The CCC does not say hell is a psychological state of mind. Furthermore, it does not say the “eternal fire” is to be taken figuratively.
If I was created to desire the good, then how is it possible that I desire anything other than the good?
Neither did I. Hell is neither a state of mind nor figurative. However it is a state of being separated from the knowledge of the essence of God that is eternal and described in the Bible using various images as Pope John Paul II, who commissioned the very catechism you are quoting from, stated in public.
Now lets have a look at the catechism which explicitly agrees with Pius X that hell is a state:
You are far to obsessed with Jesus’ imagery of “fire”, that you ignore what the catechism is actually saying about hell.
Because you have free will.
I was asleep initially, but I was woken up by what seemed to be a shake on the back. I woke up, rolled over in bed, and as I did so, he started to materialise near the door.
If it is not a physical place, then it qualifies as a mental state by default.
Unless a “state of being” entails a physical state of being, then it necessarily involves a mental “state of being” by default.
It only matters what the current CCC says.
The CCC does not say that hell is merely a state. It says that the “teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity.” It also noted that you have conveniently eliminated that part of “article 1034” which you apparently found to be unpalatable. It says “Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!”
It doesn’t matter what Pope John Paul II personal beliefs were. It only matters what the CCC teaches.
Free will doesn’t explain anything as I have clearly shown in my previous thread “Free Will, Determinism, Indetrminism, Moral Responsibility, and Salvation.”
No, it is a spiritual state. The reason I protest against the word “mental” is that it seems to relegate it to some temporal, psychological mind-set. This is far too vague and wishy-washy. Hell is a reality, although not a spatial reality.
No, a state of being involves a spiritual state. Spiritual entities are not “in place” in the same sense as physical objects, which is why Hell is not described in spatial terms. Some good old fashioned Thomism might help here:Unless a “state of being” entails a physical state of being, then it necessarily involves a mental “state of being” by default.
As an EWTN article explains:
And why is that? Catholicism existed for nearly 2,000 years before the CCC was published in the 1990s. It is a “sure norm” for the faith but it is not infallible in itself. It is only infallible where its sources are infallible.
I did not eliminate it because I found it unpalatable. I eliminated it because I have to be economical with space and the rest merely reiterates the eternal fire imagery.
Those weren’t his personal beliefs. They constitute part of the ordinary Magisterium. They were him, in his office of pope, educating and teaching the faithful through a general audience.
Ah, so this is what is making you think hell is “spatial”. The resurrection of the body.
):vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20100818_en.html
zenit.org/article-7161?l=english
It appears to me that you were in the hypnagogic state (the “twilight zone” between waking and sleeping). This is typically the state of consciousness where apparitions and other psychic phenomena take place.
No, a state of being involves a spiritual state. Spiritual entities are not “in place” in the same sense as physical objects, which is why Hell is not described in spatial terms. Some good old fashioned Thomism might help here:
Aquinas explicitly states “but they * are in a PLACE” (emphasis mine). A “spiritual” place is some kind of place. And if it is not, then it must be a state of consciousness. (Whether we say it is a mental state of consciousness or spiritual state of consciousness is immaterial - pun intended).
And why is that? Catholicism existed for nearly 2,000 years before the CCC was published in the 1990s. It is a “sure norm” for the faith but it is not infallible in itself.Counterpoint:
Why? Because, to use your own words, it is a “sure norm” for the faith. And if it does not adequately represent the teachings of the Church, then the Church is guilty of spreading misinformation.
And we won’t get anywhere using your methodology either, because you are always appealing to some higher authority to interpret that which is supposedly authoritative.
If the CCC doesn’t say what it means and mean what it says, then it is meaningless. And that doesn’t speak very well for the Church and its capacity to verbally communicate its teaching.
", so how you are construing it as suggesting hell as being some spatial torture chamber with literal fire is incomprehensible to me
It most certainly does…
, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” (source: Article 1035, "The Catechism of the Catholic Church)
I already have - article 1035.*
Aquinas explicitly states “but they * are in a PLACE*” (emphasis mine). A “spiritual” place is some kind of place. And if it is not, then it must be a state of consciousness. (Whether we say it is a mental state of consciousness or spiritual state of consciousness is immaterial - pun intended).
No it doesn’t say in “a” place. It says “in place in a manner not cognizable to mortal men”, in a mysterious sense in which we cannot comprehend. In other words, not in a “place” as we know it. Coupled with his teaching that glorified bodies do not need a “place” to exist in outside this universe, do you really suppose that he regarded bodiless spirits as residing in a “place”?
Hypnagogic states are psychological states. (I did not check the Wikipedia reference.)
Yes, I agree. But the point I was making was that these experiences do not generally occur in our normal “waking” state of consciousness - the state that I am presently experiencing as I write this comment.
You are misconstruing what I said. I never argued that it was a hallucination. I myself have experienced a “visitation” from my grandmother when she passed. But my experienced occurred in the hypnagogic state. In fact, I have had many psychic experiences in this state of consciousness. That’s why I asked him if he was asleep or awake. I wanted to determine if he might have been in the hypnagogic state.
Mr. Crowley says he was woken up by a feeling and he rolled over to see his dad materialize. There is absolutely no point to your labelling and you most assuredly do not have the credentials to say whether or not he was subject to a transient psychological disorder/condition/symptom-complex (hypnagogic state). Give me a break!
Sorry, but this took place in my room. He appeared, we talked and argued, he drifted around the foot of the bed, at one threatening stage he was right over me (with eyes like dark pits), I could choose to see him or look through him (at an old chipboard bookcase against the far wall), and at the end he gave this terrific scream, which I still remember 35 years later. I even remember much of what we said.
You said you were in your bedroom. You said it was at night. So, were you in bed? Were you asleep and then awakened by the apparition?
As I replied earlier, I was awakened by what felt like a shake on the back - a couple of shakes if I remember rightly, just as if you used your hand to shake someone to get them to wake up. I often sleep face downwards, hence the “hand” on the back.
Well, the fact that you were awakened from sleep suggests to me that you were probably in the hypnagogic state - a state in which the mind is completely lucid even though the body is asleep.
There are both Heaven and Hell as material but human cannot see before death with eyes. Some relevant issues with topic: