Heb. 6:4-6

[JustaServant]

“…For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”(KJV)
I often hear this verse used against those (like myself) who have crossed the Tiber and returned to the Church. What is interesting is that it directly goes against thier doctrine of ‘once saved always saved’.

 

[sandusky]

“…For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”(KJV)
I often hear this verse used against those (like myself) who have crossed the Tiber and returned to the Church. What is interesting is that it directly goes against thier doctrine of ‘once saved always saved’.

I think it more pointedly condemns reverts.

 

[LilyM]

I think it more pointedly condemns reverts.

Uh huh, in other words it’s not possible for anyone to sin by leaving the faith and then repent and return??? How ridiculous.

 

[Hellisreal]

I think it more pointedly condemns reverts.

No it does not. Ridiculous. Unless they really knew and believed it WAS the true Church, and THEN left.

Lets not be hasty as there are many reverts here, and most of the stories I have read here are along the lines of they did not know what they should have, poor formation, ect.

 

[JustaServant]

I think it more pointedly condemns reverts.

I see your profile says you are Reformed. How does what you posted jive with your Calvinistic theology?

 

[Pete_1]

We had a message on this in mass to day, does this interpretation conflict with the story of the prodical son?

 

[Pete_1]

No it does not. Unless they really knew and believed it WAS the true Church, and THEN left.

We had a message like this in mass today,
Does not the story of the prodical son say that you can return to the church no matter what you have done? I may be wrong in my interpretation, just my opinion

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

“…For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”(KJV)
I often hear this verse used against those (like myself) who have crossed the Tiber and returned to the Church. What is interesting is that it directly goes against thier doctrine of ‘once saved always saved’.

As you know the book of Hebrews is written to Jewish Christians. The reason it is impossible for them to return to Christ is due to culture of judaism. After returning to Judaism, and leaving Christ, it would take a serious act of humbling oneself to admit that they were wrong to leave the church to return to the Jewish religion. Thus culturally, because of family ties, being exposed to Jewish polemics against christianity, protection of them by fellow Jewish people who are now looking out for them to keep them from returning to the christian church and so on. By this time in history if a Jewish person joined the christian church their Jewish family would hold view of the “christian” person as being dead and burried. So, in response to their use, simply put the text in its historical cultural context to demonstrate that it is NOT speaking of changing chrisitan demoninations, but is speaking about leaving christianity to return to judaism.

 

[Pax]

The historical context of this passage has to do with the early Christian converts and persecution. The Jews and the Romans were both persecuting and martyring Christians. Apostasy was the only way to save your life and there were many that apostasized rather than to die for Christ.

The Romans would allow someone to live if they disowned the faith and swore an oath that Ceasar was god. Scripture warns us in other places about this kind of thing as well. We simply cannot choose our own lives, let alone anything else, over the Lord. If we do such a thing we have cut ourselves off, and in doing so it is extremely unlikely that we will ever turn back to the way of truth.

There may be a slight element of hyperbole in the passage in Hebrews, but if so it is there for the sake of emphasis. There may indeed be occassions where someone commits apostasy and then returns to the faith, but these are probably the rare exception.
Likewise, falling away from the faith without the element of outright apostasy may also make restoration difficult if not impossible. To fall away from believing that Jesus is the son of God and our Savior is a huge deal. It is not the same as simply falling into sin and neglecting to participate. The latter happens to many and many of these are restored. The story of the prodigal son may be more aptly directed toward this group than to those that apostasize or fall away.

 

[sandusky]

Ok, so then, it doesn’t affect what the OP thinks it does. :tiphat:

 

[Church_Militant]

“…For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”(KJV)
I often hear this verse used against those (like myself) who have crossed the Tiber and returned to the Church. What is interesting is that it directly goes against their doctrine of ‘once saved always saved’.

Yes, it certainly does, but the funny part is that not even all n-C Christians believe that.

Some folks act like it’s set in concrete…and others say it never was.

I believed it at one time…further reading in the Word of God cured that.

 

[Linkowski]

“…For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”(KJV)
I often hear this verse used against those (like myself) who have crossed the Tiber and returned to the Church. What is interesting is that it directly goes against thier doctrine of ‘once saved always saved’.

1Jo 5:16 If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.
17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.
18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Eschatologically speaking - OSAS

Note that this is in the context of mortal sin which is an utter falling away as described in Hebrews 6:4-6/Heb 10:26-29…

Those that are justified WILL BE GLORIFIED!!! Praise God!

