Hear Ye, Hear Ye: Royal Heirs May Wed Catholics

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Bohemia (current Czech Republic): Seized by von Luxemburg emperors of the HRE from heirs of the Premyslid family (not getting into their history). Followed by some warlord elected to be king. Followed by an import from Poland, same one as in Hungary. Replaced by Habsburgs in 1526 as per treaty. An attempt to elect a different monarch (the “Winter King”, Frederick, Elector Palatine) in 1618, much by way of a national uprising for independence.

Slovakia: Never really had an own dynasty, being subject of wars between Bohemia, Hungary and occasionally some other powers (e.g. Poland).

Poland: All sorts of bypassing the eldest sons and/or testamental heirs of the monarch throughout the whole life of the Piast dynasty. Eventually a junior dynast united the line, his son being childless and the throne by his Anjou relations due to a treaty despite his attempts to renege on that treaty and put on the throne some more local relative he had adopted, and despite plenty of male dynasts. This was followed by a iure uxoris king whose offspring with another woman replaced the previous dynasty by the will of the nobility. Followed by elective monarchs ever after (while the original dynasty lived until 1685 in male line, and females and their offspring were very much non-excluded by Poland’s customs…), some of whom were cast out and then returned and cast out the other guys. Crown usurped by Tzars of Russia in 1815 by agreement of the powers at Vienna, after a short-lived stunt with a Duchy of Warsaw ruled by Saxon Wettins, the constitutional heirs from before the fall of Poland (four years before the fall, heritable monarchy was put in place to begin from the death of the last elected king, whose election was very suspicious, between bribery and force, and he was a former lover of the Russian Tzaritsa). In WW1, Germans and Austrians seized the “kingdom”, which remained without a king, to be nominated at some later date by the two powers.

Silesia: Possibly taken from Bohemia by Poland in 10th century, otherwise conquered from a local dynasty (which probably had offspring, reduced to local lords living until today). Near-permanent subject of a war between Poland and Bohemia, along with HRE emperors forcing themselves with overlordship. Turbulent succession of countless local dukes, often by treaty. Different overlords for different dukes (could be the king of Poland, or that of Bohemia, or the HRE emperor). Seizures by the overlords. Installation of non-dynasts. Prussia took over in 19th century without a claim. Afterwards, from 1918, both Germany and Poland were republics, so not relevant here.

Lithuania: Lots of infighting and shifting successions, as well as appointments of ruling grand dukes by “paramount dukes” being kings of Poland from the Lithuanian dynasty. Initially had some independent elections, then shared the fate of Poland. Grand dukes were kings of Poland, elected without blood ties to anybody previously ruling being the decisive criterion. Crown made elective basically by decision of the grand dukes along with parliaments, choosing it to be so for the future.

Russia: War, war, war, followed by elections from 1598 onward, which eventually nominated non-Rurikid Romanov Tzars in 1613 (not like the Rurikid princes wanted the position so much). The Rurikids were still extant in junior lines. In fact, they still very well are, and plenty of them.

Ukraine, Belarus: Various local Rurikid dukes replaced at will by overlords, by rival claimants and rebellions, by conquest by external powers, finally claimed by Muscovy (later Russia), Poland and Lithuania, even by Habsburgs to an extent.

Spain: Kingship assumed on the basis of treaties and wars, followed by Habsburg inheritance (would have to check if it were possible to find a dent there…), followed by War of the Spanish Succession between Habsburgs from Austria and supporters of the Bourbons appointed by a treaty between France and Spain, by agreement of the last Spanish Habsburg. Followed by Carlist wars ever after. Carlist claimants are still out there, although the current king has inherited some of the claims from that line.

Portugal: Some trouble with succession by a junior branch, followed by Spanish conquest, followed by another junior branch succeeding, later having some dynastic troubles in 19th century.
 
Italy: Constantine’s donation of land and power to the popes was a forgery. The very legitimacy of establishment of the papal estates as a lay sovereign can be disputed and it was probably illegal. Rome switched allegiance from Byzantium to Charlemagne and HRE. South and east stayed with Byzantium. Venice became basically independent. Longobards poured over and were cast out by Charlemagne, who took over their kingship for himself. Local nobles feuded all the time, affecting succession by the wars, also with participation by external powers, such as the HRE, whom one could consider a non-external power depending on the theory one chose. Frequent interventions and take overs by French, Spanish and German dynasties, and even some conquests by Papal Estates. By 1871, the Savoyards established themselves by conquest of other states, the dynasties of which were cast out.

Netherlands: Long contention between the HRE and France for overlordship (to the point of dual overlordship at times), troubled succession in Flanders (ultimately to Habsburgs) and Burgundy (annexed by France, claimed by the Habsburgs in female line through marriage with the daughter of the last duke). As a matter of simplification, the nowadays Belgium was a Habsburg holding, Holland a republic. Seized by Napoleon and turned into a monarchy for his brother, not before another republic. Current dynasties appointed by the Congress of Vienna, i.e. by an agreement of external powers.

