Heaven is for Real

[Memaw]

I think you are kinda of like St. Thomas who doubted it all until he put his hand into Christ’s wound. I know you believe but maybe you can’t absorb these NDE unless it should happen to you.

Not finding the words to explain something in a NDE isn’t unusual. I know of a school mate’s father who had an NDE. He couldn’t explain the colors because he never saw those hues before and, although the music was beautiful, it was beyond his ability to describe it. He was a man and the above was a child. So it doesn’t seem to make any difference because what is there is beyond our ability to fully describe because we have no reference point on this earth for what is expereinced there. Isn’t that how it is suppose to be?

A friend and I just finished PROOF OF HEAVEN. I found it a little too New Age and she was skeptical too mainly because we’d like to have had him meet Christ etc. HOWEVER, whatever he experienced changed his attitude, his belief system and his life. He went from an atheist to a believer after his experience. How does that happen?

I am flattered you compared me to St. Thomas, at least you didn’t say I called anyone a liar. Didn’t you just say you found it a little to New Age. Sounds like your a Thomas too. I didn’t say those who have NDEs didn’t experience something in their mind but I do wonder what causes it. I have visited mental wards before and many of the patients think they hear and see strange religious things. Many are convinced they see people who have died. The mind is an amazing thing connected to the brain that may not be functioning very well at the time. God Bless, Memaw

 

[aicirt]

I am flattered you compared me to St. Thomas, at least you didn’t call me a liar. Didn’t you just say you found it a little to New Age. Sounds like your a Thomas too. I didn’t say those who have NDEs didn’t experience something in their mind but I do wonder what causes it. I have visited mental wards before and many of the patients think they hear and see strange religious things. Many are convinced they see people who have died. The mind is an amazing thing connected to the brain that may not be functioning very well at the time. God Bless, Memaw

No, I believe they experienced a NDE because it changed their lives. They continue to function in the world. They were not diagnosed with any mental incapacities before or after the NDEs.

How about what we call the CAll? As Catholics we refer to this as a call to religious life. I believe that really happens. I haven’t had that call but I believe others have. Do they suffer from a mental disorder? No. They are intelligent people who hear the CALL (and sometimes it is an actual voice) and change their lives to serve God accordingly. God works in mysterious ways.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

We know saints have had visions. Some have seen hell. Have any seen heaven?

 

[Cricket2]

I think you are kinda of like St. Thomas who doubted it all until he put his hand into Christ’s wound. I know you believe but maybe you can’t absorb these NDE unless it should happen to you.

Not finding the words to explain something in a NDE isn’t unusual. I know of a school mate’s father who had an NDE. He couldn’t explain the colors because he never saw those hues before and, although the music was beautiful, it was beyond his ability to describe it. He was a man and the above was a child. So it doesn’t seem to make any difference because what is there is beyond our ability to fully describe because we have no reference point on this earth for what is expereinced there. Isn’t that how it is suppose to be?

A friend and I just finished PROOF OF HEAVEN. I found it a little too New Age and she was skeptical too mainly because we’d like to have had him meet Christ etc. HOWEVER, whatever he experienced changed his attitude, his belief system and his life. He went from an atheist to a believer after his experience. How does that happen?

Going from one who is a “non-believer” to one who does believe, is an amazing change and as far as I am concerned a bit of proof in the NDE of such individuals. I also believe that people do get to have glimpses of hell.

In his younger days my brother had a terrible problem with being a typical, rotten teenager type who liked to drive his car way too fast. One time he was headed at 90mph toward a local intersection when he says he saw the “grim reaper.” He saw a huge dark form that looked like the iconic figures we often depict the “reaper” as appearing, wearing a full body dark hooded cloak with staff in hand.

At this point my brother insists he could fee “DEATH” and that without his conscious effort his foot hit the brake. As his car came to a stop the light had changed and a huge semi ran the red light at the intersection. My brother knew then and there that he would have died, and he could not explain the rest except to say he knew that if he had died he would have “lost God.” It would have been “an eternal death.”

He was so petrified that he actual called our mom to come get him and refused to drive his car home. He never drove like an idiot after that. My mom told him she believed God had given him a warning and that he had better listen to it. She believed him totally. I see no reason for folks to question the possibility of others seeing things like this…God can use visions to get our attention.

 

[Havard]

I saw Colton, his dad, and the director of the film interviewed on Hannity (I know, I know, Hannity… anyway).

I just didn’t find the interview very compelling. As previous posters mentioned, perhaps it’s just hard to put it into words, however even taking that into consideration, he did put it into words, and what he described seemed just far too banal.

It struck me like a Thomas Kinkade painting crossed with a Hallmark Original movie.

Shrug.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Have any saints had visions of heaven?
St Faustina “saw” hell, and was told of the joys of heaven but did not actually “see” it. So, I am wondering, if in Catholicism visions are quite common. Why then outside of Catholicism are visions of heaven the seeming norm?

My friend asked me this and it really got me thinking, (and doubting) this idea and story.

 

[suko]

Have any saints had visions of heaven?
St Faustina “saw” hell, and was told of the joys of heaven but did not actually “see” it. So, I am wondering, if in Catholicism visions are quite common. Why then outside of Catholicism are visions of heaven the seeming norm?

My friend asked me this and it really got me thinking, (and doubting) this idea and story.

Are u sure St. Faustina never “saw” heaven? I just did a quick google search for “Saints who saw heaven”, and this site came up that seems to talk about St. Faustina having seen Heaven. Unless this site has false information, I’m not sure as I don’t have her book to compare to.

Why then outside of Catholicism are visions of heaven the seeming norm?

I think the reason why Saints generally have not had visions of Heaven is because they don’t need them. They already have been fully and truly converted in their hearts to God, in a more substantial and mystical way, thus, a Heavenly vision for them is not necessary (it is necessary for those that experience NDEs, since their hearts are often so far from God and they need to see and experience a little bit of Heaven so that their hearts may be fully transformed in a profound way). However, I think visions of Hell are necessary for many of the Saints so that they may warn others that it indeed is still real, since many people, I think, doubt that it’s real or that God in His great mercy wouldn’t send anyone there, etc… The Fatima children had visions of Hell so that they may warn others and, I think, to help further convert their hearts to God even more since I’m sure the Lord knew that these visions for them would help them to live an even more extraordinary life of penance for the salvation of souls. I think in the grand scheme of things, warning people about the existence and reality of Hell might be more important than letting people know that they may go to Heaven.

 

[Memaw]

We know saints have had visions. Some have seen hell. Have any seen heaven?

That’s very different than an NDE

 

[Memaw]

No, I believe they experienced a NDE because it changed their lives. They continue to function in the world. They were not diagnosed with any mental incapacities before or after the NDEs.

How about what we call the CAll? As Catholics we refer to this as a call to religious life. I believe that really happens. I haven’t had that call but I believe others have. Do they suffer from a mental disorder? No. They are intelligent people who hear the CALL (and sometimes it is an actual voice) and change their lives to serve God accordingly. God works in mysterious ways.

I didn’t say those who had NDEs were diagnosed with mental in capacities… But if they were that close to death, they may not have had enough oxygen for the brain to function normally. Many things can be the reason there is a change in lives, even a close call. Makes us stop and think how fragile life really is. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

That’s very different than an NDE

I don’t see how, unless God somehow makes mistakes and leaves the circus tent unsecured. The Idea o NDE goes against a traditional belief in purgatory as well. A belief we are required to have as Catholics.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Are u sure St. Faustina never “saw” heaven? I just did a quick google search for “Saints who saw heaven”, and this .

