Health care- what's this guy supposed to do?

[Orogeny]

Tim, I think the guy in the Frontline episode is glad he is alive. And, provided he doesn’t have another heart attack before Medicare kicks in, he may very well keep the house he is in now.

Actually, if I read the transcript correctly, the house belongs to his mother, so it is probably safe.

The point is, that his predicament simply does not happen in countries like Germany that have government controlled health insurance. His predicament is unique to the United States among Western 1st world countries. The question is, can we in the US do better with the way health insurance is provided to our countrymen.

Yes we can, but I have very severe doubts that the government can do so. After all, you only need to look at Medicare to see how bad the government can mess up a program.

Regarding Germany, one of the reasons they have the money to do what they do is that they have the US paying a lot of money for military bases there.

I agree, our health care system did an excellent job saving this man’s life.

That is why I think that the debate should be about insurance reform and not healthcare reform. This really isn’t about healthcare.

Peace

Tim

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Tim, I think the guy in the Frontline episode is glad he is alive. And, provided he doesn’t have another heart attack before Medicare kicks in, he may very well keep the house he is in now.
The point is, that his predicament simply does not happen in countries like Germany that have government controlled health insurance. His predicament is unique to the United States among Western 1st world countries. The question is, can we in the US do better with the way health insurance is provided to our countrymen.
I agree, our health care system did an excellent job saving this man’s life.

Ella,

I have to take issue with the bolded quote. For example, cancer survival rates are a lot lower in Europe and Canada than in the US. (See firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/2009/07/21/most-cancer-survival-rates-in-usa-better-than-europe-and-canada/ as a start)

Part of the trade of is access to timely and effective treatments and costs to patients.

I’d rather be a cancer survivor (and so would my family and friends) and $200,000 in debt, than dead.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Ella,

I have to take issue with the bolded quote. For example, cancer survival rates are a lot lower in Europe and Canada than in the US. (See firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/2009/07/21/most-cancer-survival-rates-in-usa-better-than-europe-and-canada/ as a start)

Part of the trade of is access to timely and effective treatments and costs to patients.

I’d rather be a cancer survivor (and so would my family and friends) and $200,000 in debt, than dead.

What about being a cancer surviver and homeless? Quite frankly knowing what my abilities are and are not, If I survive cancer to become homeless ill be dead very soon from homelessness anyway.

 

[Ella]

Ella,

I have to take issue with the bolded quote. For example, cancer survival rates are a lot lower in Europe and Canada than in the US. (See firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/2009/07/21/most-cancer-survival-rates-in-usa-better-than-europe-and-canada/ as a start)

Part of the trade of is access to timely and effective treatments and costs to patients.

I’d rather be a cancer survivor (and so would my family and friends) and $200,000 in debt, than dead.

Hmmm. US has lower life span but higher cancer survivability rates (in regards to certain cancers - not all of them - and counting only those who actually have access to treatment).
According to this graph: nationmaster.com/graph/hea_dea_fro_can-health-death-from-cancer
the U.S. was middle in the pack.

The article lumps together Canada and Britain with other countries’ health care systems as though they are all similar. They are not.

If Germany, Switzerland and France can provide universal health care and good cancer survival rates then we can do even better in the U.S. We can use their data, and study their systems, and make our own system that is better.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Hmmm. US has lower life span but higher cancer survivability rates (in regards to certain cancers - not all of them - and counting only those who actually have access to treatment).
According to this graph: nationmaster.com/graph/hea_dea_fro_can-health-death-from-cancer
the U.S. was middle in the pack.

The article lumps together Canada and Britain with other countries’ health care systems as though they are all similar. They are not.

If Germany, Switzerland and France can provide universal health care and good cancer survival rates then we can do even better in the U.S. We can use their data, and study their systems, and make our own system that is better.

Again, life expectancy data is flawed/biased:
current.com/items/91151576_political-bias-in-who-health-system-rankings.htm (4th paragraph)
thefreemanonline.org/featured/ranking-the-us-health-care-system/#

I also read on a CAF thread recently, that Americans tend to drive a lot more, and the driving age is younger here. And with this, more accidents occur. I believe if we take accidental death out of the equations the US is #3 in life expectancy. (Trying to look for a wsj.com article I saw once).

Again we can cherry pick all the stats we want, however, the CCC also speaks against subsidary which is what socialized medicine is.

 

[Ella]

Again, life expectancy data is flawed/biased:
current.com/items/91151576_political-bias-in-who-health-system-rankings.htm (4th paragraph)
thefreemanonline.org/featured/ranking-the-us-health-care-system/#

I also read on a CAF thread recently, that Americans tend to drive a lot more, and the driving age is younger here. And with this, more accidents occur. I believe if we take accidental death out of the equations the US is #3 in life expectancy. (Trying to look for a wsj.com article I saw once).

Again we can cherry pick all the stats we want, however, the CCC also speaks against subsidary which is what socialized medicine is.

Are Italy and France less Catholic than the U.S. because they have socialized medicine?

 

[St_Francis]

… the CCC also speaks against subsidary which is what socialized medicine is.

I think you are using the wrong word here. The Catholic Church believes in subsidiarity, which is allowing the smallest unit possible in society to take care of things in relation to whom is affected.

And this is *not * what socialised medicine in the US would be.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Are Italy and France less Catholic than the U.S. because they have socialized medicine?

You either are Catholic or you aren’t.

