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itsjustdave1988
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Do any of these books describe what happens to the devil and his followers after being cast into the lake of fire and their torment has supposedly come to an end?
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ahimsaman72
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It is difficult to say - indeed. We could go back and forth with “according to x, y said z”. I wouldn’t say Philip Schaff is on any further level than any other scholar. You yourself quoted from a source which lists Philip Schaff as saying such. So? I quote someone who wrote a book which is listed at tentmaker - same deal.
I wouldn’t have near the time on my hands to research every quote from every person listed in the many books I’ve looked at. People have already done that for me :whacky: . Why re-invent the wheel?
I don’t have the actual passage in Justin’s work, do you? Do you have a source for all of Justin’s work?
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ahimsaman72
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No, silly. :whacky: That’s precisely my point. You want to take the only verses which speak of it and defintively say that Revelation is the be all - end all source for end-times theology. And it’s not.
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itsjustdave1988
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I believe I quoted from it. It is from his First Apology, ch. 8.
I have Jurgen’s *Faith of the Early Fathers *(lengthy excerpts) and Kelly’s *Early Christian Doctrines *(mostly Kelly’s commentary).
There are also several sites on the internet which offer the Ante-Nicene Fathers(ANF) edited by Cleveland Coxe and the Nicene Post-Nicene Fathers(NPNF) edited by Philip Schaff and Henry Wace.(cf. ANF/NPNF ). You can also go to the New Advent site here: newadvent.org/fathers/
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itsjustdave1988
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I presumed that you believe, as most Calvinists do, that the Bible, in all it’s parts has God as it’s author. If so, Revelation is authored by God, and as such, is inerrant. Consequently, it IS the end all source for end-times theology, as it, more than any other book, addresses the eschaton in its fullest, whereas the other Scripture text mention aspects of the eschaton here and there. Revelation directly states that it is addressing what has happened, what is happening, and what is yet to come.
What other passage of scripture speaks of the future fate of the devil and his followers AFTER the final judgement? Perhaps we can look at each passage that does so.
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Katholikos
Guest
“What is hell
Hell is oneself,
Hell is alone, the other figures in it
Merely projections.
There is nothing to escape from
And nothing to escape to.
One is always alone.”
~T.S. Eliot, “The Cocktail Party”
Posted by Jay
Hell is oneself,
Hell is alone, the other figures in it
Merely projections.
There is nothing to escape from
And nothing to escape to.
One is always alone.”
~T.S. Eliot, “The Cocktail Party”
Posted by Jay
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ahimsaman72
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Yes, all parts have God as their author.
Only Matthew 25:41 refers to the fate of the devil and his angels outside of Revelation and it seems to mirror the same language used in Revelation.
Also, I John 3:8 speaks of the works of the devil being destroyed.
Again, these passages speaking of “everlasting” and “forever and ever” have been addressed on this thread - must we continue to debate the debateable usage of this one passage? We will not agree. In the end - the fate of the devil and his angels do not concern me. It is mankind that I’m concerned with mostly. However God chooses to deal with His adversaries is entirely up to Him.
Actually, the nature of Satan and evil is debateable in itself. Many have challenged the orthodox view of who Satan is and his purpose and the introduction of evil into the world. Of course - this is beyond this thread.
I am inclined to believe in God’s total sovereignty in good things and bad things. Some would consider it blasphemy to speak of God causing evil and sorrow in the world, so I don’t speak of evil and its origination.
Peace…
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
I agree, but I believe God states clearly how he will deal with His adversaries, and in my opinion, the universalists are teaching a different doctrine.
St. Paul asserts, 1 Cor 6:9 “do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?” Anyone asserting that their is not a class of people who will not inherit the kingdom of God is incorrect.
Rev 18:23 speaks of a class of deceivers who will no longer see the light of Christ, never again hear His voice. How will these ever inherit the kingdom of God?
Rev 18:23 (KJV) "And the light of a candle shall shine no more (Gk “ou me”) at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more (Gk “ou me”) at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Likewise, in Rev., after heaven and earth are renewed, a category of people will be cast into the same lake of fire as the devil and his angels. These are those who are not written in the Lamb’s book of Life. The dead are judged “according to their deeds.” (Rev 20:12).
Rev 20 pertains to the final judgment. Rev 21 is the renewal of heaven and earth. Even after the judgement of God, and the renewal of heaven and earth, the fate of two classes of people are contrasted …
Rev 21:7-8 “He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Rev 21:27 “and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever (Gk “ou me”) come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”
According to Thayer, the Greek expression “ou me” signifies “not at all, in no wise, by no means.” There will be some, the unjust according to St. Paul, who will not, by no means whatsoever, come into the kingdom of God.
It is difficult for me to then conclude that there exists another means for these after the day of judgement, already judged to be unjust by Christ, who are not written in the book of life, to come into the kingdom of God.
Universalists seems to suggest that everybody is written in the Lamb’s book of life, but that makes nonsense of the above Scripture passage.
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itsjustdave1988
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Of the unjust who remain impenitent in their sinfulness, St. John Chrysostom says: “These kindle the hell which never extinguishes.” (Homily XI, Epistle of Romans, from Philip Shaff’s Saint Chrysostom: Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistle to the Romans)
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ahimsaman72
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Matthew 12:28
28. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Mark 1:15
5. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mark 9
- And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
First you have to ascertain what is the kingdom of God. As you can tell from these verses above, the kingdom of God is not what you think. The kingdom of God is not the same as the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of God is within you - it is what belongs to God. The kingdom of heaven is more specific to what you are referring to.
People alive in the time of Christ did not see the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is not a certain place as you think. That’s why there’s so many erroneous doctrines about. People don’t know what words mean. How could Christ say, “the kingdom of God is at hand” or “the kingdom of God is within you” if it’s a place? It’s not.
