Health Care

[royal_archer]

Hmmm, I laugh at that statement spoiled as a child. I’m the oldest of 8. I was free babysitting, something my other siblings never had to do. I was told to set the example for the younger siblings, when I asked who my example was I was belted a good one for merely talking back. All through high school, I had to either tend to a garden or chop/split firewood, before homework which suffered because the multitasking explaoited my learning disabilities…

Oh I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you had to do chores as a child!

I didnt get a car till I was 19, because I had to buy it and insure it myself, without help, while paying 80 dollar aweek room and board, this was back in the 1980s by the way. A good thing I got my car when I did , I had to drive myself to the doctor around my 20th birthday because I had severe pneumonia, If I didn’t have a car yet I’d likely be dead now. Don’t tell me about the hard life young lady, I have more battle scars than you could ever imagine on me.

Oh you didn’t have a car till you were 19! poor you you must have had to ride a bus or bike prior to that like the rest of us.

Who made you the final arbritor of whats essential and not? What give you the idea what is essential to one is the same for all? Having been in a school for the emotionally impaired for 9 of my years of schooling I know that not everyones needs are the same. This is 2009 and not 1009. We realizie there are other needs than the one’s that keep the heart pumping.

such as my need (prior to marriage) to date a super model? after all my needs are different from yours.

Us enlighteened people realize that living death is worse than dying. I would love to have a good job. I see things everyday I’d love to have and can truely appreciate if I did. My being unemployed has no connection whatsoever to wanting to work, and like those who think like you had better start understanding that.

If you realy want to work then do so, no one is stoping you, However many are not working because they are holding out for some easy/fun job they have no chance of getting.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Please stick to the topic of the thread.
Thank you.

 

[o_mlly]

No, it’s not a right… It is however the duty of every healthy person to provide health care to those in need. This doesn’t have to mean “government run health care”, but it does mean we should always be striving to ensure all those who need care are able to receive it.

I think the logic is this post is contradictory. Every right has a cooresponding duty. If one claims a duty to provide exists then, necessarily, a right to have must exist.

Yes, we all have a right to ordinary health care. In justice, all have a contributory obligation to the common good (health of citizens). Society’s distributive obligation provides, in as much as it exists, health care for its citizens.

Health insurance is merely one of many means to finance health care and often muddles the argument about the end - providing health care.
Peace,
O’Malley

 

[Arwen037]

There can be a duty without a right. The church doesn’t have a right to our money, but it is our Christian duty to give. Those in need don’t have a right to our time, but we have a Christian duty to volunteer. Our teachers don’t have a right to completed homework assignments, but as students our duty is to finish our homework.

And just because something is a right, doesn’t mean that it should be enforceable by law. Parents have a right to give their children chores. Does that mean we should make it illegal for children to not do their chores?

And asp, you proved my point. The fact that those things mean you’ve had a “hard life” proves someone spoiled you. Those are a part of most people’s lives.

 

[aspawloski4th]

There can be a duty without a right. The church doesn’t have a right to our money, but it is our Christian duty to give. Those in need don’t have a right to our time, but we have a Christian duty to volunteer. Our teachers don’t have a right to completed homework assignments, but as students our duty is to finish our homework.

And just because something is a right, doesn’t mean that it should be enforceable by law. Parents have a right to give their children chores. Does that mean we should make it illegal for children to not do their chores?

And asp, you proved my point. The fact that those things mean you’ve had a “hard life” proves someone spoiled you. Those are a part of most people’s lives.

Chopping wood on 95 degree days. My family’s home is on an 1/2 acre of hill and I mowed it on the only 100 dregree day in Grand Rapids in my life time, which could of killed a lot of people. Have you mowed a lawn with a push mower on a 100 dgreeday with 75 degree dewpoint? If the answer is no, you have no credibility on spoiled and not spoiled. The only time I ever got " spoiled" is when I was with my grandparents, and that is a grandparent’s job to spoil grandchildren anyway, that is univerally accepted whether you accept it or not. Even the pastor of our parish told my dad not to have me do a job on a day like that again. You have a sick obsession with making sure every little thing on this earth is earned. Quite franky I do not trust people with extreme points of view like yours. You talk like you want to go back to the days of feudalism and living on the manor, which quite frankly is a meaningless and worthless way of living. Back to health care Healthcare is supposed to be a way to make a living! Not a fianancial killing, right now its killing those who have the misfortune of not making a financial killing!, While greedy insurance exceutives make money hand over fist. Profiting off of some one;s misfortune is a sin. It’s time to put the Health insurance industry racket to a bloody end. It would be fine with me if all the insurance bigwig accounts were raided and spent on much needed cancer treatments.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Oh I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you had to do chores as a child! Oh you didn’t have a car till you were 19! poor you you must have had to ride a bus or bike prior to that like the rest of us. such as my need (prior to marriage) to date a super model? after all my needs are different from yours.

