Hebrews 12:23 Proof of Purgatory?

[Lenten_ashes]

do you feel one could mess up his time in purgatory like we do here?

Greetings!

I do not now the details on purgatory. I know we are stubborn, stiff necked beings and this probably carries over with us at the hour of our death. I see no reason why it wouldn’t?

I Cor 3:15 speaks to me . This is what thsee verses say to me.

Something we should understand about purgatory is the biblical concept that there can be consequences for sin even AFTER one is forgiven.:

2 Samuel 12:13-14New Living Translation (NLT)

David Confesses His Guilt
13 Then David confessed to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”

Nathan replied, “Yes, but the Lord has forgiven you, and you won’t die for this sin. 14 Nevertheless, because you have shown utter contempt for the word of the Lord[a] by doing this, your child will die.”

David fasted and begged God for the life of his Son, but it mattered not. Sin has horrible consequences in the eyes of a Holy and unchanging God.

In regards to your explanation, it falls short for me because Paul describes a place or state of being where you suffer loss yet are still saved. Where is this place or state of being? Hell? Cant be, you suffer loss in hell but you don’t get out. Heaven? Cant be that either as heaven is eternal bliss.

Acts 9: 4 does not speak to me about the communion of saints. Of course I believe in the communion of saints. All who have departed this life have experienced the same plan of salvation as those alive are and those unborn will. That is if they accept His offer as individuals.

How many bodies does Jesus have, Wannano?

My comments about someone being in purgatory for a long time was spurred on by the comments I had read on another thread concerning purgatory. I gathered that we need our relatives and friends to get our time there shortened and the poor people with no one to help them out have to stay there longer. That makes no sense to me for if my time there is due to the cleansing needed to make me fit for heaven I would think that when I am cleansed I would be sent over when it is accomplished not later because no one was caring and not early because someone was.

If the stay is shortened it’s still by the grace and mercy of God, though. Nothing is impossible for God.

Did you know C.S. Lewis, a protestant and great theological mind believed in purgatory as well?

"Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age, the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?

I believe in Purgatory."

angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/purgatorycslewis.htm

…“I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering.”

I point this out, not so people can appeal to C.S. Lewis, we have our own minds and can make our own judgments… but so they understand that one of the greatest protestant theological minds, who read the same bible as they do, has drawn a similar conclusion as the Catholic Church has. Some seem to think the Church just dreamed this up which could not be further from the truth. Jews have always prayed for the dead and we see proof of that in 2 Macc, which was removed from your bible, unfortunately.

2 Maccabees 12:38-46Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

38 So Judas having gathered together his army, came into the city Odollam: and when the seventh day came, they purified themselves according to the custom, and kept the sabbath in the place.
39 And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers.
40 And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain.
41 Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.
42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.
43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,
44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.
46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

And BTW, Jesus understands his audience in Matthew 12:32:

Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world** or in the world to come**.

He adds…“Or in the world to come” because He is talking to a bunch of 1st century Jews who pray for the dead for the expiation of sins.

I do understand the objection to the doctrine by non-Catholics, but the biblical and common sense concept is there and the Church has spoken on it, encouraging us to not assume their whereabouts, just pray for the departed just as we pray for those still here.

Pax

 

[Reuben_J]

My comments about someone being in purgatory for a long time was spurred on by the comments I had read on another thread concerning purgatory. I gathered that we need our relatives and friends to get our time there shortened and the poor people with no one to help them out have to stay there longer. That makes no sense to me for if my time there is due to the cleansing needed to make me fit for heaven I would think that when I am cleansed I would be sent over when it is accomplished not later because no one was caring and not early because someone was.

l

I am not in the discussion but I would like to throw in another perspective from a Catholic that does not have any Protestant background. IOW, we are poor at apologetic but perhaps you would appreciate the simplicity.

I would begin with a preface by saying that all your questions and comments about purgatory is from someone who does not and does not want to believe in purgatory. I hope I am right but if not, you can say that no, you would believe in purgatory, if it really exist.

OTOH, though I am required to believe in it, I have tried extensively examined why Protestants who don’t, are right about its non-existence. In my honest self examination, I find the the basis for its existence is much stronger than otherwise, and therefore Protestants are wrong on this one.

So that is the background on my answer to this post.