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

 

[Hellisreal]

We had a message like this in mass today,
Does not the story of the prodical son say that you can return to the church no matter what you have done? I may be wrong in my interpretation, just my opinion

One can find a way to return, absolutely correct.

Welcome to CAF Pete.

 

[mikeledes]

The problem with this passage is that the characteristics of the group of people described in Hebrews 6 are those of genuine Christians.

**4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. **

The key is verse 6. If there was no genuine repentance to begin with, how can they be renewed again to something they never did or experienced. Secondly, if their first repentance was not a genuine repentance, then why would we want to renew them again to a fake or superficial repentance again? Wouldn’t we want them to genuinely repent?

The other key verse is verse 4. They are described as “partakers of the Holy Spirit.” In the Bible, to partake is not merely an association. Partake means more than just a mere association, it means to have an actual share in or potion of something. For example:

1 Corinthians 10:17

**17Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread. **

We do not “associate” with the bread. We **receive a portion **of the bread to eat.

Hebrews 12:8

8But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Does this mean that we are merely “associated” with the Lord’s discipline or do we actually experience it?

So if the person has been made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, they have received their “share” of the Holy Spirit. In other words, they have the Holy Spirit. Only genuine Christians can be partakers of the Holy Spirit. Now add to this the fact that they have repented and we see that the profile of the people referred to in this passage is that of genuine Christians.

Now some may point to verses 4 and 5 where we find the word “tasted.” They will argue that this means that the people in this passage have not fully experienced what a genuine Christian experienced. They have only received a taste, a kind if appetizer. But they have not received the main course. However, “taste” in the Bible does not necessarily mean a superficial or partial experience. Let’s take a look at Hebrews 2:9

**…because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. **

Does this mean that Jesus did not fully experience death? That He only had a mere superficial experience? So “taste” does not necessarily mean that the people referred to in this passage have not a genuinely Christian experience.

Finally, Hebrews 6 must be read in conjunction with Hebrews 10:29, since both passages refer to the same group of people:

29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

How can a person who has repented (Heb. 6:6), been made a “partaker of the Holy Spirit” and be “sanctified by the blood of Christ”, not be a genuine Christian? Indeed, the word “sanctified” has been used in the Bible to mean set apart for a specific holy purpose, but the Bible never uses sanctified by the blood of Christ if it is not referring to Christians.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Linkowski]

Your interpretations go entirely against the passages of 1st John…

Not of God - and Never Was…
1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother,** is in darkness even until now.**
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3 John 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Born of God…

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.
1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
1Jo 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.
1Jo 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1Jo 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
2Jo 1:2 for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:

BOTH

1Jo 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
1Jo 4:4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.
5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.
6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
2Jo 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

Only the elect will be saved and can ever be justified…

John 6:44 **No man can come to me, except **the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[sandusky]

The problem with this passage is that the characteristics of the group of people described in Hebrews 6 are those of genuine Christians.

4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

The key is verse 6. If there was no genuine repentance to begin with, how can they be renewed again to something they never did or experienced. Secondly, if their first repentance was not a genuine repentance, then why would we want to renew them again to a fake or superficial repentance again? Wouldn’t we want them to genuinely repent?

The other key verse is verse 4. They are described as “partakers of the Holy Spirit.” In the Bible, to partake is not merely an association. Partake means more than just a mere association, it means to have an actual share in or potion of something. For example:

1 Corinthians 10:17

17Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.

We do not “associate” with the bread. We **receive a portion **of the bread to eat.

Hebrews 12:8

8But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Does this mean that we are merely “associated” with the Lord’s discipline or do we actually experience it?

So if the person has been made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, they have received their “share” of the Holy Spirit. In other words, they have the Holy Spirit. Only genuine Christians can be partakers of the Holy Spirit. Now add to this the fact that they have repented and we see that the profile of the people referred to in this passage is that of genuine Christians.

Now some may point to verses 4 and 5 where we find the word “tasted.” They will argue that this means that the people in this passage have not fully experienced what a genuine Christian experienced. They have only received a taste, a kind if appetizer. But they have not received the main course. However, “taste” in the Bible does not necessarily mean a superficial or partial experience. Let’s take a look at Hebrews 2:9

**…because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death **for everyone.

Does this mean that Jesus did not fully experience death? That He only had a mere superficial experience? So “taste” does not necessarily mean that the people referred to in this passage have not a genuinely Christian experience.