The church has given much latitude on how healthcare can be delivered - as long as it falls within the prescribed framework of the church.

The Church warns against the dangers of pure socialism, capitalism and communism.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I think you are using the wrong word here. The Catholic Church believes in subsidiarity, which is allowing the smallest unit possible in society to take care of things in relation to whom is affected.

And this is *not * what socialised medicine in the US would be.

This is what happens when who type things late

However, you are correct. What is being proposed is that the Federal government takes a larger role in health insurance, as opposed to local or state governments and charity.

 

[gamewell45]

I’m really amazed after watching this thread over the past few days.

What amazes me is how some of the people in here will go to no ends to save the life of an unborn child, yet once the child is born, they could care less what happens to it down the road.

 

[St_Francis]

I’m really amazed after watching this thread over the past few days.

What amazes me is how some of the people in here will go to no ends to save the life of an unborn child, yet once the child is born, they could care less what happens to it down the road.

You do realize that the Catholic Church is the largest charity in the world?

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Again, life expectancy data is flawed/biased:
current.com/items/91151576_political-bias-in-who-health-system-rankings.htm (4th paragraph)
thefreemanonline.org/featured/ranking-the-us-health-care-system/#

I also read on a CAF thread recently, that Americans tend to drive a lot more, and the driving age is younger here. And with this, more accidents occur. I believe if we take accidental death out of the equations the US is #3 in life expectancy. (Trying to look for a wsj.com article I saw once).

Again we can cherry pick all the stats we want, however, the CCC also speaks against subsidary which is what socialized medicine is.

I think you misunderstand what subsidiarity means: it is the principle that matters ought to be overseen by the least centralized authority possible. It is the opposite of socialism (from a governmental standpoint), and the Church is strongly in favor of it. From the CCC:

1894 In accordance with the principle of subsidiarity, neither the state nor any larger society should substitute itself for the initiative and responsibility of individuals and intermediary bodies.

Peace,
Dante

 

[DanteAlighieri]

I’m really amazed after watching this thread over the past few days.

What amazes me is how some of the people in here will go to no ends to save the life of an unborn child, yet once the child is born, they could care less what happens to it down the road.

Why do you think that, merely because someone believes that individuals – not society or the government – have the primary responsibility for their own well-being, that person does not care about other people? It is a moral obligation for individuals to help one another; the government should stay out of the way and let true charity (i.e., love) help people in need. Forced contributions for “the greater good” only breed a sense of entitlement on one side and of resentment on the other.

Comparing an uninsured adult to an unborn baby is absurd – the unborn are DEFENSELESS, and if we don’t stand up for them, they are doomed. Please think your accusations through before you sling them at people.

Peace,
Dante

 

[gamewell45]

You do realize that the Catholic Church is the largest charity in the world?

Irrespective of whether or not the Catholic Church is the largest charity or not has nothing to do with the observation; The posters in here I’m sure do not speak for the Catholic Church, but rather as members of the church. Its just a very sad commentary on the priorities of life by some of the posters here.

 

[gamewell45]

Why do you think that, merely because someone believes that individuals – not society or the government – have the primary responsibility for their own well-being, that person does not care about other people? It is a moral obligation for individuals to help one another; the government should stay out of the way and let true charity (i.e., love) help people in need. Forced contributions for “the greater good” only breed a sense of entitlement on one side and of resentment on the other.

Comparing an uninsured adult to an unborn baby is absurd – the unborn are DEFENSELESS, and if we don’t stand up for them, they are doomed. Please think your accusations through before you sling them at people.

Peace,
Dante

Just an observation; you can come up with any excuse you like, but it doesn’t change the facts.

 

[St_Francis]

Irrespective of whether or not the Catholic Church is the largest charity or not has nothing to do with the observation; The posters in here I’m sure do not speak for the Catholic Church, but rather as members of the church. Its just a very sad commentary on the priorities of life by some of the posters here.

Check again, conservatives give more to charity than liberals do.

 

[Orogeny]

Just an observation; you can come up with any excuse you like, but it doesn’t change the facts.

And what facts would you be referring to?

Peace

Tim

 

[ComputerGeek25]

I’m really amazed after watching this thread over the past few days.

What amazes me is how some of the people in here will go to no ends to save the life of an unborn child, yet once the child is born, they could care less what happens to it down the road.

What amazes me is that when some people disagree over a course of action and try to have a reasonable debate, others have to resort to ad hominem attacks.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Just an observation; you can come up with any excuse you like, but it doesn’t change the facts.

The truth is not an excuse, no matter what disparaging comments you might make in an order to discredit it.

Peace,
Dante

 

[aspawloski4th]

Why do you think that, merely because someone believes that individuals – not society or the government – have the primary responsibility for their own well-being, that person does not care about other people? It is a moral obligation for individuals to help one another; the government should stay out of the way and let true charity (i.e., love) help people in need. Forced contributions for “the greater good” only breed a sense of entitlement on one side and of resentment on the other.

Comparing an uninsured adult to an unborn baby is absurd – the unborn are DEFENSELESS, and if we don’t stand up for them, they are doomed. Please think your accusations through before you sling them at people.

Peace,
Dante

The fact is when you speak of “charity” there isn’t enough money to be given away as chrity to do what is needed for true healthcare. The current system is causing many to loose their lives, or loose their homes, while bing isurance company CEO’s get rich. Talk about misplaces priorities.