Praying for the dead is not only about getting them out of purgatory quicker though it is good to get out quicker, right?

It is about love. About loving each other. When we pray, that’s showing great love.

It is about family. We are one family. We care and we love each other. People who do, usually demonstrate it in prayers.

It is also about ourselves. When we pray for others, we are actually praying for ourselves, in the sense that the good we do to others, God will reward it. Do Protestants agree to that or not? I am not sure though, but that seem to be the principle in prayers.

Our human natural need is to get back to God our Creator. It makes sense if we can hasten our stay in purgatory then. And God listens to the prayers of His faithful. Are we twisting His hand to release those in purgatory before their time? Not necessary. It is still His decision. We know however, that persistence in prayer indeed touch the heart of God. Jesus told about many parables to that effect.

What about those who do not have anybody praying for them? Valid question. Yes, they will have to spend longer time. But they are not completely abandoned; it is common practice that Catholics do intercede for those in purgatory, whether in personal prayers or in the mass.

But since you said, bottom line, you would expect to get out once the purification is done, to Catholics the fact that they can pray for their loved ones, has become an encouragement for more Catholics to pray and for them to make effort for their children and relatives to believe, so that when they die, there will be somebody who specifically praying for them.

I often saw stark demonstration of this in funerals and memorial prayers services. To us we thought it is a common thing for people to die but from my experience, people who lost their loved ones through death do experience real loss and real grieve, no matter how impersonal we are in our society today.

They do like to pray for the deceased and they like it when we prayed for them, even among the Protestants. I notice grieve is universal that transcends belief, and if prayers are for the well-being of the dead, there is usually no objection for them to be done.

Of course that has nothing to do with whether purgatory exists or not, but it does demonstrate that people actually care. They care, maybe you personally don’t, but they care for the well-being of the dead. We would like it if the stay in purgatory can be hastened.

Just some thought.

 

[Wannano]

Greetings!

I do not now the details on purgatory. I know we are stubborn, stiff necked beings and this probably carries over with us at the hour of our death. I see no reason why it wouldn’t?

ANSWER : it must be easier then within the realm of purgatory to overcome our faults than it was on earth or we would never get out.

Something we should understand about purgatory is the biblical concept that there can be consequences for sin even AFTER one is forgiven

David fasted and begged God for the life of his Son, but it mattered not. Sin has horrible consequences in the eyes of a Holy and unchanging God.

ANSWER: sin has horrible consequences and we don’t have to wait for purgatory , just like David we experience the consequences in this earthly life.

In regards to your explanation, it falls short for me because Paul describes a place or state of being where you suffer loss yet are still saved. Where is this place or state of being? Hell? Cant be, you suffer loss in hell but you don’t get out. Heaven? Cant be that either as heaven is eternal bliss.

ANSWER: if not heaven then what or where are the rewards for the person whose works withstand the test of fire? Seems like heaven is eternal bliss for sure maybe with different levels of reward?

How many bodies does Jesus have, Wannano?
AnSwer: are you sure Acts 9:4 is the right passage? BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

If the stay is shortened it’s still by the grace and mercy of God, though. Nothing is impossible for God.

Did you know C.S. Lewis, a protestant and great theological mind believed in purgatory as well?

I point this out, not so people can appeal to C.S. Lewis, we have our own minds and can make our own judgments… but so they understand that one of the greatest protestant theological minds, who read the same bible as they do, has drawn a similar conclusion as the Catholic Church has. Some seem to think the Church just dreamed this up which could not be further from the truth. Jews have always prayed for the dead and we see proof of that in 2 Macc, which was removed from your bible, unfortunately.

ANSWER: what kept C.S. Lewis from being Catholic?

I do understand the objection to the doctrine by non-Catholics, but the biblical and common sense concept is there and the Church has spoken on it, encouraging us to not assume their whereabouts, just pray for the departed just as we pray for those still here.

ANSWER: when you are praying to help someone out of purgatory how do you know when they get out and you should stop? I am asking this seriously, not joking.
Pax

 

[Wannano]

l

I am not in the discussion but I would like to throw in another perspective from a Catholic that does not have any Protestant background. IOW, we are poor at apologetic but perhaps you would appreciate the simplicity.

I would begin with a preface by saying that all your questions and comments about purgatory is from someone who does not and does not want to believe in purgatory. I hope I am right but if not, you can say that no, you would believe in purgatory, if it really exist.

