He who endures to the end will be saved!

[Timothy_Piper]

Wrong, friend.

Whereas, when you read the Scriptures out of context, I can see where you get those ideas. However - the Bible must be read in context. Your notion that you cannot fall away from God if you are a real, genuine Christian goes against the very nature of the Gospel message:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

2 Peter 2:26-27
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

1 Cor. 4:4
"I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me."

1 John 5:13
"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

ALL of these passages refer to true believers.

Wrong friend; is that a rebuttal of substance? You apparently don’t know the Scripture nor the gospel as you demonstrated above. Hard to dialogue with a person who does not understand the Word of God. If you would like; myself and others, like Rocket_Man, can help you in understanding the Gift of God, which is the salvation of the Christian.

Romans 11; this particular verse is a warning, not to believers, but to those who are partaking and may not have the root, which is Christ. He gives the example of Israel as a nation. The key; is the root supporting the branch or not. For the Christian is supported by the root, which is Christ. The branch that is not supported by the root, no root in them, are damned.

Hebrews
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. - Who are the adversaries? Christians or non-Christians? Who sins continually and willfully after hearing the gospel? Christian or non-Christian Apply some common sense and will help you a great deal in discerning the Word.

2 Peter 2:26 doesn’t exist in my Bible; does it yours?
2 Peter 2 - is speaking of false prophets and in the versus you mention; these are ones that know the truth because they heard the truth and went and taught a different truth or false gospel; therefore leading others into a false gospel, which it would be better to never have been born for that person.
Do you understand what a Christian actually is; this wasn’t even in the ball park of describing a Christian in the slightest of manners. I don’t mean to be hard on you, but if you are going to speak concerning God’s Word; He does command us to rightly divide and takes it very serious. Chastening from Him is no fun and I don’t want that for you friend.

1 Corinthians 4:4 - Paul is saying that no man is the judge of ones soul; it is the work of God. In the verse you cite; Paul is saying his conscience is clear and he is not even examining himself and even if he did examine himself and thought to be “clean”; that would not matter either because it is God who knows the heart of the man & justifies; not man.

1 John 5:13 (NAS)
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, ***so that you may know that you have eternal life. ***

1 John 5:13 (Douay-Rheims)
These things I write to you that you may know that you have eternal life: you who believe in the name of the Son of God.

You can’t get anymore secure than this to those who are in Christ.

Final note and a question Elvis;
What do these two passage mean to you? Keep in mind that God is outside of time, this is His view on salvation from eternity perspective or outside of our time perspective.
Romans 8:29-30
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined {to become} conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Tim, before conversion around 15 years ago, I was following my nature to find self gratification in wine, women, and song and every falsehood that springs forth from this type of life style. After loosing my wife, family, and everything I owned through divorce, I ended up in a small room over looking a transient hotel in the inner city. It was here while living among those just like me did Jesus Christ reveal himself to me through His Word.

His Word convicted me of my sin, not just by the Holy Law, but also by the purity and goodness of His nature. Since my sin was go great, I couldn’t even look up at a statue of Jesus that was in a church garden near my room.

Everyday that I live, I know that it is a gift from Him and I am still unworthy to be called His son. Yet, I press on because there something anew in my heart that still sings His song.

You hit the rock of bottoms before being lifted up by the Son of Man…praise God; your zeal should be very very strong; I can tell by strength of your posts. Anything you need brother; ask.

 

[elvisman]

elvis, Paul is talking about his missionary work. You need to back up and read following the verses before hand so you can put the last verse into context.

For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

What does that have to do with anything? The words he wrote are as valid today as they were back then.

Is that how you interpret Scripture - by applying it only to those to whom it was originally written? If so, then NONE of the Bible applies to us.
That is very convoluted logic, my confused friend . . .

 

[elvisman]

***The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; ***the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11 And the testimony is this, that ***God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. ***12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:16-17 (sin leading to death)
God knows what the sin is, it’s not any specific sin, it could be different in any individual case and every case. It could be the straw that broke the camel’s back in the continuing disobedient Christian. Could also be applied to a non-believer who commits a sin of apostasy, such as Galatians 5 or Hebrews 6, and one is praying for their salvation, but it’s too late because God has already made his decision.

Your god is not the God of Christianity if you think he creates people just to damn them to hell. That would make God a monster - and MY God is not a monster.

If you seriously believe that God would send somebody to hell even if they are praying to him for forgiveness - you simply DON’T understand his grace.
It’s NEVER too late to repent until the moment of your death.

