Healthy ,willing and able

[Rau]

I wonder why so many women practice NFP stricter or switch to ABC if it’s to truly be believed to be so rare that it’s nearly unheard of for older women to conceive and carry babies.

It’s not “nearly unheard of” - it’s just far less prevalent for several reasons. And women over 45 (and their husbands) are often quite disinclined to become parents to an infant again at that age and thus may take steps to reduce the likelihood of it.

 

[ThePCWife]

One wonders what is really being debated now. The reduced capacity of the “average” couple of more advanced age, eg. 45+, to conceive and to carry a child to term is not doubted by anyone. And that the size of the cohort of couples seeking to conceive at 45+ years is much smaller than the cohort at less than 45 years, is also clear. And perhaps the frequency of sexual relations is also less in the over 45s. So there are a number of factors influencing actual birth rates prior to menopause.

It is being debated. People are acting like simple desire to have a baby at that age will ensure it occurs and using their personal examples to bolster that line of argumentation.

 

[Rau]

It is being debated. People are acting like simple desire to have a baby at that age will ensure it occurs and using their personal examples to bolster that line of argumentation.

Which post said that desire will produce the desired result?

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

I think this subject is between you, your husband and God. It really isn’t anyone else’s business.

 

[MomaMary8]

Say if I was a healthy mom,already had children, was in my late 40’s and husband and I very happy to have a try for a new baby (all systems go) Why would there be opposition from other Catholics for us prepared to accept and love the child God gives to us as a gift
if that baby is exactly as God intended,perfect in His eyes but perhaps “imperfect” in others?Who am I to say to God,yes I’ll accept the one that every one thinks is “normal”
but no, I wont accept the one that everyone else thinks is not.
Why are my husband and I not allowed to be brave even in the eyes of some Catholics when the world needs say children with Down’s Syndrome -some of the most beautiful souls I have met in this upside down world?
I just don’t get it that I’ve been told perhaps we shouldn’t try because of the risk.
I believe that’s between me, my husband and God,
Thoughts please
* I request that this isn’t turned into a for and against NFP
thread. *

I pray all goes well for you! You are right that people should not discourage you from being open to more children. Having a baby, especially over that age of 40, is wonderful. It is a blessing that is worth the extra aches it might take. Since turning 40 I have had 2 live births, 2 miscarriages, 1 still born. (One previous misscarriage at age 35, 8 live births under the age of 40.) Even with the heartache I have endured my husband and I remain open to God’s will in our fertility. We are not active in TTC, but rather open to what may happen

 

[bitterhope]

Which post said that desire will produce the desired result?

Desire doesn’t necessarily produce results at any age for any couple. Same goes for having a desire to avoid conception doesn’t necessarily prevent babies. Both are more out of our hands than we care to acknowledge. My question remains though. If conception is so highly unlikely that it’s been compared to winning the lottery on this thread, why do so many go through such lengths to avoid? It’s a serious question on my part. So many posters here on CAF have mentioned that women who open to whatever happens inevitably change their minds during their 40’s through menopause. Even people that have been avoiding children for years become stricter during that timeframe I’ve been told. If conception is so unlikely I would think it would be a time of loosening up on things and relaxing a bit. I truly am trying to make sense of things and I just can’t find the logic. My parents had children into their 50’s and never attempted to avoid at any time in their marriage. The children did space out farther and came at a much slower pace naturally so I do believe fertility does decrease as we age. It seems very silly to me to try even harder to avoid when nature is already working that way. At a younger age the strictness is understandable to me if a couple finds reasons because babies tend to come easier. that’s what confuses me about things like this.

 

[Rau]

Desire doesn’t necessarily produce results at any age for any couple. Same goes for having a desire to avoid conception doesn’t necessarily prevent babies. Both are more out of our hands than we care to acknowledge. My question remains though. If conception is so highly unlikely that it’s been compared to winning the lottery on this thread, why do so many go through such lengths to avoid? It’s a serious question on my part. So many posters here on CAF have mentioned that women who open to whatever happens inevitably change their minds during their 40’s through menopause. Even people that have been avoiding children for years become stricter during that timeframe I’ve been told. If conception is so unlikely I would think it would be a time of loosening up on things and relaxing a bit. I truly am trying to make sense of things and I just can’t find the logic. My parents had children into their 50’s and never attempted to avoid at any time in their marriage. The children did space out farther and came at a much slower pace naturally so I do believe fertility does decrease as we age. It seems very silly to me to try even harder to avoid when nature is already working that way. At a younger age the strictness is understandable to me if a couple finds reasons because babies tend to come easier. that’s what confuses me about things like this.

I think I answered that in an earlier post, saying of births after 45+:

It’s not “nearly unheard of” - it’s just far less prevalent for several reasons. And women over 45 (and their husbands) are often quite disinclined to become parents to an infant again at that age and thus may take steps to reduce the likelihood of it.

It is not silly to “try harder” to avoid at a later age if one’s disinclination to parent a baby is all the greater. Perhaps what you are not understanding is that many people are not attracted to the idea of larger numbers of children, or having babies later in life.

 

[UbiCaritas]

Desire doesn’t necessarily produce results at any age for any couple. Same goes for having a desire to avoid conception doesn’t necessarily prevent babies. Both are more out of our hands than we care to acknowledge. My question remains though. If conception is so highly unlikely that it’s been compared to winning the lottery on this thread, why do so many go through such lengths to avoid? It’s a serious question on my part. So many posters here on CAF have mentioned that women who open to whatever happens inevitably change their minds during their 40’s through menopause. Even people that have been avoiding children for years become stricter during that timeframe I’ve been told. If conception is so unlikely I would think it would be a time of loosening up on things and relaxing a bit. I truly am trying to make sense of things and I just can’t find the logic. My parents had children into their 50’s and never attempted to avoid at any time in their marriage. The children did space out farther and came at a much slower pace naturally so I do believe fertility does decrease as we age. It seems very silly to me to try even harder to avoid when nature is already working that way. At a younger age the strictness is understandable to me if a couple finds reasons because babies tend to come easier. that’s what confuses me about things like this.

I can’t answer for all women; I might even not be able to answer for myself, as I’m in my late 20s now, and am only hypothesizing as to how I might be thinking in 15+ years.

While fertility certainly decreases in one’s 40s, statistically, chances of both miscarriage and birth defects increase. If I, historically, don’t handle miscarriage well on a mental/emotional level, I could morally make the decision that I am not willing to increase my risk of miscarriage, given what it does to me and my family. I could also morally decide that I have a different perspective than I did in my 20s, have more local family support, what-have-you, and so am willing to accept the increased risk of losing a baby and the associated grieving process.

Similarly, the various difficulties that parents of special needs kids (and, later, adults) face are not insignificant, though of course, like how one handles miscarrying, that’s also going to vary from couple to couple and circumstance to circumstance.

It’s unfortunate but true that with an increase in parental age comes an uptick in the likelihood of certain types of disabilities in children conceived during that timeframe, while also placing the associated realistic burdens, both resource-based and physical, on an older and physically-frailer parent: a parent who, at 45, has a child who requires certain types of care, is going to be lifting a 100+ pound adult as a 65-year-old, or perhaps dealing with early-onset Alzheimer’s in a child with Down Syndrome while dealing with their own aging issues.

This does not mean that a couple must morally refrain from conception during this time, far from it! Again, that’s a decision that they and only they can make, but I’m sure that the above points are taken into consideration for a lot of couples in deciding whether or not they should try to conceive, try to avoid, or just accept what (and who ) may come. Lastly, as ever, God has the final say: one can always conceive a baby with Down Syndrome in one’s twenties, and no NFP method, total abstinence aside, has a 100% effectiveness rate. However, as humans without the gift of knowing the future, all we can do is educate ourselves as best we reasonably can about a decision, and ask God to help us make the right one given both the information at hand and our particular circumstances.

 

[UbiCaritas]

One other thing which came to mind this morning about why women in their 40s, despite a lower likelihood of conception, may continue to practice NFP. Far more women have C-sections now than even, say, 40 years ago. While the reasons for this are varied and this is something of a hot-button topic, it does often limit the number of children you can have, with some very nasty potential consequences if you don’t avoid: the risks of placenta accreta, where the placenta grows through the previous uterine incision and sometimes into the abdomen, attaching to organs and tissue there, rises sharply after a certain number of C-sections. The maternal mortality rates with placenta accreta are quite significant, as it often leads to severe hemorrhage when a doctor tries to remove the placenta from the uterus and surrounding organs.

As ever, how women’s bodies handle multiple C-sections varies wildly from woman to woman (my OB says he’s seen women who shouldn’t get pregnant again after two, and others who had their sixth with him and could have had more), but it’s a reasonable concern. Given that most married Catholic women will have had multiple children by the time they reach their 40s, those who have had C-sections are looking at a significantly increased risk at that point, and “well, you have a lower chance of conceiving anyway” isn’t enough to rely on.

