Hebrews 6:4-6 exposed

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Hebrews 5

11We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Hebrews 6

1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[d] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[e]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

Paul is speaking to immature Jewish Christians, in 6:4-6 he is speaking of a “hypothetical” case.

google.com/custom?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=ISO-8859-1&safe=active&client=pub-8168503353085287&cof=FORID:1%3BGL:1%3BBGC:FFFFFF%3BT:%23000000%3BLC:%230000ff%3BVLC:%23663399%3BALC:%230000ff%3BGALT:%23008000%3BGFNT:%230000ff%3BGIMP:%230000ff%3BDIV:%23336699%3BLBGC:336699%3BAH:center%3B&domains=NewAdvent.org&q=Hebrews+hypothetical+&spell=1
 
I notice that allischalmers since starting the thread has not answered the comments by the various posters. Is he/she simply going to cut and paste from other sites without getting involved in any discussion??
 
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thistle:
I notice that allischalmers since starting the thread has not answered the comments by the various posters. Is he/she simply going to cut and paste from other sites without getting involved in any discussion??
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Yeah. I noticed the same thing in his last thread about the Last Supper. I’m stumped.
 
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Eden:
Can you post the link to the website from which you quoted the above?
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I think someone has been paraphrasing Arthur Pink’s exposition of Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 12 :), both of which have something to say about what appears to be apostasy :​

pbministries.org/books/pink/Hebrews/hebrews_024.htm

pbministries.org/books/pink/Hebrews/hebrews_096.htm
  • to be exact, someone has been putting together sentences from these pages 🙂
When* I* post, I write my own ideas - I don’t copy great chunks of text from websites & post them without acknowledgement. ##
 
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Eden:
That is not the only verse in the Bible that supports the Catholic teaching on Salvation, allischalmers. If you want to expose that one as being misinterpreted, what about all of these?

Acts 7:51 - you stiff-necked people, you always resist the Holy Spirit. We, by our own freewill, can resist God and His grace, and turn away from Him.

Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.

1 Cor. 9:24-27 – Paul says that all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize. Paul recognizes that if he doesn’t train himself properly in perseverance, he too can become “disqualified.” The word “disqualified” comes from the Greek word “adokimos” which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. When “adokimos” is used in the Scriptures, it always refers to those who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards. See, for example, Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7. This proves that Saint Paul thought he could lose his salvation. No one would reasonably argue that Paul wasn’t “saved” when he wrote the Scriptures. So if Saint Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why do many Protestants think that they cannot lose theirs?

1 Cor. 9:24 – Paul says that only one wins the “prize” (brabeion). To further prove that the race Paul is writing about refers to our journey to heaven, “brabeion” always has a soteriological implication. See, for example, Phil. 3:14 where “prize” refers to the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (which is heaven).

1 Cor. 9:25 – Paul writes about achieving the “imperishable” (aphthartos) wreath. Again, to further prove Paul is writing about salvation, “aphthartos” always refers to the eternal. See, for example, 1 Cor. 15:51 (the only other place in NT Scripture where “aphthartos” appears relative to humans) where Paul says the dead will be raised “imperishable.” This refers to the resurrection of our salvation. See also 1 Tim. 1:17 where the King of ages is called “immortal” (imperishable).

Rom. 13:11 – for salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. If we already have salvation, then how can we only be nearer to it?

1 Cor. 4:4 - Paul says he is not aware of anything against himself, but he is still not acquitted. Paul is not presumptuous about his salvation. Only the Lord is our Judge.

1 Cor. 6:9-11 - we can be washed, sanctified, and justified, yet Paul still warns us that we can be deceived and become unrighteous.

1 Cor. 10:6-13 – the passage is about how the Israelites, once justified before God, fell away from God. Therefore, let anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall (v.12). You can be standing in God’s grace, and then fall away. But God will always provide enough grace to overcome the temptation (v.13). 1 Cor. 15:1-2 - we can be believers (predestined to grace) but believe in vain. Scripture refutes the novel Protestant theory “once saved, always saved.”