Hmm it would appear you are correct.
From her diary

“…I Saw two roads. One was broad, covered with sand and flowers, full of joy, music and all sorts of pleasures. People walked along it, dancing and enjoying themselves. They reached the end without realizing it. And at the end of the road there was a horrible precipice; that is, the abyss of hell. The souls fell blindly into it; as they walked, so they fell. And their number was so great that it was impossible to count them. And I saw the other road, or rather, a path, for it was narrow and strewn with thorns and rocks; and the people who walked along it had tears in their eyes, and all kinds of suffering befell them. Some fell down upon the rocks, but stood up immediately and went on. At the end of the road there was a magnificent garden filled with all sorts of happiness and all these souls entered there. At the very first instant they forgot all their sufferings” (Diary 153).

Hell:
" Today, I was led by an Angel to the chasms of hell. It is a place of great torture; how awesomely large and extensive it is! The kinds of tortures I saw: the first torture that constitutes hell is the loss of God; the second is perpetual remorse of conscience; the third is that one’s condition will never change; the fourth is the fire that will penetrate the soul without destroying it, a terrible suffering, since it is a purely spiritual fire, lit by God’s anger; the fifth torture is conditional darkness and a terrible suffocating smell, and despite the darkness, the devils and the souls of the damned see each other and all the evil, both of others and their own; the sixth torture is the constant company of satan, the seventh torture is horrible despair, hatred of God, vile words, curses and blasphemies. These are the tortures suffered by all the damned together, but that is not the end of the sufferings. There are special tortures destined for particular souls. These are the torments of the senses. Each soul undergoes terrible and indescribable sufferings, related to the manner in which it has sinned. There are caverns and pits of torture where one form of agony differs from another. I would have died at the very sight of these tortures if the omnipotence of God had not supported me. Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout all eternity, in those senses which he made use of to sin. I am writing this at the command of God, so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like. I, sister Faustina, by the order of God, have visited the abysses of hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify to its existence. I cannot speak about it now; but I have received a command from God to leave it in writing. The devils were full of hatred for me, but they had to obey me at the command of God. What I have written is but a pale shadow of the things I saw. But I noticed one thing: that most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell. When I came to, I could hardly recover from the fright. How terribly souls suffer there! Consequently, I pray even more fervently for the conversion of sinners. I incessantly plead God’s mercy upon them. O my Jesus, I would rather be in agony until the end of the world, amidst the greatest sufferings, then offend You by the least sin. (Diary 741).

Pugatory:
" …I saw my Guardian Angel, who ordered me to follow him. In a moment I was in a misty place full of fire in which there was a great crowd of suffering souls. They were praying fervently, but to no avail, for themselves; only we can come to their aid. The flames, which were burning them, did not touch me at all. My Guardian Angel did not leave me for an instant. I asked these souls what their greatest suffering was. They answered me in one voice that their greatest torment was longing for God. I saw Our Lady visiting the souls in Purgatory. The souls call Her “The Star of the Sea”. She brings them refreshment. I wanted to talk with them some more, but my Guardian Angel beckoned me to leave. We went out of that prison of suffering. * ‘My mercy does not want this, but justice demands it. Since that time, I am in closer communion with the suffering souls.’” (Diary, 20)

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

cont.

Heaven:
" November 27, 1936. Today I was in heaven, in spirit, and I saw its unconceivable beauties and the happiness that awaits us after death. I saw how all creatures give ceaseless praise and glory to God. I saw how great is happiness in God, which spreads to all creatures, making them happy; and then all the glory and praise which springs from this happiness returns to its source; and they enter into the depths of God, contemplating the inner life of God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, whom they will never comprehend or fathom. This source of happiness is unchanging in its essence, but it is always new, gushing forth happiness for all creatures. Now I understand Saint Paul, who said, “Eye has not seen, nor has ear heard, not has it entered into the heart of man what God has prepared for those who love him.” And God has given me to understand that there is but one thing that is of infinite value in His eyes, and that is love of God; love, love and once again, love; and nothing can compare with a single act of pure love of God. Oh, with what inconceivable favors God gifts a soul that loves Him sincerely! Oh, how happy is the soul who already here on earth enjoys His special favors! And of such are the little and humble souls. The sight of this great majesty of God, which I came to understand more profoundly and which is worshipped by the heavenly spirits according to their degree of grace and the hierarchies into which they are divided, did not cause my soul to be stricken with terror or fear; no, no, not at all! My soul was filled with peace and love, and the more I come to know the greatness of God, the more joyful I become that He is as He is. And I rejoice immensely in His greatness and am delighted that I am so little because, since I am little, He carries me in His arms and holds me close to His Heart. O my God, how I pity those people who do not believe in eternal life; how I pray for them that a ray of mercy would envelop them too, and that God would clasp them to His fatherly bosom… "
(Diary 777).E