 

[elvisman]

2 Peter 2:26 doesn’t exist in my Bible; does it yours?

It was a typo.
You’ll find this particular text in 2 Peter 2:20-21

 

[elvisman]

Wrong friend; is that a rebuttal of substance? You apparently don’t know the Scripture nor the gospel as you demonstrated above. Hard to dialogue with a person who does not understand the Word of God. If you would like; myself and others, like Rocket_Man, can help you in understanding the Gift of God, which is the salvation of the Christian.
Romans 11; this particular verse is a warning, not to believers, but to those who are partaking and may not have the root, which is Christ. He gives the example of Israel as a nation. The key; is the root supporting the branch or not. For the Christian is supported by the root, which is Christ. The branch that is not supported by the root, no root in them, are damned.

HUH?
It doesn;'t matter to WHOM he is speaking. the words apply to ALL.
Remain faithful to Christ or you will be CUT OFF. This is why you can’t understand the concept of mortal sin. That is one of the true tragedies of Protestantism - man-made precepts and traditions based on spritual pride and arrogance.

Hebrews26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. - Who are the adversaries? Christians or non-Christians? Who sins continually and willfully after hearing the gospel? Christian or non-Christian Apply some common sense and will help you a great deal in discerning the Word.

It applies to those who fall AFTER RECEIVING THE KNOWLEDGE OF TRUTH.
Non-Christians DON’T have the knowledge of truth. Talk about not using common sense . . .

2 Peter 2 - is speaking of false prophets and in the versus you mention; these are ones that know the truth because they heard the truth and went and taught a different truth or false gospel; therefore leading others into a false gospel, which it would be better to never have been born for that person.
Do you understand what a Christian actually is; this wasn’t even in the ball park of describing a Christian in the slightest of manners. I don’t mean to be hard on you, but if you are going to speak concerning God’s Word; He does command us to rightly divide and takes it very serious. Chastening from Him is no fun and I don’t want that for you friend.

You have NO grasp of the Scriptures because of your spritual pride. Read SLOWLY:
"For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them."

This is talking about TRUE CHRISTIANS who escaped damnation but returned to their former ways.

1 Corinthians 4:4 - Paul is saying that no man is the judge of ones soul; it is the work of God. In the verse you cite; Paul is saying his conscience is clear and he is not even examining himself and even if he did examine himself and thought to be “clean”; that would not matter either because it is God who knows the heart of the man & justifies; not man.

Paul is stating that HE knows of nothing wrong that he does but that GOD is the final judge.
He is emphasizing - as he does many times - that salvation is NOT a guarantee but our HOPE IF we remain faithful.

Paul preaches the HOPE of salvation (1 Thess 5:8), not the GUARANTEE of it.

 

[Rocket_Man]

If you seriously believe that God would send somebody to hell even if they are praying to him for forgiveness - you simply DON’T understand his grace.
It’s NEVER too late to repent until the moment of your death.

elvis, your comment is in conflict with your earlier interpretation of 1 John 5 as spiritual death.

 

[Rocket_Man]

What does that have to do with anything? The words he wrote are as valid today as they were back then.

The words he wrote

“But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”

Are looking backwards in context to these ealier words he wrote

For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

And those words are looking back into ealier words he wrote

If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

Again, Paul knows that he is running a race like an athelete, the race he is running is preaching the Gospel and harvesting souls for Christ. The prize is an incorruptible crown in heaven similair to the Jesus’s challenge to “lay up your treasures in heaven”. Knowing that he was called to preach the gospel and the rewards from it are in heaven, he becomes a servant to all men, beats his body into subjection, put’s himself under all men, like when Jesus washed the feet of the disciples, so that the gospel isn’t hindered and he’s disqualified to win the prize.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Your god is not the God of Christianity if you think he creates people just to damn them to hell. That would make God a monster - and MY God is not a monster.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Rocket_Man]

It was a typo.
You’ll find this particular text in 2 Peter 2:20-21

And you will find that “false prophets and false teachers” are in view here.

 

[Rocket_Man]

HUH? It doesn;'t matter to he is speaking. the words apply to ALL

It is through God’s kindness to us that we are even able to have this conversation. He hardened Israel for their unbelief and grafted us, the gentile church, into His vine. But we are not the true branches. If we do not continue in His kindness he will also cut us off and graft back in the true branch.