2 Cor. 6:1 - we can receive the grace of God (predestined to grace) in vain. We can choose not to cooperate with His grace. 2 Cor. 11:2-3 – Paul writes, “I betrothed you to Christ, but I am afraid that your thoughts will be led astray from a devotion to Christ.” The Corinthians already had a sincere devotion to Christ, for Paul wrote to them earlier in the letter, “you stand firm in your faith.” (2 Cor. 1:24). They are already “saved.” But Paul warns them that they can fall away just like Eve fell away (and, remember, Eve was created without sin!) This is another verse that is devastating to the belief of “once saved, always saved.”
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If allis can’t quote the Bible (as Dan-Man seems to be hinting) I’m not sure you can either. In fact, Dan’s suggestion leads to a complete dismissal of the Bible.​

 
Mickey said:
Regarding Hebrews 6:4-6 (an Orthodox explanation)

Of course, Saint Paul is writing to the Hebrews, and herein he refers to those who have apostasized – that is, to those who rejected Christ and His saving power after their Baptism.
Concerning verse 4, we find reference to the Sacraments of Initiation: Baptism “once enlightened”], Chrismation “partakers of the Holy Spirit”], and the Eucharist “tasted the heavenly gift”]. Verse 5 —“Tasted the good word of God” refers to the message of the Gospel and the true doctrine of God’s People, the Church. In verse 6 we find Saint Paul stating that those to whom he is writing – remember, they are Jews – who revert to Judaism [not uncommon in apostolic times] crucify Christ once again, becoming like those who, in crucifying Christ on the Cross denied His divinity and His saving power. Such baptized individuals put themselves in a position of needing to be baptized again, although this is not possible as “once enlightened” refers to the fact that Baptism is experienced once and only once. [This is reflected in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed: “I believe in one Baptism for the remission of sins.”

To conclude, it is impossible to clearly understand the meaning of this passage from Hebrews apart from understanding the precise audience to which Saint Paul was directing his words: those Jews [but surely not all Jews] who had begun their spiritual journeys through Baptism, yet who then rejected Christ and His power. If one has not done this then these verses would not directly apply. Now, Orthodox Christianity does hold that, after one has been “born again” through Baptism, Christmation and the Eucharist, one can surely fall away or “miss the mark” of his or her calling to live as Christ lived. One can surely “de-activate,” so to speak, the grace imparted in these Sacraments; at the same time, God remains present in such persons, even if they do not recognize or acknowledge it. [It’s not as if God says, “Okay, that’s it!! You keep sinning, and you don’t seem to care about it, so I’m leaving and I’ll make sure I never return.”] God is everywhere, filling all things – including the lives of those who have failed to live in accordance with His precepts and even in those who are blatantly evil. As Christ Himself says, God allows the sun to shine and the rain to fall on the good and evil alike, and all are God’s children, His creation, worthy of being saved, even if they have yet to “work out [their] own salvation.”

Father John Matusiak (Orthodox priest)
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But: quoting non-Catholics torpedoes Dan-Man’s attempt to save the Bible from Protestant non-Catholics for RC use - because it adds up to saying that Orthodox deniers of Rome’s authority can be trusted with the Bible, but Protestant deniers of Rome’s authority, can’t be. And no reason for this distinction is given.​

So the argument implied seems to be this: all Protestant use of the Bible is worthless, but any use of the Bible by a Church which allows the use of tradition, is allowable - even when different Churches with different traditions and dogmas use it, and come up with different answers to the same questions. Even though Protestants have their own tradition too; as much so, as Orthodox or Romans. “But they disagree on all sort of things among themselves”. True - so do Orthodox; so do Romans; the three sets of disagreements just happen not to occupy identical positions in the self-understanding of the three Christianities in question, so that what looks like deadly confusion among Protestants in Roman eyes, is perceived as no such thing in Protestantism.

How is it any more Catholic to deny the universal jurisdiction of the Pope (say) on Orthodox grounds, than to deny it on Protestant grounds ? To be consistent, Dan ought to be turning his fire upon Orthodox ideas, no less than upon Protestant ideas. From a Roman perspective, both are heretical, schismatic, and damnable, if in different degrees and ways: just as papal infallibility is a soul-destroying heresy whether one is Presbyterian, or Orthodox.

So it’s illogical and inconsistent for Romans (whom many Orthodox seem to think are governed by the Antichrist) to invoke the aid of those Orthodox heretics who deny the universal jurisdiction of the Pope against those whom both regard as grievously in error, who themselves return the compliment by regarding Rome, Constantinople, and Moscow as being in error.

What makes an Orthodox priest any less a denier of all sort of Roman dogmas than a Presbyterian or Baptist preacher ? Nothing. Only the errors differ; the bein in error does not.