OTOH, though I am required to believe in it, I have tried extensively examined why Protestants who don’t, are right about its non-existence. In my honest self examination, I find the the basis for its existence is much stronger than otherwise, and therefore Protestants are wrong on this one.

So that is the background on my answer to this post.

Praying for the dead is not only about getting them out of purgatory quicker though it is good to get out quicker, right?

It is about love. About loving each other. When we pray, that’s showing great love.

It is about family. We are one family. We care and we love each other. People who do, usually demonstrate it in prayers.

It is also about ourselves. When we pray for others, we are actually praying for ourselves, in the sense that the good we do to others, God will reward it. Do Protestants agree to that or not? I am not sure though, but that seem to be the principle in prayers.

Our human natural need is to get back to God our Creator. It makes sense if we can hasten our stay in purgatory then. And God listens to the prayers of His faithful. Are we twisting His hand to release those in purgatory before their time? Not necessary. It is still His decision. We know however, that persistence in prayer indeed touch the heart of God. Jesus told about many parables to that effect.

What about those who do not have anybody praying for them? Valid question. Yes, they will have to spend longer time. But they are not completely abandoned; it is common practice that Catholics do intercede for those in purgatory, whether in personal prayers or in the mass.

But since you said, bottom line, you would expect to get out once the purification is done, to Catholics the fact that they can pray for their loved ones, has become an encouragement for more Catholics to pray and for them to make effort for their children and relatives to believe, so that when they die, there will be somebody who specifically praying for them.

I often saw stark demonstration of this in funerals and memorial prayers services. To us we thought it is a common thing for people to die but from my experience, people who lost their loved ones through death do experience real loss and real grieve, no matter how impersonal we are in our society today.

They do like to pray for the deceased and they like it when we prayed for them, even among the Protestants. I notice grieve is universal that transcends belief, and if prayers are for the well-being of the dead, there is usually no objection for them to be done.

Of course that has nothing to do with whether purgatory exists or not, but it does demonstrate that people actually care. They care, maybe you personally don’t, but they care for the well-being of the dead. We would like it if the stay in purgatory can be hastened.

Just some thought.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Greetings, Wannano

ANSWER : it must be easier then within the realm of purgatory to overcome our faults than it was on earth or we would never get out.

ANSWER: sin has horrible consequences and we don’t have to wait for purgatory , just like David we experience the consequences in this earthly life.

Right, but what if you take your last breath here and are still attached to all kinds of filthy sins? Are you presentable to God in that state? Do you take a shower before you go to Church? Do you put on clean clothes?

ANSWER: if not heaven then what or where are the rewards for the person whose works withstand the test of fire? Seems like heaven is eternal bliss for sure maybe with different levels of reward?

It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward

Through the fire first, then receive the reward(HEAVEN). Welcome to the doctrine of purgatory my friend

AnSwer: are you sure Acts 9:4 is the right passage? BIBLEDRB][/bibledrb]

Yes, how many bodies does Jesus have and what body part is Jesus, Himself?

ANSWER: what kept C.S. Lewis from being Catholic?

He didn’t like the idea of making it official doctrine and did not like the idea of indulgences. Surprised he did not become Orthodox, tbh.

ANSWER: when you are praying to help someone out of purgatory how do you know when they get out and you should stop? I am asking this seriously, not joking.
Pax

If they are canonized you can cease praying for them.

Personally, if I receive private revelation from the Lord, I’ll stop praying for them.

 

[Wannano]

l

I am not in the discussion but I would like to throw in another perspective from a Catholic that does not have any Protestant background. IOW, we are poor at apologetic but perhaps you would appreciate the simplicity.

I would begin with a preface by saying that all your questions and comments about purgatory is from someone who does not and does not want to believe in purgatory. I hope I am right but if not, you can say that no, you would believe in purgatory, if it really exist.

OTOH, though I am required to believe in it, I have tried extensively examined why Protestants who don’t, are right about its non-existence. In my honest self examination, I find the the basis for its existence is much stronger than otherwise, and therefore Protestants are wrong on this one.

So that is the background on my answer to this post.

Praying for the dead is not only about getting them out of purgatory quicker though it is good to get out quicker, right?

It is about love. About loving each other. When we pray, that’s showing great love.