A couple of quick thoughts. I find it hard to reconcile the above with the words of Paul.
Also notice that she had visions of purgatory as well. Which would be what an NDE should be of right? Unless one dies in a state of grace with no temporal punishment due.

How does this vision compare to the boy’s? Is it consistent or are there differences.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I think the reason why Saints generally have not had visions of Heaven is because they don’t need them. They already have been fully and truly converted in their hearts to God, in a more substantial and mystical way, thus, a Heavenly vision for them is not necessary (it is necessary for those that experience NDEs, since their hearts are often so far from God and they need to see and experience a little bit of Heaven so that their hearts may be fully transformed in a profound way). However, I think visions of Hell are necessary for many of the Saints so that they may warn others that it indeed is still real, since many people, I think, doubt that it’s real or that God in His great mercy wouldn’t send anyone there, etc… The Fatima children had visions of Hell so that they may warn others and, I think, to help further convert their hearts to God even more since I’m sure the Lord knew that these visions for them would help them to live an even more extraordinary life of penance for the salvation of souls. I think in the grand scheme of things, warning people about the existence and reality of Hell might be more important than letting people know that they may go to Heaven.

Saints don’t really have visions for their OWN conversions anyway. So your explaation does not make sense.

 

[Memaw]

I don’t see how, unless God somehow makes mistakes and leaves the circus tent unsecured. The Idea o NDE goes against a traditional belief in purgatory as well. A belief we are required to have as Catholics.

They are not close to death with possible lack of oxygen to the brain. God Bless, Memaw

 

[Cricket2]

I don’t see how, unless God somehow makes mistakes and leaves the circus tent unsecured. The Idea o NDE goes against a traditional belief in purgatory as well. A belief we are required to have as Catholics.

I have to disagree with you. My own NDE is how I learned that God even existed. Prior to that I did not know anything about God. All I knew is that things existed, but I had no idea or concept as to how they came about. My family did not go to Church, did not talk about God or salvation, or anything of the kind. Nor was my family very active within the community so that I would have had any way of hearing others speak of God. I didn’t even know what a Church was.

After my NDE I knew God existed; that I could offer my sufferings to Him for the salvation of souls; that it was very important, (vital in fact); that people knew there was a God; that there was heaven and hell; that I wanted to be a Catholic. Now how to you explain that? And honestly I was not “provided” with any belief or thoughts on purgatory and only learned about that when I started to study the Catholic Faith in my teens.

Folks can get just a little to engrossed in Doctrine for their own good. God works with us as individuals according to our need. He does not shove Doctrine down our throats, He makes us aware of His reality, His presence, His love, His holiness etc. He gives us His love, which is transforming and does not require Doctrine to be understood. In fact I experienced Love during my NDE that I had never known, and though I could understand it during the NDE, I can hardly explain the extent of it now, at least not in words.

I don’t think anyone should be trying to evaluate the validity of a NDE via the teachings of the Church, of any Church or her Doctrine. It is an experience that exceeds the limits of these teachings and doctrine.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I have to disagree with you. My own NDE is how I learned that God even existed. Prior to that I did not know anything about God. All I knew is that things existed, but I had no idea or concept as to how they came about. My family did not go to Church, did not talk about God or salvation, or anything of the kind. Nor was my family very active within the community so that I would have had any way of hearing others speak of God. I didn’t even know what a Church was.

