Head Covering During Mass

[beckers]

Wrong, I was making an aalogy to other things that Catholics ignore, I never said they carried the same moral weight and nor do I think they do. Abortion cannot be compared to head coverings in any way other then to point out that many Catholics ignore the fact that abortion is strongly condemned and it a mortal sin. Now think about that, if Catholics are willing to commit mortal sins freely (abortion, birth control, condoms, fornication, etc.), then they sure won’t give a thought to wearing head coverings (which is not a grave matter). That was my point of using those comparisons, I was NOT equating those issues.

My comments about Catholics ignoring rules and teachings is NOT directed only to women, but to all Catholics, men and women alike. Catholics today (probably 80%) reject either some or a great many teachings of the faith, that includes men and women.

I have no desire either way for head coverings, other then I would like to know whether they are required or not. I think the Church owes us a definitive statement on that and on many other issues.

What you have no desire either way for a head covering? Then what are you trying to argue? It now seems that you are curious if the church requires it where before it seemed like you have been throwing canon law out like you knew the answer and just wanted Rome to agree to your view. I am confused now by your position.

And were are you getting your figures about 80%.You can’t tell how faithful someone is from the outside. You do not know someone heart,soul and love for God. You are not the judger. We are all on different journeys so what you may see as a great evil in someone else may in fact be a turning point of their journey. God doesn’t forget his childern and has some plans for us. We may have to hit rock bottom to see those plans but when we get there we realize God has been there the whole time showering us with mercy and love. If God can look past our sins then we should do the same. We should pray for each other instead of pointing fingers saying your not “faithful enough”.

 

[Tom317]

What you have no desire either way for a head covering? Then what are you trying to argue? It now seems that you are curious if the church requires it where before it seemed like you have been throwing canon law out like you knew the answer and just wanted Rome to agree to your view. I am confused now by your position.

And were are you getting your figures about 80%.You can’t tell how faithful someone is from the outside. You do not know someone heart,soul and love for God. You are not the judger. We are all on different journeys so what you may see as a great evil in someone else may in fact be a turning point of their journey. God doesn’t forget his childern and has some plans for us. We may have to hit rock bottom to see those plans but when we get there we realize God has been there the whole time showering us with mercy and love. If God can look past our sins then we should do the same. We should pray for each other instead of pointing fingers saying your not “faithful enough”.

Right, I have no desire either way and I never said I did. I do have a desire to know whether or not head coverings are still required. I have never felt that head coverings rise to a level of grave matter. I do feel it is important to follow what the Church says, and it is very much unclear regarding head coverings. I come from the perspective of Canon Law because I feel there are many Canons that support the argument that head coverings are still required.

It is quite easy to see where the “80%” comes from. Surveys tell us that at least 70% of Catholics no longer believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (which makes them essentially Protestants); only 5-10% go to confession at least once a year, only 15% attend Mass every Sunday and on Holy Days, Mass attendance in general is at 20-25% in nearly all parishes in the United States (and one thrid or less in Europe), then include all of the known huge percentages of Catholics who divorce and remaary without a declaration of nullity, abortion, birth control, living together, fornication, etc., it is takes no leap to see that, at best, 20% of Catholics are faithful.

 

[Margita]

Surveys tell us that

It would be interesting to see this survey, can you please give more specific info about it? (post a link, maybe?) Thanks!

 

[Tom317]

beckers,

There is a point you need to consider: There is a differnece between having “some” faith and “love” for God/Jesus, versus being truly and actually faithful to Christ by following His ONe True Church–The Roman Catholic Church. I never deny people the faith they have because I cannot read their hearts or minds. I can, however, discern the fact that at best 80% of so-called Catholics reject some or many teachings of the faith.

 

[Tom317]

It would be interesting to see this survey, can you please give more specific info about it? (post a link, maybe?) Thanks!

They are freely available on the net.

 

[Tom317]

Ave Maria University Communications
by Father John A. Hardon, S. J.