It is about family. We are one family. We care and we love each other. People who do, usually demonstrate it in prayers.

It is also about ourselves. When we pray for others, we are actually praying for ourselves, in the sense that the good we do to others, God will reward it. Do Protestants agree to that or not? I am not sure though, but that seem to be the principle in prayers.

Our human natural need is to get back to God our Creator. It makes sense if we can hasten our stay in purgatory then. And God listens to the prayers of His faithful. Are we twisting His hand to release those in purgatory before their time? Not necessary. It is still His decision. We know however, that persistence in prayer indeed touch the heart of God. Jesus told about many parables to that effect.

What about those who do not have anybody praying for them? Valid question. Yes, they will have to spend longer time. But they are not completely abandoned; it is common practice that Catholics do intercede for those in purgatory, whether in personal prayers or in the mass.

But since you said, bottom line, you would expect to get out once the purification is done, to Catholics the fact that they can pray for their loved ones, has become an encouragement for more Catholics to pray and for them to make effort for their children and relatives to believe, so that when they die, there will be somebody who specifically praying for them.

I often saw stark demonstration of this in funerals and memorial prayers services. To us we thought it is a common thing for people to die but from my experience, people who lost their loved ones through death do experience real loss and real grieve, no matter how impersonal we are in our society today.

They do like to pray for the deceased and they like it when we prayed for them, even among the Protestants. I notice grieve is universal that transcends belief, and if prayers are for the well-being of the dead, there is usually no objection for them to be done.

Of course that has nothing to do with whether purgatory exists or not, but it does demonstrate that people actually care. They care, maybe you personally don’t, but they care for the well-being of the dead. We would like it if the stay in purgatory can be hastened.

Just some thought.

I am coming from a background of never being taught that there is a place of purgatory. To say I am closed minded and don’t want to believe there is a purgatory is something I can’t take ownership of. If it exists and I don’t now believe it does I certainly will have a change of mind when I get there! So will you if you so strongly believe you will have a second chance to get ready for heaven and when you get there find out that it does not exist!

I am not sure our prayers will avail much if the reason we pray is to earn some brownie points or personal reward from God for praying. God knows the sincerity of our hearts when we pray.

I don’t know how you arrive at the conclusion that I don’t care about those who are grieving. I hope that is not what you are actually saying. We care for the well being of the souls who have departed. That is why at Protestant funerals we commit the body to the earth and the soul to a loving God who gave it. We believe that the price for our sins was paid at Calvary and that while that certainly does not give licence to sin while alive when we die any unintentional stain we take with us is more than covered by the grace God has bestowed on us. We believe Jesus is there even now interceding for us.

 

[Wannano]

Greetings, Wannano

Right, but what if you take your last breath here and are still attached to all kinds of filthy sins? Are you presentable to God in that state? Do you take a shower before you go to Church? Do you put on clean clothes?

Through the fire first, then receive the reward(HEAVEN). Welcome to the doctrine of purgatory my friend

Yes, how many bodies does Jesus have and what body part is Jesus, Himself?

He didn’t like the idea of making it official doctrine and did not like the idea of indulgences. Surprised he did not become Orthodox, tbh.

If they are canonized you can cease praying for them.

Personally, if I receive private revelation from the Lord, I’ll stop praying for them.

Honestly I must really be dense. Acts 9:4 ? You are going to have to explain how your questions relate?

Now believe it or not, I must get ready to go to a funeral!

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Honestly I must really be dense. Acts 9:4 ? You are going to have to explain how your questions relate?

Now believe it or not, I must get ready to go to a funeral!

Ironic you are headed to a funeral during this sort of discussion. I’m very sorry for your loss.

Acts 9:4New International Version (NIV)

4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

Who was Saul actually persecuting, Wannano?

 

[Wannano]

Ironic you are headed to a funeral during this sort of discussion. I’m very sorry for your loss.

Who was Saul actually persecuting, Wannano?

Thanks, why Jesus of course. What does that have to do with body parts?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Thanks, why Jesus of course. What does that have to do with body parts?

Jesus had already ascended. ^^^^:angel1:^^^^^

Saul was persecuting CHRISTIANS (Galatians 1:13-15) , yet Jesus says why are you persecuting ME.