Sweden: Current line (Bernadotte) is descended from a French general adopted by a Swedish king, no dynastic ties (and it’s inevitable that plenty of people from other countries or local aristocracy must have been related in female line). Previously the Vasa dynasty had skipped heirs from 16th century.

Scandinavia in general: There were so many conquests of one country by another that it’s mind-numbing. Then there are the usual dynastic problems of in-fighting and skipping certain heirs.

Rome and Byzantium: usurpation and military take-over was the norm rather than normal inheritance (actually, that would be in accordance with the “law” as it were, dynastic succession being somewhat alien, although elements of it went back to unified Rome and elements of bequeathing went back to Julius Caesar).

Greece: After the fall of Byzantium was Turkish rule, as illegitimate as one could be. That was followed by a republic replaced by a king from Bavaria (Otto Wittelsbach), deposed later. Danish royal house was installed there. According to one of the kings of that line, “the most important tool of a king of Greece [was] a suitcase”. Kings were deposed and replaced by other dynasts, not necessarily next in the line. Then they came back for a second reign.

Danube countries: Basically war, followed by imposition of princes by Hungary, Poland, Turkey or some other power. Finally German dynasties (Hohenzollern in Romania, Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha, same large house as Prince Albert, husband of Queen Victoria, in
Bulgaria etc.) were installed there by the big powers of Europe.

You won’t find a single country in Europe with unbroken, “rightful”, unimpeachable succession throughout the whole existence of that country. 😉 Perhaps a span of 200 years, maybe more in some very unique cases (e.g. the Austrian Habsburgs avoided infighting, the Stuarts from the first king until 1688, possibly France from Valois succession in 14th century to the death of Louis XVI in 1593, if we agree that Henry IV, the first Bourbon on the throne, was a very obvious heir despite a dynasty change). But sooner or later, and typically sooner, you will find somebody who took over in a rebellion, was appointed by nobles or parliament or an overlord or the previous ruler bypassing some other heir, or even by the Pope (who e.g. appointed English kings lords of Ireland, and had a basis to claim to be England’s liege lord due to homage by John Lackland, which was not unique among European kings, many of whom were papal vassals and their kingdoms papal fiefs, at least in name).

Currently reigning monarchs are basically considered rightful by their subjects due to loyalty and sympathy and perhaps virtues of character but good luck defending their dynastic claims or other bases for claiming the thrones. 😉
 
I do not disagree with you that there are different methods of succession. There are many and not just in theory but in practice too. As regards naming a successor, this is a common practice in Arabian monarchies. I stated that we should not generalise about other monarchies is because this thread is about the British one not others.
The point of contention as I understood and the reason for my last post was that you called me on a sweeping generalisation. Therefore I set out to show that “rightful” succession was ephemerical throughout all of Europe without exception. 😉

But the other European examples also show a very general point, applicable especially to England, that at some point people generally accept the current monarch as rightful regardless of the legality of his succession or accession to the throne. We also need to deal with the fact that e.g. somebody several hundred years ago did in fact succeed without exactly being the “rightful” king at the time, and the current ruler derives his or her rights from that person. E.g. nobody would support a coup against Elisabeth II right now (or any other monarch in any other country) in favour of a claimant. In fact, the Duke of Bavaria, who has a better claim, keeps silent, as has everybody in his line before him.
It is not as straightforward as you make it seem. As a consequence I don’t know if you know what actually happens. The UK is a constitutional monarchy and The Queen does nothing except on ministerial advice. Therefore, The Queen never dissolves or summons a parliament except on the advice of the Prime Minister.
There isn’t much difference between now and before in this regard. The parliament needed and still needs to be convened by the monarch, being as legitimate as the monarch is. The source of advice the monarch receives is not relevant here (you could say the monarch can’t convene or dissolve without the PM’s approval but the PM can’t do it without the monarch’s participation, nor can assent be skipped). For example, in 1689, William and Mary had no right, through ordinary means, to convene the parliament and grant royal assent because they were not the rightful sovereigns. In order to accept their legitimacy, one needs to accept extraordinary means, not provided for by normal laws.
This royal assent is never withheld. To do so would cause a major constitutional crisis. The royal assent is also simply announced in both Houses of Parliament. The Queen never gives it personally. Queen Anne was the last monarch to attempt to withhold assent and Queen Victoria the last to personally give the royal assent.
Yes, but that’s completely not relevant here because what matters is whose name is on the assent, even formally, not to mention that back in 1688 the monarch did very much personally give assent, much more so in 1603, and much more so in 15th or 16th century. Should any of the English kings have been other than the lawful successor, he basically wouldn’t have been able to convene parliament validly, let alone grant assent.