In the ever-memorable words of Archbishop Zoghby, “We are all schismatics” - even those of us who are not Protestant. ##
 
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Eden:
Good work infiltrating the OSAS secret theological cache, Gottle!

http://bestsmileys.com/army/5.gifhttp://bestsmileys.com/army/4.gif

(Hebrews 6:4-6 exposed - exposed indeed.)
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TY 😉 - all one needs to do, is paste a longish phrase from the passage one wants to identify, into one’s browser: preferably the sort of phrase that is likely to be relatively rare.​

Knowing the Bible also helps 🙂

FWIW, Hebrews 6.4-6 is no objection to the Calvinist form of OSAS: it would fit comfily with Calvin’s understanding of common grace, which even the non-elect receive. And they receive it, and they receive all sorts of “heavenly gifts” - but not election or perseverance. Maybe that is why they are able to apostatise - because, for them, “the everlasting arms” are not “underneath”, as they are for the elect.

Just an idea ##
 
Gottle of Geer said:
## TY 😉 - all one needs to do, is paste a longish phrase from the passage one wants to identify, into one’s browser: preferably the sort of phrase that is likely to be relatively rare.

Knowing the Bible also helps 🙂 ##
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👍
 
Good Morning
before I continue with" Hebrews 2;2-6 exposed" I would like you to know that I have a desire to reach into my little bag of over forty years of Bible study notes and write an essay for all the verses that EDEN posted, However this is getting all too time comsuming and I have other things God would like to do before I meet my Lord Jesus Christ face to face and hear those wonderful words "well done my good and faithful servant. Now to Hebrews–
We must make sure of whom the Holy Spirit is speaking in our passage from Hebrews 6. Is it speaking of born again souls? or of unregenerate souls? What is meant by the statement "if they fall away"? What is meant by the assertion that "it is impossible to renew them again to repentance" ?
Not one of the five expressions used in Hebrews 2;4-6 is equivatent to the partaking of the Devine life; nor are all of them together the equivalent of partaking, as Peter says, “of the divine nature.” A sinner may be moved in any one or in ALL of the five ways pointed out here, and yet remain an unbeliever. In the physical world, where there is life, there is growth. the growth may be slow, but life does produce, and when it ceases to produce it is deteriorating-- and that is death. If there is no growth, there is no life. the same is true in the spiritual realm. Jesus said that some bring forth thirty, some sixty, some a hundredfold–but He did not say “Some bring forth no fruit at all.”
We need to pay close attention to the opening words of verse 4 "For it is impossible…" These words take me back to an early study of mine where we learned that there were some who professed to be Christians although thay still clung to the Levitical system of ordinances and typology. These were professed believers who still held to the old economy of the law, still trusting in the Old testament sacrifices and Mosaic institutions, which were only shadows and type. They saw Jesus as a great teacher and a great healer–but they would not accept His death, burial, and resurrection, “according to the Scriptures.”

this has to be all for today but I fear this is going to be a long one, maybe 5000 words, Not writing on Sunday!

forever Baptist
allischalmers
 
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allischalmers:
Good Morning
before I continue with" Hebrews 2;2-6 exposed" I would like you to know that I have a desire to reach into my little bag of over forty years of Bible study notes and write an essay for all the verses that EDEN posted, However this is getting all too time comsuming and I have other things God would like to do before I meet my Lord Jesus Christ face to face and hear those wonderful words "well done my good and faithful servant. Now to Hebrews–
We must make sure of whom the Holy Spirit is speaking in our passage from Hebrews 6. Is it speaking of born again souls? or of unregenerate souls? What is meant by the statement "if they fall away"? What is meant by the assertion that "it is impossible to renew them again to repentance" ?
Not one of the five expressions used in Hebrews 2;4-6 is equivatent to the partaking of the Devine life; nor are all of them together the equivalent of partaking, as Peter says, “of the divine nature.” A sinner may be moved in any one or in ALL of the five ways pointed out here, and yet remain an unbeliever. In the physical world, where there is life, there is growth. the growth may be slow, but life does produce, and when it ceases to produce it is deteriorating-- and that is death. If there is no growth, there is no life. the same is true in the spiritual realm. Jesus said that some bring forth thirty, some sixty, some a hundredfold–but He did not say “Some bring forth no fruit at all.”
We need to pay close attention to the opening words of verse 4 "For it is impossible…" These words take me back to an early study of mine where we learned that there were some who professed to be Christians although thay still clung to the Levitical system of ordinances and typology. These were professed believers who still held to the old economy of the law, still trusting in the Old testament sacrifices and Mosaic institutions, which were only shadows and type. They saw Jesus as a great teacher and a great healer–but they would not accept His death, burial, and resurrection, “according to the Scriptures.”