*One of the most alarming statistics reported recently in the Catholic Press **was that approximately 70 percent of Catholics do not believe or do not know that by the action of the priest during Mass Jesus Christ becomes fully present in the Holy Eucharist. **With Us Today argues that this widespread disbelief and misunderstanding is the outgrowth of misleading doctrines that have been circulating among certain theologians for a good part of the twentieth century. Pope Paul VI was so alarmed by these mistaken theories of the Eucharist that he took the unprecedented step of publishing his Mysterium Fidei (The Mystery of Faith, 1965) while the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council were still sitting. It stands as the only papal encyclical devoted exclusively to defending the Real Presence. Moreover, the New Order of the Mass promulgated by Paul VI can be seen as his attempt to strengthen and renew popular Eucharistic piety, against this backdrop of misinformation.

But the effect of Pope Paul’s efforts to date has been, says Fr. Hardon, that “every false opinion about the Holy Eucharist that Pope Paul VI mentioned — every one — has been amplified and consulted among the faithful.” The spread of these falsehoods, argues Fr. Hardon, has done much to bring about the crisis of the Church in the Western World.

We now have the “desacralization of the Mass, the hidden tabernacles, the iconoclasm perpetuated on Catholic churches, the reduction of hundreds of churches to mere social meeting halls and the casual handling of the Sacred Species.” *

 

[Jean_Anthony]

I’ve reopened this thread, due to more than one request for it. Please stay on topic and be nice.

 

[justthefacts]

Guys telling your wives they MUST do something such as wear a veil because you are the head of the house, and what you say goes, even though you are not old enough to remember the what-for and the when: I think you’re wrong in this regard. I don’t think your stance is Catholic. I think you have some sort of romantic attachment to something that was not even common in this country until Jackie Kennedy made it popular (and she wore a WHITE mantilla despite marriage when she went to Sunday Mass- it stood out well on her beautiful dark hair).

what a lovely piece of ad-hominen and strawman argumentation

 

[beckers]

Ave Maria University Communications
by Father John A. Hardon, S. J.

*One of the most alarming statistics reported recently in the Catholic Press **was that approximately 70 percent of Catholics do not believe or do not know that by the action of the priest during Mass Jesus Christ becomes fully present in the Holy Eucharist. ***With Us Today argues that this widespread disbelief and misunderstanding is the outgrowth of misleading doctrines that have been circulating among certain theologians for a good part of the twentieth century. Pope Paul VI was so alarmed by these mistaken theories of the Eucharist that he took the unprecedented step of publishing his Mysterium Fidei (The Mystery of Faith, 1965) while the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council were still sitting. It stands as the only papal encyclical devoted exclusively to defending the Real Presence. Moreover, the New Order of the Mass promulgated by Paul VI can be seen as his attempt to strengthen and renew popular Eucharistic piety, against this backdrop of misinformation.

*But the effect of Pope Paul’s efforts to date has been, says Fr. Hardon, that “every false opinion about the Holy Eucharist that Pope Paul VI mentioned — every one — has been amplified and consulted among the faithful.” The spread of these falsehoods, argues Fr. Hardon, has done much to bring about the crisis of the Church in the Western World. *

*We now have the “desacralization of the Mass, the hidden tabernacles, the iconoclasm perpetuated on Catholic churches, the reduction of hundreds of churches to mere social meeting halls and the casual handling of the Sacred Species.” *

Are you blaming the people for this? And where are the shepherds? If we are not educated on the teachings of the church then how are we to know? The average person in the pews is not knowledgeable in canon law and may have had horrible or no religious education. It’s possible. Heck you could have thrown me into that category until college. Education is the key!

This is why i say to the OP or anyone who wants to get your wives to wear a head covering. Give her the infomation and then back off. Let the holy Spirit work on her. You can’t demand or force something spiritual on someone because then it loses it’s meaning.

 

[Tom317]

Are you blaming the people for this? And where are the shepherds? If we are not educated on the teachings of the church then how are we to know? The average person in the pews is not knowledgeable in canon law and may have had horrible or no religious education. It’s possible. Heck you could have thrown me into that category until college. Education is the key!

This is why i say to the OP or anyone who wants to get your wives to wear a head covering. Give her the infomation and then back off. Let the holy Spirit work on her. You can’t demand or force something spiritual on someone because then it loses it’s meaning.