If you persecute Christians, you persecute Jesus. ACTS 9:4 means you can’t separate the body of Christ and you can’t separate Jesus from the Church, all though many have tried and still continue to do so.

You believe in the communion of saints? Then how many bodies are in the communion of saints and what body part does Jesus represent?

 

[Wannano]

Jesus had already ascended. ^^^^:angel1:^^^^^

Saul was persecuting CHRISTIANS (Galatians 1:13-15) , yet Jesus says why are you persecuting ME.

If you persecute Christians, you persecute Jesus. ACTS 9:4 means you can’t separate the body of Christ and you can’t separate Jesus from the Church, all though many have tried and still continue to do so.

You believe in the communion of saints? Then how many bodies are in the communion of saints and what body part does Jesus represent?

 

[Reuben_J]

I am coming from a background of never being taught that there is a place of purgatory. To say I am closed minded and don’t want to believe there is a purgatory is something I can’t take ownership of. If it exists and I don’t now believe it does I certainly will have a change of mind when I get there! So will you if you so strongly believe you will have a second chance to get ready for heaven and when you get there find out that it does not exist!

Too late though! You just have to stay longer. Just kidding you. But that’s it. It’s about time spent in purgatory.

Anyway, thanks for your response.

The doctrine of purgatory is not about second chance. Thought of correcting you there. It is about purification before one can enter heaven.

I am not sure our prayers will avail much if the reason we pray is to earn some brownie points or personal reward from God for praying. God knows the sincerity of our hearts when we pray.

So you do not believe in rewards from praying. I will take note of that.

We do, at least I do. I believe that when we pray for people, we demonstrate our love for them. If we pray for their goodness, whether body or soul, we are just like the Good Samaritan, doing good for those who are in needs. Helping people should not just be confined to physical help only but the spiritual side of it is equally important.

Thus praying for others actually is doing well to the neighbors. I am sure that kind of thing pleases God and when God is please with us, grace would flow which can work in many ways. Maybe making us better Christians, better at praying, all consequences of which can lead to eternal life, helping us to walk the journey on earth.

If I obtain grace by praying which allows me wanting to pray more, I would think it is a reward for my effort in praying.

I do acknowledge our differences in this though and I will keep that in mind knowing that you do not expect any reward for praying.

I don’t know how you arrive at the conclusion that I don’t care about those who are grieving. I hope that is not what you are actually saying. We care for the well being of the souls who have departed. That is why at Protestant funerals we commit the body to the earth and the soul to a loving God who gave it. We believe that the price for our sins was paid at Calvary and that while that certainly does not give licence to sin while alive when we die any unintentional stain we take with us is more than covered by the grace God has bestowed on us. We believe Jesus is there even now interceding for us.

Yes, that was not what I was saying though it may sound like that.

The context was in response to your statement to the effect that our prayer would not change the deceased’s time in purgatory or rather his fate and therefore praying for him is not efficacious.

If we know that praying for the deceased can enhance his afterlife journey, would we not pray for him? And if we do not pray for him would it not be saying that we do not care? That is the context. You don’t pray to the deceased because you believe it will not change anything for him.

I apologize nevertheless if I sounded like accusing; I was never good at communicating. I tried to be objective but it is my fault if you take it personally.

 

[Wannano]

Too late though! You just have to stay longer. Just kidding you. But that’s it. It’s about time spent in purgatory.

Anyway, thanks for your response.

The doctrine of purgatory is not about second chance. Thought of correcting you there. It is about purification before one can enter heaven.

So you do not believe in rewards from praying. I will take note of that.

We do, at least I do. I believe that when we pray for people, we demonstrate our love for them. If we pray for their goodness, whether body or soul, we are just like the Good Samaritan, doing good for those who are in needs. Helping people should not just be confined to physical help only but the spiritual side of it is equally important.

Thus praying for others actually is doing well to the neighbors. I am sure that kind of thing pleases God and when God is please with us, grace would flow which can work in many ways. Maybe making us better Christians, better at praying, all consequences of which can lead to eternal life, helping us to walk the journey on earth.

If I obtain grace by praying which allows me wanting to pray more, I would think it is a reward for my effort in praying.

I do acknowledge our differences in this though and I will keep that in mind knowing that you do not expect any reward for praying.

Yes, that was not what I was saying though it may sound like that.