Please note I’m writing all this from a historical point of view and much in the tone dictated by a discussion of the Act of Settlement and things that happened around the time it was enacted. I’m not applying this to modern politics. 😉
 
The point of contention as I understood and the reason for my last post was that you called me on a sweeping generalisation. Therefore I set out to show that “rightful” succession was ephemerical throughout all of Europe without exception. 😉

But the other European examples also show a very general point, applicable especially to England, that at some point people generally accept the current monarch as rightful regardless of the legality of his succession or accession to the throne. We also need to deal with the fact that e.g. somebody several hundred years ago did in fact succeed without exactly being the “rightful” king at the time, and the current ruler derives his or her rights from that person. E.g. nobody would support a coup against Elisabeth II right now (or any other monarch in any other country) in favour of a claimant. In fact, the Duke of Bavaria, who has a better claim, keeps silent, as has everybody in his line before him.
While it provides for a very interesting discussion: the way monarchs have acquired the throne and their legal claim; it would be altogether another matter to prove in the relevant tribunal that Elizabeth II was not the legitimate monarch.
 
While it provides for a very interesting discussion: the way monarchs have acquired the throne and their legal claim; it would be altogether another matter to prove in the relevant tribunal that Elizabeth II was not the legitimate monarch.
Firstly, I doubt anybody would want to pursue that kind of claim seriously. I suppose the mentality of an aristocratic Briton would be to keep silent rather, even if he discovered that he had a better claim, similarly how illegitimate descendants of previous dynasties remain loyal. 😉 Also, I doubt the case would be given a normal, serious hearing. The court would probably say it isn’t competent to judge history, or that it would be impossible to provide an accurate judgment of th ematter. And no court in England would question the legality of the Act of Settlement or of the “Protestant Succession” because both of the two are foundations of the political organisation of the UK. And I suppose almost every Catholic Briton is very happy with Elisabeth II and her rights to the throne by now, and has been with the last couple of monarchs back to Victoria. 😉 So no chance of that happening. But we can still have a discussion, pretty much on the same principle as there has recently been a discussion of whether the Declaration of Independence was illegal (and no, there would never be a court case to settle that, nor would the Declaration be annulled ;)).
 
Firstly, I doubt anybody would want to pursue that kind of claim seriously. I suppose the mentality of an aristocratic Briton would be to keep silent rather, even if he discovered that he had a better claim, similarly how illegitimate descendants of previous dynasties remain loyal. 😉 Also, I doubt the case would be given a normal, serious hearing. The court would probably say it isn’t competent to judge history, or that it would be impossible to provide an accurate judgment of th ematter. And no court in England would question the legality of the Act of Settlement or of the “Protestant Succession” because both of the two are foundations of the political organisation of the UK. And I suppose almost every Catholic Briton is very happy with Elisabeth II and her rights to the throne by now, and has been with the last couple of monarchs back to Victoria. 😉 So no chance of that happening. But we can still have a discussion, pretty much on the same principle as there has recently been a discussion of whether the Declaration of Independence was illegal (and no, there would never be a court case to settle that, nor would the Declaration be annulled ;)).
A point of interest in case you do not know: an English court cannot challenge Acts of Parliamen (statute laws). We have no equivalent to the situation in other countries where a court may challenge the constitutionality of a law, as may happen in Ireland or US.
 
A point of interest in case you do not know: an English court cannot challenge Acts of Parliamen (statute laws). We have no equivalent to the situation in other countries where a court may challenge the constitutionality of a law, as may happen in Ireland or US.
True but there’s no competent tribunal to judge succession matters in the first place. 😉

Also, in the case of the Act of Settlement, one could be questioning the existence, not the constitutionality of it but I doubt that would fly either.
 
True but there’s no competent tribunal to judge succession matters in the first place. 😉

Also, in the case of the Act of Settlement, one could be questioning the existence, not the constitutionality of it but I doubt that would fly either.
Interesting POV I’ll give that one some thought.
 
Hello, everyone! 🙂

Thank you, Matthew Holford, for correcting my statement up there about Catholics being able to marry “monarchs”. So, they can only marry heirs? What happens if the heirs ascend to the throne?

I wanted put out an invitation for you all to join The Campionites chat group for those interested in British history on CAF. We look forward to seeing any and all of you there!

I’ve noticed there’s been a very long and intense conversation about rightful succession dating back to the Glorious Revolution and beyond. You all are very well informed! In truth, however, I would venture to comment that I think it matters very little at this point who has the proper blood lines since the monarchy is mainly a symbol of continuity and tradition. Parliament, on the other hand, has the main political power. Even if the monarchy were abolished, Parliament would just plod on without it.