Do you know that it wasn’t anything to do with us, as if we are a special people to Him, that he purposed us to be grafted to the vine, but only to bring His chosen children to envy. So fear and not be arrogant, that we remain in His kindness, else He will cut us and bring back the true branch.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

HUH?
It doesn;'t matter to WHOM he is speaking. the words apply to ALL.
Remain faithful to Christ or you will be CUT OFF. This is why you can’t understand the concept of mortal sin. That is one of the true tragedies of Protestantism - man-made precepts and traditions based on spritual pride and arrogance.

It applies to those who fall AFTER RECEIVING THE KNOWLEDGE OF TRUTH.
Non-Christians DON’T have the knowledge of truth. Talk about not using common sense . . .

Let’s use some common sense Elvis…stick with me here. If someone came to church and heard the gospel, then never came back. Do they have the “head knowledge”? Yes. Are they a Christian? No. What if that person came to church many times and participated on a womens retreat and taught from Scripture. Does this make them a Christian? No. So you see, one can play church, be associated with the root, have the head knowledge, participate and never be a Christian. This is the point. Have you ever known anyone like that or witnessed someone like that? We all have. This is why it is important to sometimes add some common sense to your known experience with the Scripture.

You have NO grasp of the Scriptures because of your spritual pride. Read SLOWLY:
"For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them."

This is talking about TRUE CHRISTIANS who escaped damnation but returned to their former ways.

No Elvis, this is an apostate and they were not Christian because as John said “if they had been of us, they would have remained with us…”

Paul is stating that HE knows of nothing wrong that he does but that GOD is the final judge.
He is emphasizing - as he does many times - that salvation is NOT a guarantee but our HOPE IF we remain faithful.

Paul preaches the HOPE of salvation (1 Thess 5:8), not the GUARANTEE of it.

Elvis, maybe this will help you discern what God has done concerning salvation.
God perspective from eternity, where there is no such thing as time:
Romans 8 -
to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Everything is spoken by Him and in the past tense, common to Greek, because it is so certain of happening it is as though it already happened, which from god’s perspective it has because whatever He purposes comes to pass.

Man’s perspective or lens through “time”:
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. "

“But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory”

“in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.”

“are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood”

“being justified as a gift by His grace”

Here we have mans perspective because it is a life-long process because of “time”, but from God’s it is already completed because He purposed and He completed in eternity.

This is why the nonsense of losing one’s salvation is strictly the human perspective and the result of error in interpretation of Scripture and God’s purpose for the Christian.

Final note: there is a third perspective that combines God’s eternal perspective into man’s time perspective:
“He who began a good work in you will complete it til the day of Christ Jesus”

Here we have God saying it is done; yet in man’s time continuum, not God’s eternal perspective.

I hope this helps you and please do not get pride or arrogance confused with a love for God and His word; I desired to follow Him, completely emptied myself, I pick up my cross daily and I am willing, if the Lord requires, to die for Him.

 

[elvisman]

elvis, your comment is in conflict with your earlier interpretation of 1 John 5 as spiritual death.

Absolutely not.
Spiritual death does NOT mean that you cannot come back to the Lord through the ministry of reconciliation (Matt. 16:19, 18:18, John 20:21-23, 2 Cor. 5:18-19).
That’s a Protestant error.

 

[elvisman]

The words he wrote

“But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”

Are looking backwards in context to these ealier words he wrote

For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

And those words are looking back into ealier words he wrote

If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

Again, Paul knows that he is running a race like an athelete, the race he is running is preaching the Gospel and harvesting souls for Christ. The prize is an incorruptible crown in heaven similair to the Jesus’s challenge to “lay up your treasures in heaven”. Knowing that he was called to preach the gospel and the rewards from it are in heaven, he becomes a servant to all men, beats his body into subjection, put’s himself under all men, like when Jesus washed the feet of the disciples, so that the gospel isn’t hindered and he’s disqualified to win the prize.

**He beats his body to into subjection lest the desires of his body overcome him.
Are you READING the text?

 

[elvisman]

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

**If you’re a Calvinist, just identify yourself as such. ****Calvinism is a cult of men - namely John Calvin. **

Believe what you want - God is not a monster who creates people damned for hell - nor is he a spiritual rapist who forces his love on anybody.

Like I stated before - your god is not the GOD of Christianity.

 

[elvisman]

And you will find that “false prophets and false teachers” are in view here.

