Heaven cannot be timeless

[o_mlly]

This is simple: The state of Heaven is subjected to change because individuals are going there. The timeless Heaven cannot change. Hence Heaven cannot be timeless.

When one is in depressed and elevated by the kindness of another, one changes states but not places. A change in attitude is not a change in location.

Your posts, I think mostly about the derivative relation of things in time and things in eternity, are quite provocative. Perhaps an integrating question is, What is your concept of how time itself relates to eternity itself?

And, in as much as I have stumbled in commenting on your many questions about time, thank you for shortening my time in purgatory.

 

[PRmerger]

So you believe in timeless Heaven. That as it was argued is impossible.

Nope. No one has demonstrated that that this is impossible.

 

[PRmerger]

How time could be linear from human perspective if Heaven is timeless?

We assess time linearly.

It is a human construct. A human way of evaluating reality

When we are in heaven, all of reality is made present before us, eternally, as the NOW.

 

[YosefYosep]

I agree but the church apparently teaches a timeless Heaven. I don’t have any reference for that, I am sorry.

I didn’t find anything in the Catechism concerning heaven’s timelessness. I think this is a realm for theologians and philosophers. As far as I know, there is no definitive statement by the Church on whether or not heaven has some sort of time. But as I mentioned earlier, there is obviously some sequential process when it comes to life beyond death.

I don’t think we’ll be necessarily timeless like God is. I do think we will undergo something akin to time, but not like the time here on earth where our lives our doled out to us constantly. Time is the measure of change. In the material world, things are always changing. Even our immaterial minds change from potentially thinking about something to actually thinking about something. Now in heaven, is there change? Will there be movements from potency to act? Perhaps.

All I know, is that heaven is not our final destination. We are soul-body composites, and will return to our bodies at the Resurrection of the Dead. When we are whole again, we will experience time. We ill be able to go from potentially walking to actually walking. This is change. Therefore, there will be most definitely befores and afters again.

 

[Monosilencecca]

Events happen. We will continue to grow in the new Heaven and Earth. Change = Time.

 

[Bahman]

When one is in depressed and elevated by the kindness of another, one changes states but not places. A change in attitude is not a change in location.

Your posts, I think mostly about the derivative relation of things in time and things in eternity, are quite provocative. Perhaps an integrating question is, What is your concept of how time itself relates to eternity itself?

I have problems with time and eternity. We need to replace time with motion. Eternity (without beginning) is an illogical concept. Why you don’t open a thread on this topic so we can discuss them?

And, in as much as I have stumbled in commenting on your many questions about time, thank you for shortening my time in purgatory.

Your welcome.

 

[Bahman]

Nope. No one has demonstrated that that this is impossible.

So I give it a try. Suppose you will go to heaven. Are you in heaven now? No. This means that the state of Heaven changes by time from our perspective once you enter it. Something which changes cannot be timeless since you need time to explain changes.

 

[Bahman]

We assess time linearly.

Yes, we assess time linearly in our universe. We are talking about Heaven though.

It is a human construct. A human way of evaluating reality.

You mean that time is not real?

When we are in heaven, all of reality is made present before us, eternally, as the NOW.

I cannot understand you. Could you please elaborate? By the way do you have any reference, from Church, to agree with you about the fact that Heaven is timeless.

 

[PRmerger]

So I give it a try. Suppose you will go to heaven. Are you in heaven now? No. This means that the state of Heaven changes by time from our perspective once you enter it. Something which changes cannot be timeless since you need time to explain changes.

From our perspective, yes. From heaven’s perspective, (which, BTW, is the only REAL perspective. All other things are merely ciphers), no.

 

[PRmerger]

You mean that time is not real?

Time is a human construct. Its reality is dependent upon our imaginations.

 

[PRmerger]

I cannot understand you. Could you please elaborate?

How about if you read the Catechism and then come back and we can chat?

By the way do you have any reference, from Church, to agree with you about the fact that Heaven is timeless.

“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy”
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/600.htm

“LOVE, IN FACT, IS THE VOCATION WHICH INCLUDES ALL OTHERS; IT’S A UNIVERSE OF ITS OWN, COMPRISING ALL TIME AND SPACE - IT’S ETERNAL!”
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/826.htm

“At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. Then the just will reign with Christ for ever, glorified in body and soul, and the material universe itself will be transformed. God will then be “all in all” (1 Cor 15:28), in eternal life.”
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1060.htm

And, of course, we speak of the “end of time”, which means, when we are in heaven…there is…no…time.

 

[Rolltide]

I have problems with time and eternity. We need to replace time with motion. Eternity (without beginning) is an illogical concept.