I will not respond to this because the thread was closed for being off topic. If you would like, you can send me a PM and I will respond to that.

As for the OP, no-one is saying wives should be forced to do anything.

 

[beckers]

beckers,

There is a point you need to consider: There is a differnece between having “some” faith and “love” for God/Jesus, versus being truly and actually faithful to Christ by following His ONe True Church–The Roman Catholic Church. I never deny people the faith they have because I cannot read their hearts or minds. I can, however, discern the fact that at best 80% of so-called Catholics reject some or many teachings of the faith.

I understand there is a difference between having faith and love for God and being faithful to his teachings. It’s called sin. All of us fail at it everyday. Which is why we have a savior. When going to confession two people may commit the same sin. It may not seem to be the same level of sin from the outside but depending on where you are in your faith journey it could have the same damaging effect. You may see it as someone rejecting the church teaching but what about those learning about the teachings and fighting the internal fight between society and God? those people may be rejecting the teachings on the surface but changing. I will give my fellow man the benefit of the doubt. I will pray for their continue conversion.

It’s good to hear that you acknowledge that we can’t know the depth of each other faith based upon our outwards signs. I was afraid that people would think of me one way because i choose to wear a head covering.

And why are people rejecting the teachings of the faith? You want to blame the indivual people in the pews go ahead but i blame all of us. Our society has created people who are a “me first” society and that instant gratification is the key to happiness. We’ve also been drummed into our head that if we can’t feel it or touch it or understand it then it doesn’t exisit. The devil is doing very well at convience the world that he doesn’t exist and that God doesn’t either.

 

[Tom317]

I understand there is a difference between having faith and love for God and being faithful to his teachings. It’s called sin. All of us fail at it everyday. Which is why we have a savior. When going to confession two people may commit the same sin. It may not seem to be the same level of sin from the outside but depending on where you are in your faith journey it could have the same damaging effect. You may see it as someone rejecting the church teaching but what about those learning about the teachings and fighting the internal fight between society and God? those people may be rejecting the teachings on the surface but changing. I will give my fellow man the benefit of the doubt. I will pray for their continue conversion.

It’s good to hear that you acknowledge that we can’t know the depth of each other faith based upon our outwards signs. I was afraid that people would think of me one way because i choose to wear a head covering.

And why are people rejecting the teachings of the faith? You want to blame the indivual people in the pews go ahead but i blame all of us. Our society has created people who are a “me first” society and that instant gratification is the key to happiness. We’ve also been drummed into our head that if we can’t feel it or touch it or understand it then it doesn’t exisit. The devil is doing very well at convience the world that he doesn’t exist and that God doesn’t either.

Again, this thread was closed once because it was off topic (which was probably my fault for talking about these “other” faith matters). I will not be cause of a second closing, so if you would like to discuss this, either open another thread, or pm me.

Thanks.

 

[beckers]

I will not respond to this because the thread was closed for being off topic. If you would like, you can send me a PM and I will respond to that.

As for the OP, no-one is saying wives should be forced to do anything.

I think it is actually on topic. We are discussion that there is canon law saying that head coverings are part of the church. Well if the average person in the pews doesn’t know this then how can you claim that women are ignoring a rule? For example one of the things about Mortal sin is that you know it’s wrong. So women can’t be just “ignoring” a rule if they don’t know it exist in the first place. This is why I am asking where are the shepherds? Were are the teachers? Does it fall to the husbands to correct their wives and teach their daughters? Is the priest to tell the congregation? The pope to tell the world? Who’s responsible?

 

[beckers]

Again, this thread was closed once because it was off topic (which was probably my fault for talking about these “other” faith matters). I will not be cause of a second closing, so if you would like to discuss this, either open another thread, or pm me.

Thanks.