Finally, Hebrews 6 must be read in conjunction with Hebrews 10:29, since both passages refer to the same group of people:

29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

How can a person who has repented (Heb. 6:6), been made a “partaker of the Holy Spirit” and be “sanctified by the blood of Christ”, not be a genuine Christian? Indeed, the word “sanctified” has been used in the Bible to mean set apart for a specific holy purpose, but the Bible never uses sanctified by the blood of Christ if it is not referring to Christians.

God Bless,
Michael

You’re going to anger all of the reverts, Mike.

 

[Pax]

Your interpretations go entirely against the passages of 1st John…

Not of God - and Never Was…
1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother,** is in darkness even until now.**
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3 John 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Born of God…

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.
1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
1Jo 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.
1Jo 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1Jo 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
2Jo 1:2 for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:

BOTH

1Jo 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
1Jo 4:4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.
5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.
6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
2Jo 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

Only the elect will be saved and can ever be justified…

John 6:44 **No man can come to me, except **the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Sorry Link, but you are somewhat confused about 1 John and are attempting to use a misunderstanding of this letter to refute Hebrews. This simply doesn’t work. What you need to do first and foremost is look carefully at the book of Hebrews without preconceived ideas. This is especially important in regards to OSAS. If you focus on Hebrews you will understand Hebrews. If you want to analyze 1 John we can do that too, but it would be best to do it on another thread. I can assure you of one thing;1 John in no way supports OSAS nor does it contradict Hebrews or Mike’s take on it in his prior post.

 

[mikeledes]

Your interpretations go entirely against the passages of 1st John…

Not of God - and Never Was…
1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother,** is in darkness even until now.**
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
3 John 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Born of God…

1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.
1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
1Jo 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.
1Jo 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1Jo 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
19 We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
2Jo 1:2 for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:

BOTH

1Jo 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
1Jo 4:4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.
5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.
6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
2Jo 1:9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

Only the elect will be saved and can ever be justified…

John 6:44 **No man can come to me, except **the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So Hebrews is saying that they cannot be renewed again to fake or superficial repentance? That makes a lot of sense.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Were the Galatians genuine Christians, Linkowksi?

Galatians 1:6-7

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Or is turning away from God to a different gospel not a grievous sin.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

The problem with this passage is that the characteristics of the group of people described in Hebrews 6 are those of genuine Christians.

4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

The key is verse 6. If there was no genuine repentance to begin with, how can they be renewed again to something they never did or experienced. Secondly, if their first repentance was not a genuine repentance, then why would we want to renew them again to a fake or superficial repentance again? Wouldn’t we want them to genuinely repent?

The other key verse is verse 4. They are described as “partakers of the Holy Spirit.” In the Bible, to partake is not merely an association. Partake means more than just a mere association, it means to have an actual share in or potion of something. For example:

1 Corinthians 10:17

17Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.

We do not “associate” with the bread. We **receive a portion **of the bread to eat.

Hebrews 12:8

8But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

Does this mean that we are merely “associated” with the Lord’s discipline or do we actually experience it?

So if the person has been made a partaker of the Holy Spirit, they have received their “share” of the Holy Spirit. In other words, they have the Holy Spirit. Only genuine Christians can be partakers of the Holy Spirit. Now add to this the fact that they have repented and we see that the profile of the people referred to in this passage is that of genuine Christians.

Now some may point to verses 4 and 5 where we find the word “tasted.” They will argue that this means that the people in this passage have not fully experienced what a genuine Christian experienced. They have only received a taste, a kind if appetizer. But they have not received the main course. However, “taste” in the Bible does not necessarily mean a superficial or partial experience. Let’s take a look at Hebrews 2:9

**…because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death **for everyone.

Does this mean that Jesus did not fully experience death? That He only had a mere superficial experience? So “taste” does not necessarily mean that the people referred to in this passage have not a genuinely Christian experience.

Finally, Hebrews 6 must be read in conjunction with Hebrews 10:29, since both passages refer to the same group of people:

29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

How can a person who has repented (Heb. 6:6), been made a “partaker of the Holy Spirit” and be “sanctified by the blood of Christ”, not be a genuine Christian? Indeed, the word “sanctified” has been used in the Bible to mean set apart for a specific holy purpose, but the Bible never uses sanctified by the blood of Christ if it is not referring to Christians.

God Bless,
Michael

Hebrews 6 speaks against reverts, Mike.