Believe it or not, this is something that can be explored through science to a great degree. Time is a construct of our universe. We know from Einstein’s Theories of Relativity that it is inherently tied to space, mass, and velocity. For example, the reason that the speed of light cannot be surpassed is because it is tied to time and mass. As an object accelerates, its mass increases and time slows down for the occupant from the perspective of someone watching the object at a standstill. If one were able to actually hit the speed of light, their mass would become infinite and time would completely cease to function. It would stop, and you would enter “eternity”, for lack of a better word. All things would happen simultaneously. Items with mass can’t reach the speed of light, because you can’t accelerate an infinite mass. Now objects without mass, such as photons, can travel at the speed of light. By definition, they are outside of time (and interestingly, outside the normal rules of space as well). This can actually be proved through things like “quantum entanglement”, something that Einstein called “spooky action at a distance”. It is possible for a photon to literally be in two places at once, or have a particle affect the action of another a vast distance away with seemingly no connection. This can occur because time is not a factor. It all simply happens “now”. It’s a really hard concept, but there’s tremendous scientific evidence for it.

 

[Bahman]

How about if you read the Catechism and then come back and we can chat?

“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy”
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/600.htm

“LOVE, IN FACT, IS THE VOCATION WHICH INCLUDES ALL OTHERS; IT’S A UNIVERSE OF ITS OWN, COMPRISING ALL TIME AND SPACE - IT’S ETERNAL!”
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/826.htm

“At the end of time, the Kingdom of God will come in its fullness. Then the just will reign with Christ for ever, glorified in body and soul, and the material universe itself will be transformed. God will then be “all in all” (1 Cor 15:28), in eternal life.”
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1060.htm

And, of course, we speak of the “end of time”, which means, when we are in heaven…there is…no…time.

Non of links you offered talk about timeless Heaven.

 

[Bahman]

Believe it or not, this is something that can be explored through science to a great degree. Time is a construct of our universe. We know from Einstein’s Theories of Relativity that it is inherently tied to space, mass, and velocity. For example, the reason that the speed of light cannot be surpassed is because it is tied to time and mass. As an object accelerates, its mass increases and time slows down for the occupant from the perspective of someone watching the object at a standstill. If one were able to actually hit the speed of light, their mass would become infinite and time would completely cease to function. It would stop, and you would enter “eternity”, for lack of a better word. All things would happen simultaneously. Items with mass can’t reach the speed of light, because you can’t accelerate an infinite mass. Now objects without mass, such as photons, can travel at the speed of light. By definition, they are outside of time (and interestingly, outside the normal rules of space as well). This can actually be proved through things like “quantum entanglement”, something that Einstein called “spooky action at a distance”. It is possible for a photon to literally be in two places at once, or have a particle affect the action of another a vast distance away with seemingly no connection. This can occur because time is not a factor. It all simply happens “now”. It’s a really hard concept, but there’s tremendous scientific evidence for it.

Could you perceive time with your senses? What we perceive is form and motion hence objective time is not real. Time is axillary variable which helps us to do calculation.

 

[PRmerger]

Non of links you offered talk about timeless Heaven.

Of course they do.

They talk about what happens after we die.

And that is, implicitly, a reference to heaven.

 

[Rolltide]

Could you perceive time with your senses? What we perceive is form and motion hence objective time is not real. Time is axillary variable which helps us to do calculation.

Humans live in the universe, and we have mass, as long as we are joined with our bodies. So, as long as we are alive and have mass, we are able to perceive time. Once we die, we will remain only a soul, which does not have mass. Therefore, it would likely be timeless, and function in the same way as a massless particle like a photon. In other words, we would exist in eternity, without time as a construct whatsoever.

 

[Bahman]

Of course they do.

They talk about what happens after we die.

And that is, implicitly, a reference to heaven.

I read them again and didn’t find any discussion about Heaven.

 

[Bahman]

Humans live in the universe, and we have mass, as long as we are joined with our bodies. So, as long as we are alive and have mass, we are able to perceive time. Once we die, we will remain only a soul, which does not have mass. Therefore, it would likely be timeless, and function in the same way as a massless particle like a photon. In other words, we would exist in eternity, without time as a construct whatsoever.

Can you experience time?

 

[Lion_IRC]

This is simple: The state of Heaven is subjected to change because individuals are going there. The timeless Heaven cannot change. Hence Heaven cannot be timeless.

Are you saying that heaven needs to be a frozen, motionless, changeless place full of silent statues in order to meet your peculiar definition of “timeless”?

I don’t see how that that is a metaphysical requirement.

Heaven doesn’t necessarily ‘change’ just because it is inhabited by moving people.

 

[Bahman]

Are you saying that heaven needs to be a frozen, motionless, changeless place full of silent statues in order to meet your peculiar definition of “timeless”?

Yes.

I don’t see how that that is a metaphysical requirement.

It is a metaphysical requirement because you cannot have changes in a timeless thing.

Heaven doesn’t necessarily ‘change’ just because it is inhabited by moving people.

It does of course change.