Over the past thousand years, there have been so many rebellions/civil wars/overthrows I think the truth of the “real” royal line is lost in the mists of time. Besides, as a fan of George III, I must bring forward the fact that the Hanoverian line was validated by the pope in 1766. Therefore, from that point on, they were indeed the “rightful” soveriegns, even by Catholic standards. Even before that time, however, I think the Hanoverians were technically “rightful” monarchs by the mere fact that they served that post for so long.

Some people in this thread (many from my native land, in fact) have spoken disparagingly about the monarchy. They claim that “tradition” is merely a collection of purposless habits people sink into and find it difficult to stop. They also bring up the point that the royals have had their fair share of scandals. Okay, time out. Self-righteous statements about the glory of republics and the rediculousness of monarchies are both disrespectful and uninformed. Tradition is the bulwark of all civilized societies and history is a powerful force in daily life. It’s like a chain; when you touch one end, the other trembles.

Secondly, just as the scandals within the Catholic Church do not take away from the truth of our doctrine, so the scandals of the royals does take away the richness and beauty of the instition of the monarchy. I know Catholic Traditon begins with a captial “T” and human tradition begins with a lower case “t”, but human beings are made for both (the former takes priority, of course, but the latter adds spice to life).

The same principle, I would venture to say, applies to the union of the U.K. People have advocated that the four nations currently comprised within it break apart and form “glorious” republics. I say, yuck! The nationalist republicanists have turned out a nauseating amount of films, books, and beyond that knock the union which successfully battled two of the worst tyrants in history (Napolean and Hitler) and aided many other countries in their struggles for freedom. Of course, the union had it’s “pride and prejucide” problems against each other and other, especially during the jingoistic colonial period, but again, that doesn’t mean the institution itself is all dried up!

In short, if I were British (and I may well be someday), I would fly my Union Jack high and sing a rousing verse of “God Save the Queen”! Then I’d make the Sign of the Cross, and pray hard for the conversion and preservation of the land.

God Bless,
Pearl of Tyburn
 
I’ll wiait. Predictions take time to see if they come true or not.
 
Also, lets not forget Prince Phillip, the Duke of Edinburgh’s mother died a roman catholic nun… food for thought. (that’s why he was chosen to represent the royal family at Pope John Paul 2’s funeral mass.)
 
Also, lets not forget Prince Phillip, the Duke of Edinburgh’s mother died a roman catholic nun… food for thought. (that’s why he was chosen to represent the royal family at Pope John Paul 2’s funeral mass.)
I thought she was Greek Orthodox?
 
Also, lets not forget Prince Phillip, the Duke of Edinburgh’s mother died a roman catholic nun… food for thought. (that’s why he was chosen to represent the royal family at Pope John Paul 2’s funeral mass.)
At Blessed John Paul II’s Funeral Mass HM The Queen was represented by HRH The Prince of Wales not HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh.
 
I remember my old pastor saying that he thought Europe would go Moslem.
In the long term, it would actually be more amazing if this DIDN’T happen. It’s still not likely to take place within the next generation though I don’t think.
 
In the long term, it would actually be more amazing if this DIDN’T happen.
Can you please explain the basis for this statement. As a European living in Europe I can assure you that statement is a long way from being correct.
 
A 300-year-old ban on heirs to the throne marrying Roman Catholics will be overturned and discrimination against royal daughters removed under reforms proposed on Wednesday by Prime Minister David Cameron.

More…
Yes, now, instead of discriminating on the basis of sex, they will discriminate on the basis of age. Why is that seen as a huge improvement? Why not return to the ancient Celtic practice (as was once done in Scotland) of the monarch nominating his/her heir from within the royal family. The monarch could nominate his oldest son or his youngest daughter, whichever one he (or she) thought was the most qualified.

The Royal Family are descended from the ancient line of Scottish kings so the could adopt this ancient practice.
 
Praise be to God! Maybe this will eventually result in an end to the queen or king being head of the Church of England and that way they will be able to choose to be Catholic if they want to be. Maybe it will also lead to a decrease in anti-Catholic sentiment in the UK.
 
Yes, now, instead of discriminating on the basis of sex, they will discriminate on the basis of age. Why is that seen as a huge improvement? Why not return to the ancient Celtic practice (as was once done in Scotland) of the monarch nominating his/her heir from within the royal family. The monarch could nominate his oldest son or his youngest daughter, whichever one he (or she) thought was the most qualified.
I disagree that the first born, irrespective of sex, being the one to inherit the throne is discrimination. It is a much fairer system, I believe, than the monarch nominating her or his successor; it is not without it problems. It does happen in some countries and has been known to lead to murder, even in the present age.
The Royal Family are descended from the ancient line of Scottish kings so the could adopt this ancient practice.
I think the modern Royal Family has much more German ancestry than Scottish.
 
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