The context was in response to your statement to the effect that our prayer would not change the deceased’s time in purgatory or rather his fate and therefore praying for him is not efficacious.

If we know that praying for the deceased can enhance his afterlife journey, would we not pray for him? And if we do not pray for him would it not be saying that we do not care? That is the context. You don’t pray to the deceased because you believe it will not change anything for him.

I apologize nevertheless if I sounded like accusing; I was never good at communicating. I tried to be objective but it is my fault if you take it personally.

Thank you for your kind response…

I have to get it through my head that it is not a second chance. If I refuse to give up my pet sin here on earth then isn’t depending on purgatory going for a second chance?

Hey Reuben, I did not say there are no rewards from prayer, I said if one is doing it for the reward (selfish gain somehow) then it seems vain. Actually I wish I could read what I wrote about this when I am typing this reply!

My mother has gone to her reward, if I knew I could enhance her afterlife experience by praying for her of course I would be uncaring not to do that. However I do not believe for one moment that she is not enjoying her experience in heaven to the fullest.

Thanks.

 

[jlhargus]

That’s a verse I’ve shared with my beloved protestant loved ones. Nobody seems to have a decent rebuttal for it. Spirits being made perfect…not flesh and blood, spirits. Coincides with 1 Cor 3:15

The more I dig into the scriptures the more i love and appreciate the Catholic Church…

Amen, the more you dig the better you understand also.

 

[ThundersnowIV]

It supports it but doesn’t prove it.

“made perfect” can easily be understood (and correctly) to modify “just men”, not “spirits.” In which case, a perfectly reasonable objection would be that these are the spirits of the (just men made perfect), and that they were made perfect when they were justified, i.e. when they were still alive, and that they are part of the cloud of witnesses precisely because they had been made perfect when they were still on earth.

That would be a perfectly reasonable Evangelical answer.

 

[po18guy]

Proof? Sadly, no. “This is My Body” is not proof for millions. “You are Peter, and on this rock I found My Church” is not proof for millions.

Evidence? Yes! For those who will see it. However, look at the first and last verses in the chapter, to place this in context:

Hebrews 12 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

12 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:…

29 For our God is a consuming fire.

The Saints, both in the purgative process, as well as those enjoying the Beatific Vision, and the refiner’s consuming fire of our God. A certain 16th century German man rejected the possibility of any need for cleansing, having an intense, fear-driven, consuming and irresistible need to feel permanently justified. Our faith will cover us like snow covers dung heaps he said, in direct contradiction of Revelation 21:27. He convinced others and it has been a struggle against rampant division ever since.

 

[DaveBj]

It supports it but doesn’t prove it.

**“made perfect” can easily be understood (and correctly) to modify “just men”, not “spirits.” **In which case, a perfectly reasonable objection would be that these are the spirits of the (just men made perfect), and that they were made perfect when they were justified, i.e. when they were still alive, and that they are part of the cloud of witnesses precisely because they had been made perfect when they were still on earth.

That would be a perfectly reasonable Evangelical answer.

I missed this the first time thru, but the bolded is incorrect. “Made perfect” is a participle and must agree with in gender, case, number, with the word that it modifies. “Spirits” is neuter dative plural. “Just men” is masculine genitive plural, and so is “made perfect.” Therefore, the writer was referring to the just men, not their spirits, as being made perfect.

 

[Michael68]

I missed this the first time thru, but the bolded is incorrect. “Made perfect” is a participle and must agree with in gender, case, number, with the word that it modifies. “Spirits” is neuter dative plural. “Just men” is masculine genitive plural, and so is “made perfect.” Therefore, the writer was referring to the just men, not their spirits, as being made perfect.

Ok, so where are just men made perfect?

 

[DaveBj]

Ok, so where are just men made perfect?

Umm, Purgatory?

And, oops! I just noticed that Porthos himself dealt with the grammatical issue back in post #8. Uff-da on me!

 

[porthos11]

I missed this the first time thru, but the bolded is incorrect. “Made perfect” is a participle and must agree with in gender, case, number, with the word that it modifies. “Spirits” is neuter dative plural. “Just men” is masculine genitive plural, and so is “made perfect.” Therefore, the writer was referring to the just men, not their spirits, as being made perfect.

Uhm, sure. Isn’t that what I said?

“made perfect” modifies “just men” not “spirits”, on the basis of exactly what you just said.