If you realy want to work then do so, no one is stoping you, However many are not working because they are holding out for some easy/fun job they have no chance of getting.

Wierd chore no one else I ever knew ever did. Most people have a car when they are 16. I have a balance problem that makes riding a bike for me much harder than most people. Don’t say ride a bike “like the rest of us” Most people dont’ ride bikes, in 10 degree, -20 windchills like what happens here all winter.

 

[Arwen037]

Chopping wood on 95 degree days. My family’s home is on an 1/2 acre of hill and I mowed it on the only 100 dregree day in Grand Rapids in my life time, which could of killed a lot of people. Have you mowed a lawn with a push mower on a 100 dgreeday with 75 degree dewpoint? If the answer is no, you have no credibility on spoiled and not spoiled. The only time I ever got " spoiled" is when I was with my grandparents, and that is a grandparent’s job to spoil grandchildren anyway, that is univerally accepted whether you accept it or not. Even the pastor of our parish told my dad not to have me do a job on a day like that again. You have a sick obsession with making sure every little thing on this earth is earned. Quite franky I do not trust people with extreme points of view like yours. You talk like you want to go back to the days of feudalism and living on the manor, which quite frankly is a meaningless and worthless way of living. Back to health care Healthcare is supposed to be a way to make a living! Not a fianancial killing, right now its killing those who have the misfortune of not making a financial killing!, While greedy insurance exceutives make money hand over fist. Profiting off of some one;s misfortune is a sin. It’s time to put the Health insurance industry racket to a bloody end. It would be fine with me if all the insurance bigwig accounts were raided and spent on much needed cancer treatments.

No one spoiled my, not even my grandparents.

It is their right to charge what they want. And it is other’s rights to find a different doctor who wants to be competitive. And we’ve already had this “profiting off one’s misfortune” argument, and it’s bs. Everyone profits off other’s misfortune. Counselors, auto repair workers, TV repairmen, farmers, meterologists (people got sick of the bad side effects of not knowing the weather). You want everyone in health care to work for free. You want the people who make the MRI machines to work for free. You want everyone making medicine to work for free. I don’t know who is allowed to make a profit in your screwed up view of the world. You want to go back to the barter system? And you can’t talk about morals when you encourage murder (remember, you wanted all the insurance CEOs to be hung until their bodies fell out of the nooses?) and larceny. No wonder you have no problems with taking others’ money to pay for all your wants.

No one has yet to give a reason why health care is a right, much less a right enforceable by law. It’s only been shown to be a want. But we’ve given plenty of reasons why it isn’t a right.

 

[aspawloski4th]

No one spoiled my, not even my grandparents.

It is their right to charge what they want. And it is other’s rights to find a different doctor who wants to be competitive. And we’ve already had this “profiting off one’s misfortune” argument, and it’s bs. Everyone profits off other’s misfortune. Counselors, auto repair workers, TV repairmen, farmers, meterologists (people got sick of the bad side effects of not knowing the weather). You want everyone in health care to work for free. You want the people who make the MRI machines to work for free. You want everyone making medicine to work for free. I don’t know who is allowed to make a profit in your screwed up view of the world. You want to go back to the barter system? And you can’t talk about morals when you encourage murder (remember, you wanted all the insurance CEOs to be hung until their bodies fell out of the nooses?) and larceny. No wonder you have no problems with taking others’ money to pay for all your wants.

No one has yet to give a reason why health care is a right, much less a right enforceable by law. It’s only been shown to be a want. But we’ve given plenty of reasons why it isn’t a right.