After my NDE I knew God existed; that I could offer my sufferings to Him for the salvation of souls; that it was very important, (vital in fact); that people knew there was a God; that there was heaven and hell; that I wanted to be a Catholic. Now how to you explain that? And honestly I was not “provided” with any belief or thoughts on purgatory and only learned about that when I started to study the Catholic Faith in my teens.

Folks can get just a little to engrossed in Doctrine for their own good. God works with us as individuals according to our need. He does not shove Doctrine down our throats, He makes us aware of His reality, His presence, His love, His holiness etc. He gives us His love, which is transforming and does not require Doctrine to be understood. In fact I experienced Love during my NDE that I had never known, and though I could understand it during the NDE, I can hardly explain the extent of it now, at least not in words.

I don’t think anyone should be trying to evaluate the validity of a NDE via the teachings of the Church, of any Church or her Doctrine. It is an experience that exceeds the limits of these teachings and doctrine.

While it may be emotional, and a very real experience that brings one closer to God. I fail to see how it is in any way Theological. Which as Catholics we must consider. Lob all the “engrossed in doctrine” bombs you wish. It is that engrossing that keeps us believing in things like the Eucharist, praying for those in purgatory, and how to reach the place you claim to have seen.

 

[lililu]

I saw the movie last night. It is beautifully filmed and the acting by Greg Kinnear and and the little boy playing his son was wonderful. The movie does spend time on the very things that are being discussed here; such as, what is a near death experience and how can it be explained. It does focus on the difficulties that the father and mother are experiencing, partly due to the little boy’s near death experience and partly due to financial and other strains that every family experiences. I think this review from Catholic News Service will help:

catholicnews.com/data/movies/14mv048.htm

 

[suko]

Saints don’t really have visions for their OWN conversions anyway. So your explaation does not make sense.

Heavenly visions generally appear for the good of the person (at least from what we can tell with NDEs), and since many of the Saints have already given their lives to Christ/been genuinely converted in their hearts/etc., why would they generally need a vision of Heaven? Anyway, I was just trying to answer your question of “Why then outside of Catholicism are visions of heaven the seeming norm?”

 

[maryjk]

I read the book and wasn’t to impressed by it. Seems the Father remembered more than the son actually did. Had a very protestant theme to it. He saw Grandpa and a sister but no sign of the Blessed Mother. I won’t go see the movie. I don’t know why their pushing it so much, they never did the book, that I know of anyway. God Bless, Memaw

Me either. Wasn’t impressed, I mean.

I always wondered how the father remembered more. HE wasn’t supposed to have been there, just the boy.

But then again the father is a preacher. So that might explain why he knew more about it.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Heavenly visions generally appear for the good of the person (at least from what we can tell with NDEs), and since many of the Saints have already given their lives to Christ/been genuinely converted in their hearts/etc., why would they generally need a vision of Heaven? Anyway, I was just trying to answer your question of “Why then outside of Catholicism are visions of heaven the seeming norm?”

If that were true then these NDEs would almost always result in conversion to Catholicism. The Catholic Church is the normative means of salvation. It would seem odd that a God would show a boy heaven for the purpose of his soul and the conversion of others and then not show the Church. Think about it. A taste of heaven and then nothing. No sacrament of reconciliation to help this young boy. No Eucharist to give him sanctifying graces, no Church to lead him and direct his morality. NO vision of purgatory to help his loved ones who have gone before him. I believe they are Wesleyan Methodists. So we are talking about a complete void of a huge part of revelation of God through the Church’s Magisterium and Sacraments. So God allows this vision of heaven in all it’s complexities and majesty, yet forgets to show the vehicle to arrive at this destination? Odd.