this has to be all for today but I fear this is going to be a long one, maybe 5000 words, Not writing on Sunday!

forever Baptist
allischalmers
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So you’re just going to bore us with 5000 words and not respond to any comments so far made by other posters. I think you should just stop now for good and give us a break. These forums are for discussion purposes. If you are not going to discuss anything you shouldn’t start a thread.
 
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allischalmers:
Good Morning
before I continue with" Hebrews 2;2-6 exposed" I would like you to know that I have a desire to reach into my little bag of over forty years of Bible study notes and write an essay for all the verses that EDEN posted, However this is getting all too time comsuming and I have other things God would like to do before I meet my Lord Jesus Christ face to face and hear those wonderful words "well done my good and faithful servant.
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WOW, Allis. I would have assumed with your initial 1 Thess. 5:21 quotation–“prove all things”–that you would, out of Chrisitan charity, actually DISCUSS your propositions. In case you are unaware, many (if not most) of us are not hear for our health and we genuinely would like to engage in conversation. I, for one, have read your posts here with the hope that I would gather some indication that you are sincere in your pursuit of truth with love and care for those of us “dear” religious people with whom you disagree. I can not judge your heart, but from your most recent post I am made ever more aware of your intention to pontificate rather than encourage and share. I’m sure it will be of no consequence to your endeavor here, but I do not intend to carry on this one-sided conversation until you are ready to reciprocate.
 
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allischalmers:
before I continue with" Hebrews 2;2-6 exposed" I would like you to know that I have a desire to reach into my little bag of over forty years of Bible study notes and write an essay for all the verses that EDEN posted, However this is getting all too time comsuming and I have other things God would like to do before I meet my Lord Jesus Christ face to face and hear those wonderful words "well done my good and faithful servant. Now to Hebrews–
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Nice cop-out, allischalmers. Forgive us if we opt out your one-sided diatribe.
 
It’s kind of a hit and run method without room for discussion. He gave us a link on another thread which detailed Baptist history. A few paragraphs into the “history”, the author claimed that there is no evidence that St. Patrick knew the Church existed. That’s odd considering he was a bishop and was officially sent on his mission by the pope. I never got a response on that thread after I gave the necessary evidence. We can all see the pattern here.
 
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allischalmers:
Possibly the most crucial-- most misunderstood–verses in all of God’s Word are Hebrews 6:4–6, quoted here:
“It is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, torenew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.”
These verses are among the most solemn in all or the Word of God. they furnish a fierce battle ground among students of theology. The hottest fight extant between religious groups rages around these verses.
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Ridiculous.

Eternal security is only a dispute in one corner of the
Christian world. The author of this article has delusions of grandeur. For most Christians this is not a problem because the teaching of Scripture appears clear.

Edwin
 
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allischalmers:
We must make sure of whom the Holy Spirit is speaking in our passage from Hebrews 6. Is it speaking of born again souls? or of unregenerate souls? What is meant by the statement "if they fall away"? What is meant by the assertion that "it is impossible to renew them again to repentance" ?
Not one of the five expressions used in Hebrews 2;4-6 is equivatent to the partaking of the Devine life; nor are all of them together the equivalent of partaking, as Peter says, “of the divine nature.”
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So partaking of the Holy Spirit is not partaking of the divine life? Is the Holy Spirit not the divine nature? This is heresy. Your argument implicitly denies the divinity of the Holy Spirit. (And I’m going to treat it as yours since you have chosen to post it–it’s up to you to defend it.)
A sinner may be moved in any one or in ALL of the five ways pointed out here, and yet remain an unbeliever.
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It is possible to have communion with the Holy Spirit and be an unbeliever? Now that’s news to me.
Code: 
  We need to pay close attention to the opening words of verse 4  "*For it is impossible...."* These words take me back to an early study of mine where we learned that there were some who professed to be Christians although thay still clung to the Levitical system of ordinances and typology. These were professed believers who still held to the old economy of the law, still trusting in the Old testament sacrifices and Mosaic institutions, which were only shadows and type. They saw Jesus as a great teacher and a great healer--but they would not accept His death, burial, and resurrection, "according to the Scriptures."
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But if such people were merely “professed” believers, they would not have the genuine experiential knowledge of God of which Hebrews speaks.