You ecnore most of what i said. since you havent mowed a lawn on a 100 degreeday you dont know what real work is.Those CEo 's that should be hung are guilty of the crime of accesory to murder, so I actuall think hanging is too good for them. Yess I am a capital punishment advocate. The church is officially not against captial punishement All those people you mmentioned would get their weekly paycheck thru a system where the cost is more fairly spread out rather than a system that only allows the rich to get treated. So are you saying healthcare is a privalege? Under your system the rich live, the poor and middle clas die. The abled body live the disabled die. If You had your way I’d be a widower, shame shame.

 

[royal_archer]

I think the logic is this post is contradictory. Every right has a cooresponding duty. If one claims a duty to provide exists then, necessarily, a right to have must exist.

Yes, we all have a right to ordinary health care. In justice, all have a contributory obligation to the common good (health of citizens). Society’s distributive obligation provides, in as much as it exists, health care for its citizens.

Health insurance is merely one of many means to finance health care and often muddles the argument about the end - providing health care.
Peace,
O’Malley

Society can only distribute what it rightfully possesses. My property is not societies property. Society does not have a right to distribute my money.

 

[royal_archer]

There can be a duty without a right. The church doesn’t have a right to our money, but it is our Christian duty to give. Those in need don’t have a right to our time, but we have a Christian duty to volunteer. Our teachers don’t have a right to completed homework assignments, but as students our duty is to finish our homework.

And just because something is a right, doesn’t mean that it should be enforceable by law. Parents have a right to give their children chores. Does that mean we should make it illegal for children to not do their chores?.

please excuse the hair splitting but the church has a right to receive our money which is different fro a right to take our money. With a legal duty there is an implied right to participate as a recipient but that does not alter the voluntary nature of the transaction. What some are trying to do here is translate a right into an excuse to harm others.

 

[royal_archer]

Chopping wood on 95 degree days. My family’s home is on an 1/2 acre of hill and I mowed it on the only 100 dregree day in Grand Rapids in my life time, which could of killed a lot of people. Have you mowed a lawn with a push mower on a 100 dgreeday with 75 degree dewpoint? If the answer is no, you have no credibility on spoiled and not spoiled…

Thats nothing, we would use a reel mower in 10+ weather with 95% humidity. But we didn’t whine about it.

Back to health care Healthcare is supposed to be a way to make a living! Not a fianancial killing, right now its killing those who have the misfortune of not making a financial killing!, While greedy insurance exceutives make money hand over fist. Profiting off of some one;s misfortune is a sin. It’s time to put the Health insurance industry racket to a bloody end. It would be fine with me if all the insurance bigwig accounts were raided and spent on much needed cancer treatments.

The government politicians are the ones who are making a killing exploiting the health care situation. We as Americans have the right to pay for our own medical care or to join with others to share risk. That is the right that is in danger right now.

 

[royal_archer]

Wierd chore no one else I ever knew ever did. Most people have a car when they are 16. I have a balance problem that makes riding a bike for me much harder than most people. Don’t say ride a bike “like the rest of us” Most people dont’ ride bikes, in 10 degree, -20 windchills like what happens here all winter.

Obviously you have had it easier than those I grew up with. But lets say that someone has had a life as rough as what you are portraying yours to be; How does that translate into a right to take from others who rightfully earned their property?

 

[royal_archer]

No one spoiled my, not even my grandparents.

It is their right to charge what they want. And it is other’s rights to find a different doctor who wants to be competitive. And we’ve already had this “profiting off one’s misfortune” argument, and it’s bs. Everyone profits off other’s misfortune. Counselors, auto repair workers, TV repairmen, farmers, meterologists (people got sick of the bad side effects of not knowing the weather). You want everyone in health care to work for free. You want the people who make the MRI machines to work for free. You want everyone making medicine to work for free. I don’t know who is allowed to make a profit in your screwed up view of the world. You want to go back to the barter system? And you can’t talk about morals when you encourage murder (remember, you wanted all the insurance CEOs to be hung until their bodies fell out of the nooses?) and larceny. No wonder you have no problems with taking others’ money to pay for all your wants.

No one has yet to give a reason why health care is a right, much less a right enforceable by law. It’s only been shown to be a want. But we’ve given plenty of reasons why it isn’t a right.

It is interesting how some want others to work for free while they themselves are unwilling to work.

Please keep in mind that there are two deffinitions of “right” that are floating around definition one is something that can not be taken away, and the other is something that must be provided. The issue is with possession. I have every right to hire a doctor or take medicine, etc, etc, etc. (Although sometimes the government does interferewith that right as in the case of prescription medicines) This right only applies to the medicine I own or the products and services I legally procure. However, I do not have the right to medical services that are not in my possession or made available to me by mutual contract.