 

[MomaMary8]

Desire doesn’t necessarily produce results at any age for any couple. Same goes for having a desire to avoid conception doesn’t necessarily prevent babies. Both are more out of our hands than we care to acknowledge. My question remains though. If conception is so highly unlikely that it’s been compared to winning the lottery on this thread, why do so many go through such lengths to avoid? It’s a serious question on my part. So many posters here on CAF have mentioned that women who open to whatever happens inevitably change their minds during their 40’s through menopause. Even people that have been avoiding children for years become stricter during that timeframe I’ve been told. If conception is so unlikely I would think it would be a time of loosening up on things and relaxing a bit. I truly am trying to make sense of things and I just can’t find the logic. My parents had children into their 50’s and never attempted to avoid at any time in their marriage. The children did space out farther and came at a much slower pace naturally so I do believe fertility does decrease as we age. It seems very silly to me to try even harder to avoid when nature is already working that way. At a younger age the strictness is understandable to me if a couple finds reasons because babies tend to come easier. that’s what confuses me about things like this.

I agree that it is a bit confusing. I recall having a very similar discussion with my OB. We were talking about how infrequently I was seeing her (more space between babies!) and that it was almost time for me to consider a hysterectomy due to my high risk for cancer. During the conversation she chuckled a bit about those who had a great deal of anxiety over reading their fertility signs as they neared menopause. She said it was unlikely that they would get pregnant so their stress was higher than it should be. But I think Rau has a point. We (you, me and my OB) do not think in the same terms as others who do not wish to add to their family. We would welcome them in a heartbeat with little anxiety. Others might have a panic attack before they can get to they joyful welcoming of a baby! (But I’m sure they’d come around in time! )

 

[Mamanurse]

I haven’t read the threads, but just to throw this out there…I was only 23 yrs old when I had my first born son with Down syndrome. I know the risk is higher as you age, but don’t let fear control you. My mom also had two children when she was 42 and 44…both were healthy “normal” kids. Who cares what other people think if you and your husband have discerned what God is calling to you to?

 

[Mamanurse]

I can’t answer for all women; I might even not be able to answer for myself, as I’m in my late 20s now, and am only hypothesizing as to how I might be thinking in 15+ years.

While fertility certainly decreases in one’s 40s, statistically, chances of both miscarriage and birth defects increase. If I, historically, don’t handle miscarriage well on a mental/emotional level, I could morally make the decision that I am not willing to increase my risk of miscarriage, given what it does to me and my family. I could also morally decide that I have a different perspective than I did in my 20s, have more local family support, what-have-you, and so am willing to accept the increased risk of losing a baby and the associated grieving process.

Similarly, the various difficulties that parents of special needs kids (and, later, adults) face are not insignificant, though of course, like how one handles miscarrying, that’s also going to vary from couple to couple and circumstance to circumstance.

It’s unfortunate but true that with an increase in parental age comes an uptick in the likelihood of certain types of disabilities in children conceived during that timeframe, while also placing the associated realistic burdens, both resource-based and physical, on an older and physically-frailer parent: a parent who, at 45, has a child who requires certain types of care, is going to be lifting a 100+ pound adult as a 65-year-old, or perhaps dealing with early-onset Alzheimer’s in a child with Down Syndrome while dealing with their own aging issues.

This does not mean that a couple must morally refrain from conception during this time, far from it! Again, that’s a decision that they and only they can make, but I’m sure that the above points are taken into consideration for a lot of couples in deciding whether or not they should try to conceive, try to avoid, or just accept what (and who ) may come. Lastly, as ever, God has the final say: one can always conceive a baby with Down Syndrome in one’s twenties, and no NFP method, total abstinence aside, has a 100% effectiveness rate. However, as humans without the gift of knowing the future, all we can do is educate ourselves as best we reasonably can about a decision, and ask God to help us make the right one given both the information at hand and our particular circumstances.

As a mother with a child with Down syndrome (who I had in my early twenties btw), I find your comment about lifting a 100 lb child bizarre. Yes, there are certain individuals with DS who may never learn to walk. I’ve never met one myself and I’m pretty immersed in the DS community. My own son didn’t learn to walk until he was five and again, I’ve yet to meet another child with DS that took that long. Why do believe that someone would be lifting a 20 yr old with DS?

 

[pensmama87]

As a mother with a child with Down syndrome (who I had in my early twenties btw), I find your comment about lifting a 100 lb child bizarre. Yes, there are certain individuals with DS who may never learn to walk. I’ve never met one myself and I’m pretty immersed in the DS community. My own son didn’t learn to walk until he was five and again, I’ve yet to meet another child with DS that took that long. Why do believe that someone would be lifting a 20 yr old with DS?

I think she was listing several possibilities, not just one (note the use of the word “or”).

 

[UbiCaritas]

I think she was listing several possibilities, not just one (note the use of the word “or”).