You’re not getting anywhere with this argument. It’s special pleading from beginning to end.

Given how flimsy the Scriptural arguments *for *eternal security are–how vague and general the texts on which you base your position–there is simply no reason to give this kind of exegesis the time of day.

Edwin

this has to be all for today but I fear this is going to be a long one, maybe 5000 words, Not writing on Sunday!

forever Baptist
allischalmers
 
To Eden
Someone wanted to know about Baptist History so I gave them a link to Baptist history web site. I did not say everything on it was correct, but ninty percent of it was. You just picked one thing to harp on.
To Fidelis
I am not copping out I will continue !
and to JaneFrances
I am just trying to share the gift that the Holy Spirit has given to me to understand the deep, deep mysteries of The Scriptures and a great gift of writing.

forever Baptist
allischalmers
 
Good Morning
before I continue with" Hebrews 2;2-6 exposed" I would like you to know that I have a desire to reach into my little bag of over forty years of Bible study notes and write an essay for all the verses that EDEN posted, However this is getting all too time comsuming and I have other things God would like to do before I meet my Lord Jesus Christ face to face and hear those wonderful words "well done my good and faithful servant. Now to Hebrews–
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And reaching into my 33 years of bible study…Unfortunately Alli your theology doesn’t match up with scripture. How does Hebrews reconcile itself with not only the episode of Simon Magus, but these:

Rev 2:1: "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: …5: Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Rev 2:12: "And to the angel of the church in Per’gamum write:…14: But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice immorality.15: So you also have some who hold the teaching of the Nicola’itans.16: Repent then. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev 2:18: "And to the angel of the church in Thyati’ra write:…20: But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jez’ebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and beguiling my servants to practice immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21: I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her immorality. 22: Behold, I will throw her on a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her doings;

Rev 3:1: "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write:…3: Remember then what you received and heard; keep that, and repent. If you will not awake, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you.

Rev 3:14: "And to the angel of the church in La-odice’a write:…16: So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth…19: Those whom I love, I reprove and chasten; so be zealous and repent.

Notice all the above are churches in asia minor, they are already christian, Christ himself says some have fallen to the church of Ephesus. All fall in one manner or another, and are told to repent. If they could not repent then Christ would not have said so. It will be hard for you to dispute Christ.

John 16:1: "I have said all this to you to keep you from falling away. (Read the end of Chapter 15)

It certainly seems as though Christ thinks it is possible to fall away. They have already been exposed to Him for 3 years and yet He wants to reassure them about His coming resurrection lest they fall away, and these are apostles. He prays for them later (different debate - also that they be united as one i.e. one church, does the Father answer this prayer or not?)

So how does Hebrews 6 fit together with the other events of scripture, Magus, John, Revelation and not remain isolated and exclusive? Are we to forget the other parts of scripture to accomidate a belief, or accomidate our belief to scripture instead?

We already know what the apostles teach about “destructive doctrines” therefore it is our obligation to mold to scripture, teaching and Gods will, not the other way around.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene
 
So we shall continue! Heb.6

Paul is speaking here od persons who were warned in verses 1 and 2 of Hebrews, persons who became learners, yet returned again and again to the rituals of Judism. they may even have profrssed to be Christians, but they were still Judaizers, returning to the ceremonial washings, laying on of hands, laying the foundation of “repentance of dead works.” we read the positive declaration in Romans 10;4 that “Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” These people never actually and experimentally put their faithin the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son Of God and Saviour of sinners. they never fully realized and accepted the truth of Colossians 2:10-- “ye are Complete in HIM.”
“…those who were once enlightened…"
this describes the general effect of the Gospel upon the mind of the hearer; " But call to remembrance the former day, in which after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of affictions” (Heb 10;32). The reference to those who were once enlightened has to do with with illumination given when the Gospel is first heard with the ear and recieved with the mind–we call this “head belief”.
All who have ever made a profession, genuine or counterfeit, were once enlightened ,etc.

forever Baptist
allischalmers

P S. Who is Arthur Pink ???
 
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