Well if we can’t dicuss anything then i guess there is no point to this thread.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I think it is actually on topic. We are discussion that there is canon law saying that head coverings are part of the church. Well if the average person in the pews doesn’t know this then how can you claim that women are ignoring a rule? For example one of the things about Mortal sin is that you know it’s wrong. So women can’t be just “ignoring” a rule if they don’t know it exist in the first place. This is why I am asking where are the shepherds? Were are the teachers? Does it fall to the husbands to correct their wives and teach their daughters? Is the priest to tell the congregation? The pope to tell the world? Who’s responsible?

It would be great if some of those things you mention actually happened! Can you imagine if men actually did lead their families in the faith like they used to? Can you imagine if all Catholics- laity, priests and bishops were obedient to the Pope and the Magisterium? What if the Church did speak out on the head covering issue and cleared it up once and for all? Would women everywhere obey?

 

[beckers]

I would be great if some of those things you mention actually happened! Can you imagine if men actually did lead their families in the faith like they used to? Can you imagine if all Catholics- laity, priests and bishops were obedient to the Pope and the Magisterium? What if the Church did speak out on the head covering issue and cleared it up once and for all? Would women everywhere obey?

AMEN! We need better education.

I had know idea about headcoverings until last year and just yesterday a guy friend asked why do women wear veils. He doesn’t know and i bet a lot of people don’t know the beauty of the veil. I think the lack of knowledge is the key.

My friends ask me what is the number one thing i am looking for in a man and it’s easy to answer. A man who can be the spiritual head of my household and would love and care about my soul enough to tell me i was doing something wrong even if it meant upsetting me.

 

[paramedicgirl]

AMEN! We need better education.

I had know idea about headcoverings until last year and just yesterday a guy friend asked why do women wear veils. He doesn’t know and i bet a lot of people don’t know the beauty of the veil. I think the lack of knowledge is the key.

I wear one whenever I go to the TLM, but at my local Novus Ordo parish, I don’t, because I would feel really conspicuous. I would be the only one there doing so, and at this point, I would be uncomfortable with it.

 

[beckers]

I wear one whenever I go to the TLM, but at my local Novus Ordo parish, I don’t, because I would feel really conspicuous. I would be the only one there doing so, and at this point, I would be uncomfortable with it.

I thought the same thing on Sunday. I had to go to evening mass at a church that i heard swings a little to the liberal side of catholism.The week before I didn’t wear it to a NO mass and i felt werid so i just felt like i had to wear it. I sat all the way in the back simple because i didn’t want to be a distraction. It felt werid. like i was embrassed to wear it which is not how i feel. I feel like the Lord is calling me to be his handmaiden and just because i might feel uncomfortable doesn’t mean i shouldn’t wear it. Afterall I am not trying to win a popularity contest but to please and honor my Lord.

 

[Tom317]

I think it is actually on topic. We are discussion that there is canon law saying that head coverings are part of the church. Well if the average person in the pews doesn’t know this then how can you claim that women are ignoring a rule? For example one of the things about Mortal sin is that you know it’s wrong. So women can’t be just “ignoring” a rule if they don’t know it exist in the first place. This is why I am asking where are the shepherds? Were are the teachers? Does it fall to the husbands to correct their wives and teach their daughters? Is the priest to tell the congregation? The pope to tell the world? Who’s responsible?

I did not say women were ignoring the rule about head coverings, I was talking about other issues.

Most women today have no clue about head coverings.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I thought the same thing on Sunday. I had to go to evening mass at a church that i heard swings a little to the liberal side of catholism.The week before I didn’t wear it to a NO mass and i felt werid so i just felt like i had to wear it. I sat all the way in the back simple because i didn’t want to be a distraction. It felt werid. like i was embrassed to wear it which is not how i feel. I feel like the Lord is calling me to be his handmaiden and just because i might feel uncomfortable doesn’t mean i shouldn’t wear it. Afterall I am not trying to win a popularity contest but to please and honor my Lord.

Good for you! I hope I can get more comfortable at my NO parish, but I think the problem is, that I have been going there for eleven years, and if I suddenly start showing up wearing a mantilla, people will wonder what I’m trying to prove. I guess that’s part of the humility lesson, though, isn’t it? I know that if we move to another area, and there is no TLM to go to, I will have no problem showing up at the first NO Mass wearing a head covering.