I know. ALL Protestant sects teach a partial of false gospel because they reject the fullness of the gospel that Christ gave his Church - the Catholic Church.

Remember what Paul said in 1 Tim. 3:15:
The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Jesus only established ONE Chrcurh - and you aren’t in it if you’re not Catholic.

 

[guanophore]

guan, in my own conversion, it was not this way.

Yes. I undertand and accept that your understanding of your experience is different from what the Apostles believed and taught. It does not make your experience any less authetic and valid, just that your understanding of it is a modern innovation.

I spent many nights and days at end buried in His Word. I would get home at night from work and read until I fell asleep and then wake up and read again. His Word convicted me so great that at times unspeakable groanings would exhume from my being.  There were many tears that flowed down from my cheeks as He washed me through His Word. I began to change. The things I once loved became things I hated. I remember one night standing on top of a river bridge and throwing away all my prized collection of pagan music. He began to transform me before I was baptized many months later.

God has richly blessed you with a powerful conversion experience.

“Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.”

“Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.”

Praise be to God!

Jesus’ washes us in HIs blood. He does this through water, scripture, oil, mud, and anything else He chooses.

 

[guanophore]

This only plays out this way if you put all the spiritual emphasis on the water baptism instead of the real baptism through Him that purifies the heart through His Spirit.

It is not an “either/or” Rocket. The two are together. They have not been separated since Jesus joined the HS to the waters of baptism. He circumcises us without hands (by the HS) through the water. We are buried with HIm in His death.

If He is continously sactifying the believers heart, how can one turn back. This is a new and better covenant than the old given to Israel. Now we can say with confidence “All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.”

God has created man in His own image, in His likeness. This means we have the ability to chooose. The fact that He places His Spirit within is, giving us a new heart, does not remove our ability to choose.

We can be cut off from grace, severed from the vine, thrown out and burned, lose our saltness.

If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

If we deny HIm, He will deny us.

 

[elvisman]

Let’s use some common sense Elvis…stick with me here. If someone came to church and heard the gospel, then never came back. Do they have the “head knowledge”? Yes. Are they a Christian? No. What if that person came to church many times and participated on a womens retreat and taught from Scripture. Does this make them a Christian? No. So you see, one can play church, be associated with the root, have the head knowledge, participate and never be a Christian. This is the point. Have you ever known anyone like that or witnessed someone like that? We all have. This is why it is important to sometimes add some common sense to your known experience with the Scripture.
No Elvis, this is an apostate and they were not Christian because as John said “if they had been of us, they would have remained with us…”

Your mistake, though is that John did not write this – PETER did.
John was speaking of an entirely different situation.
Peter was speaking of those who believe, then fall away.

Timothy_Piper:
Elvis, maybe this will help you discern what God has done concerning salvation.
God perspective from eternity, where there is no such thing as time:
Romans 8 -
to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Everything is spoken by Him and in the past tense, common to Greek, because it is so certain of happening it is as though it already happened, which from god’s perspective it has because whatever He purposes comes to pass.

Man’s perspective or lens through “time”:
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. "

“But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory”

“in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.”

“are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood”

“being justified as a gift by His grace”

Here we have mans perspective because it is a life-long process because of “time”, but from God’s it is already completed because He purposed and He completed in eternity.

This is why the nonsense of losing one’s salvation is strictly the human perspective and the result of error in interpretation of Scripture and God’s purpose for the Christian.

Final note: there is a third perspective that combines God’s eternal perspective into man’s time perspective:
“He who began a good work in you will complete it til the day of Christ Jesus”

Here we have God saying it is done; yet in man’s time continuum, not God’s eternal perspective.

I hope this helps you and please do not get pride or arrogance confused with a love for God and His word; I desired to follow Him, completely emptied myself, I pick up my cross daily and I am willing, if the Lord requires, to die for Him.

You make the neophyte error in thinking that you were saved when Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world.****
You’re confusing REDEMTION with SALVATION.

**Jesus redeemed the world by his work on the cross. He PAID for us. We are only fully saved when we are gone from this world and have died in God’s grace, having cooperated with that grace which is neither forced on us OR held back from us.

****Tell me something - you *seem *to have a grasp on heaven being outside of time.
Do you agree that the Catholic Church unnecessarily sacrifices Jesus at each mass?

 

[Justy90]

So, do you believe that if you do go to confession that that is all that is necessary to be saved? It seems to me that we are saved by grace through faith. Not by anything we do. But by what Jesus did for us.

Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

AMEN!