There are many things we have the right to own but that does not give us the right to attain them through ill means.

 

[o_mlly]

Society can only distribute what it rightfully possesses. My property is not societies property. Society does not have a right to distribute my money.

Yes, you are right – society may not distribute your money. First, society must make your money theirs. Society has a variety of means to separate you from your money: income tax, prorperty tax, sales tax, fines, etc.

Peace,
O’Malley

 

[o_mlly]

There can be a duty without a right. The church doesn’t have a right to our money, but it is our Christian duty to give. Those in need don’t have a right to our time, but we have a Christian duty to volunteer. Our teachers don’t have a right to completed homework assignments, but as students our duty is to finish our homework.

And just because something is a right, doesn’t mean that it should be enforceable by law. Parents have a right to give their children chores. Does that mean we should make it illegal for children to not do their chores?

And asp, you proved my point. The fact that those things mean you’ve had a “hard life” proves someone spoiled you. Those are a part of most people’s lives.

I believe you’re conflating examples of commutative justice with contributive and distributive. Commutative justice recognizes the duties we can freely create amongst ourselves by making agreements or contracts. Such duties are binding; our word is our bond.

Peace,
O’Malley

 

[royal_archer]

Yes, you are right – society may not distribute your money. First, society must make your money theirs. Society has a variety of means to separate you from your money: income tax, prorperty tax, sales tax, fines, etc.

Peace,
O’Malley

Or in otherwords Theft at gun point. There is a reason why tax collectors were acknowledged as sinners in the Bible.

 

[o_mlly]

Or in otherwords Theft at gun point. There is a reason why tax collectors were acknowledged as sinners in the Bible.

I think that would be overstatement for two reasons. 1) In this country, the borders are protected in only one direction. All other things equal, we’re free to leave whenever we choose to do so; our (or, more correctly, “Ceasar’s”) money, however, is not). 2) The plight of the Jewish tax collectors in 1st centrury Judea is an interesting case. However, unlike the IRS, they were the agents of a foreign occupier, not the legitimate agent of a duly constituted government.

Peace,
O’Malley

 

[Bluegoat]

Or in otherwords Theft at gun point. There is a reason why tax collectors were acknowledged as sinners in the Bible.

The tax collectors in the Bible were hated because they paid their own salaries by taking as much as they could from the people, beyond what the state demanded. THis was, in a way, legitimate; it was designed to be how they got their pay; but resulted in rather terrible abuse, and as long as the government, the occupying Romans, got their money, no one cared how the poor were squeezed.

Not really the same thing at all as legitimate taxation, especially in a democratic form of government.

As for health care in the US - the form it is in now makes it, in dollars per service terms, among the world’s most expensive, and without being the world’s most effective. And many (most) don’t have a real choice in negotiating with insurance companies, they get what their employer provides, which is as little as they can get away with. Many others have no real access at all.

There are many other ways of setting up a health care system that is more effective and cheaper than the American one. Lots of places have them.

 

[mary_bobo]

Health care is a right, health insurance is not.

Please read the Federalist Papers. No where therein or in the Constitution does it mention or refer to health care being a right.

 

[mary_bobo]

The tax collectors in the Bible were hated because they paid their own salaries by taking as much as they could from the people, beyond what the state demanded. THis was, in a way, legitimate; it was designed to be how they got their pay; but resulted in rather terrible abuse, and as long as the government, the occupying Romans, got their money, no one cared how the poor were squeezed.

Not really the same thing at all as legitimate taxation, especially in a democratic form of government.

As for health care in the US - the form it is in now makes it, in dollars per service terms, among the world’s most expensive, and without being the world’s most effective. And many (most) don’t have a real choice in negotiating with insurance companies, they get what their employer provides, which is as little as they can get away with. Many others have no real access at all.

There are many other ways of setting up a health care system that is more effective and cheaper than the American one. Lots of places have them.

You are correct. There are many ways of setting up a health care system. What is trying to be instituted here is breaking down the good parts of the system to be sure everyone has the same minimal care. We can certainly find a way to help those who truly need help without dismantleing the whole system. And it will not be more effective. Cheaper does not mean better.