and the second one particularly. God tells us to honor those who are in earthly authority and even says that pastors who work hard at preaching and teaching are worthy of double honor, but that is at a human and worldly level not the spiritual level. This is why Jesus said the the Father is seeking worshipers who worship Him in spirit and truth.

Worship is worship. Honor is honor. We at the human level are connected to the spiritual level via our souls/hearts/minds.

We worship only the true God with the type of worship reserved for Him alone.

We venerate, honor, and esteem humans as humans, not as gods.

Luke 10:27
So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’

 

[SHW]

And there is a reason quan, that God has allowed it be separated. Because the Church has abandoned the prodical son. Why do you think so many sinners are coming to Christ outside the Church?

**
Because they do not know any better.** God meets a person where they currently are at spiritually, just the same as He met Cornelius the Gentile.

Acts 10:1-4
There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!”
4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?”
So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.

And just the same as He met Saul.

Acts 9:1-5
Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

Eventually, if they allow themselves to be led by Him, He brings them into the fold of His true Church on earth which has been called the Catholic (universal) Church since about the first century A.D.

The Catholic Church was first recorded in St. Ignatius of Antioch letter to the Smyrnaeans. In that Apostolic Letter dated 107 A.D, he wrote;

Chapter 8:
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

 

[Rocket_Man]

The Lord paid the blood price for mankind’s freedom (collective redemption/salvation) from the consequences of Adam’s Sin. By His perfect sacrifice which He offered to His Father, He atoned for Adam’s Sin which had alienated all of mankind from God. His sacrifice reconciled all of mankind to God and this reconciliation now gives mankind hope of eternal life. It is not a guarantee of eternal life for every person.

The more perfectly we imitate Christ (follow Him) the **nearer **we get to individual redemption/salvation.

I’m going to leave you in your own misery so I can go home and spend some time with the family.

 

[SHW]

I do not believe you have a grasp on freewill because it is very difficult to get a handle on. But once you decided by free-will to deny yourself completely before the Lord you put your complete trust in Him, which means you give up your will for a better will, which is the will of God. When you are disobedient to His will, He will chasten you till you come back to His will or He will remove you altogether. So in that since you are bought with a price and the free will you have remaining is disobedience but because the Christian is His He will press His will against that disobedience even to the point of death as the Bible teaches us.

Free will is not a one-time deal. Each and every day of my entire life, I must freely choose to pick up my cross and deny myself in order to be found worthy of Him. I must choose again each day to obey His commandments if I desire to inherit eternal life when I die.

Luke 9:23
Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.

Matthew 10:38
And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

I must resist (flee from) the devil’s temptations each time he tempts me or else he will win my soul away from God.

1 Peter 5:8-9
** Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.** 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.

Peter is telling his flock that everyone is tempted by the devil, but they must resist him and not succumb to his temptations if they desire to remain steadfast in the faith and inherit eternal life when they die.

James 4:7-8
Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

If I listen to the devil and as a result of my listening to him I choose to sin against God’s commandments, then I will receive the same punishment as he does if I do not repent of these sins before I die.

Matthew 13:40-43
Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers,
42 and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

 

[SHW]

What gospel is that? Sounds more like the “not so good “good news””. I would hate to think my Savior would ever forsake me; i didn’t deserve to be in His presence when He rescued me from sin and He knows when He rescued me I would still sin, albeit much less, but He knew what He bought and paid for with His life, so if He can save me in His death how much more can He keep me in His life?

It is the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Luke 13:23-24
Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able Matthew 7:13-14.

It is true that none of us deserved to be redeemed. We humans all inherited Adam’s Sin which made all of us sinners (except for Mary and Jesus). This is why redemption is His free gift to us. No human could ever redeem us from Adam’s Sin. None of our works could ever be holy enough to atone for Adam’s Sin which had alienated us from God (made us enemies of God). Only Jesus, who is both God and Man, could mediate our reconciliation with God. This is why He alone is called the “One Mediator,” but He also intercedes for us now Romans 8:27, and Christians are also strongly admonished to intercede on behalf of others 1 Timothy 2:1-3.

Jesus does not forsake us. We can choose to forsake him any time we desire. He will not force us to love Him.

What does “to love Him” mean?

John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

1 John 2:4
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
**
Only those who keep/obey His commandments actually love Him.** Those that say that they know Him (those who say that they are Christians) must obey His commandments. If they do not, then they are liars.
**
What happens to all liars?**

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

What happens to those who love Him (obey His commandments) until they die?

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

Those who truly love Him and prove their love for Him by obeying His commandments until they die (they endure to the end) are approved by Him and they then inherit the crown of eternal life which He promised to only those who loved Him (obeyed Him) until the end of their lives Hebrews 5:9.

Matthew 24:12-13
And because lawlessness (sinfulness) will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end (of his life on earth) shall be saved.