^ What she said.

 

[SusanneT]

I pray all goes well for you! You are right that people should not discourage you from being open to more children. Having a baby, especially over that age of 40, is wonderful. It is a blessing that is worth the extra aches it might take. Since turning 40 I have had 2 live births, 2 miscarriages, 1 still born. (One previous misscarriage at age 35, 8 live births under the age of 40.) Even with the heartache I have endured my husband and I remain open to God’s will in our fertility. We are not active in TTC, but rather open to what may happen

 

[Mamanurse]

I think she was listing several possibilities, not just one (note the use of the word “or”).

She gave 2 possibilities with regards to the difficulties of having a child with Down syndrome. One of which doesn’t really make much sense. Just pointing out that half of the possibilities she mentioned are extreme cases and not very common.

 

[bitterhope]

She gave 2 possibilities with regards to the difficulties of having a child with Down syndrome. One of which doesn’t really make much sense. Just pointing out that half of the possibilities she mentioned are extreme cases and not very common.

This seems to happen a lot. People get into worse case scenario thinking and become fearful. It robs us of hope. It steals our joy. God never intended for us to live this way. God is the giver of hope. He is the author of joy. He will sustain us in all our needs if we allow Him. He will comfort us in our pain if we are open to it. And God does grant us all our hearts desires in the way that He sees fit, which is always in the way that benefits our souls and our families’ souls the most.

Children with disabilities are not burdens. They are perfectly formed in the image of God and are blessings of a very special sort. Some of my kids have hereditary heart defects. Some are very mild and one is quite severe. Some of my kids have learning and/or developmental disabilities. One shares my hearing problems. My youngest has a birth defect that affects her spinal cord. People tell me all the time these are signs I shouldn’t keep having kids. Funny thing is, none of the medical professionals have told me that. Its always people (usually unrelated females that “care”) who have a bad case of worst case scenario thinking. It’s always people that view my kids as their disabilities and troubles instead of as individual gifts worthy of being allowed to live the life God gave them.

If people decide for themselves that it is best for them to avoid children, that is fine. The problem is when these people decide it is their place to try to place fear in the hearts of others by grouping everyone into statistics and worse case scenario groupings that may or may not actually be accurate for them. Anyone alive today is surrounded with these fearful “facts” as they are repeated all over the media and by the general public. Thing is, they aren’t as set in stone as they are made out to be. Much of it is personal and based on individual circumstances, individual health status, and individual hereditary/genetic make up. As Catholics we should support and champion the choice for life, especially in circumstances where the world is most vocally opposed to it. Especially in situations where we ourselves may very well determine we personally would not be seeking to conceive ourselves.

Not every couple has to have children into their 40’s or beyond in order to support and rally behind a couple who is actively seeking to add to their family. It’s not our place to put fear or barricades in their hearts and minds. I personally know how hurtful this is. It’s not fun when you walk into a grocery store or doctor office or even after Mass and other moms tell you that you should have known better than to get pregnant again in “these circumstances.” When kids with disabilities are used as scare tactics we are doing no better as Catholics in being pro life than the secular world is.

 

[bitterhope]

Last post I promise.

People forget in these discussions all the resources, both in the family and in American society, available to help out in situations where parents are unable (or even just unwilling) to provide the care needed to children with disabilities. None of us are stuck lifting 100+ pounds at age 65 on our own unless we choose to do so. Families tend to help each other. Services of professionals tend to become available. Many agencies exist for a reason. These types of discussions always revolve around highly unlikely occurances being made worse by other highly unlikely occurances that compound each other. It really is not right to do this to parents, children, or the agencies available to help.

 

[Rau]

…When kids with disabilities are used as scare tactics we are doing no better as Catholics in being pro life than the secular world is.

There’s no reason to presume that a calm, sober and medically accurate assessment (assuming that is what is on the table) of the increasing probability of a disability with maternal age, is a “scare tactic”. While some may intend it as that, the reality is that it is simply another factor which a couple is entitled to consider in making decisions about seeking or avoiding pregnancy.

 

[bitterhope]

There’s no reason to presume that a calm, sober and medically accurate assessment (assuming that is what is on the table) of the increasing probability of a disability with maternal age, is a “scare tactic”. While some may intend it as that, the reality is that it is simply another factor which a couple is entitled to consider in making decisions about seeking or avoiding pregnancy.

The couple THEMSELVES. It is not right for others to point it out TO THEM. It’s not anyone’s place here or in the world to do so yet that is exactly what is done. Leave it to their medical team. Funny enough, usually the doctors are much more level headed about things than people on these boards or people at the grocery store.