So, your belief is wrong from the start.
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ahimsaman72
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Revelation 21:24-26
- And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
- And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
- And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
The salvation of all men is proclaimed throughout the Scriptures. Just because you point here doesn’t mean what you think. You totally ignore the rest of the Scriptures which speak of the salvation of all men, but remain steadfast on making this passage of Revelation stick to your theology contrary to the evidence that God will reconcile all men.
You want a schedule of events to follow a certain way in the Scriptures. You forget the first two chapters of Genesis are debated hotly because the second chapter seems to differentiate chronologically from the first chapter. We have to be careful about chronology and not make it fit our doctrine as opposed to fitting chronology around our doctrine.
For instance, it doesn’t matter if God created man and it took thousands or millions of years or if it was only 7 literal days. The point is God created man in a period of time. We must not get caught up in notions or ideas.
Peace…
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itsjustdave1988
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Certainly. What do you think Paul means in 1 Cor 6:9 by the unjust not entering into the kingdom of God? Surely he does not mean anybody who has ever been unjust, as this would discount a heck of a lot of people, including himself. I think instead he’s speaking of those who are die impenitent in their wickedness. Revelation shows us the context, that elsewhere in Scripture those judged as “unjust” are those who are judged on that day of judgement by Jesus Christ to be unjust.
The question you should have asked is: What is the kingdom of God AFTER judgement day? The kingdom of God is certainly present today, but imperfectly. Today, the kingdom has both wheat and chaff together until the day of judgement. What will that kingdom be like AFTER judgement day? There will be some, those not written in the book of life, that will not, by any means, enter into the kingdom. So says Scripture, contrary to universalists claims. Likewise, there will be some, that will never again SEE the light of Christ or never again HEAR His voice. Never, by any means. This is the state of the kingdom AFTER the day of judgement, according to Scripture. I understand that it may be easy for one to confound the kingdom of God prior to judgement day and that after judgement day, but Scripture makes clear what the kingdom is like AFTER judgement day, with a renewed heaven and earth, and the unjust definitely separated from the just for ever and ever.
What is debated about Scripture does not determine the meaning of Scripture. For example, just because Arius debated the Divinity of Christ did not bring into doubt the truth of his Divionity.
Yes, it is easy to attempt to read one’s doctrine into Scripture. However, Origenist doctrine began with Origen. Decades ealiers, Justin and Irenaeus believed no such doctrine. Origen himself testifies to his doctrine being a “disputation.” Simply put, his disputation was disputed, and ultimately rejected. It is this latter, novel doctrine that folks are attempting to “read into” Scripture. Those earliest fathers of the Church taught no such apokatasis, and when it was taught, it was rejected because it contradicted both Scritpure and the constant teaching of the Church.
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ahimsaman72
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I quoted the verses and yet you still do not understand. Jesus said the “kingdom of God is within you”. So, if Jesus said it was “within you” He is not referring to a “place” is He? Of course not. That would be a silly statement.
So, we can deduce this is a spiritual item He is speaking of. Those who do not enter the kingdom of God are those who don’t accept Christ in their hearts (where the kingdom of God is).
I did not ask the question about what the kingdom of God is after the judgement. I asked about the nations - the gates - and the role they play in Revelation 21 which is after the judgement (according to you).
Romans 14:11
- For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
- Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
- And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
These Scriptures above (and many others) declare all will bow their knee and confess and all men will be drawn to Christ.
Your theology is based on one book - on an incomplete whole. All verses from Genesis to Revelation must be used and searched to discover the meanings God has for us.
I’ve shown again and again the passages you continue to use as proof-text for the doctrine of hell and everlasting punishment are not what they seem. They are a perpetuation of false doctrines for the sake of keeping people “honest” and afraid for the entire lives that their Creator created them with the express purpose of tormenting them (who didn’t ask to be born anyway) for an eternity.
It’s like a watchmaker (your view) who designs a new watch and then builds it and then becomes frustrated when it doesn’t work according to his plan. He then grabs a hammer and begins to demolish his creation into bits and pieces and throws them away in the garbage.
I would posit that instead - the watchmaker precisely takes apart his creation, fixes the anomaly and puts the pieces back together and conforms it till it fits his design. This is a true watchmaker. This is the God of the Bible - the maker of mankind.
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itsjustdave1988
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And yours is based upon philosophy. I find this one book, the book that discusses the eschaton more than any other book in Scritpure, authored by God, to be more trustworthy than Origenist philosophy.
Futhermore, I’ve given plenty of other passages from other books, but you are too enamored with your conclusions to see that there’s simply no evidence of universal restoration in Scripture.
Bottomline: if the lake of fire ends, it never says so in Scripture. If the bad guys of the Bible, to include the devil, his fallen angels, and all those NOT written in the book of life on judgement day, if they ever leave the lake of fire and enter the kingdom of God, such an account is absolutely missing from Scripture. Nothing, not even that fact, it seems, will persuade you against your heretical views. So …
Good luck in your studies.
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DominvsVobiscvm
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Saint Murgen the Mermaid, pray for us!
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ahimsaman72
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My philosophy is based on Scripture - the whole Scripture.
“Every man’s work shall be made manifest for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.”–I Cor. 3:13-15.
You refuse to comment on the many passages universalists use to show universal reconciliation. You only wish to show the one side that seems to prove your point. I have looked at both positive and negative and explained both - but not to your satisfaction.
The below portion of a book by J.W. Hanson can help us see the relation of fire and smoke “for ever and ever” and that these terms are not enduring or everlasting:
SMOKE OF TORMENT FOR EVER AND EVER
“And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”–Rev. xiv:11.
The two chapters preceding this, and also this, treat of the church in this world, and its enemies. The pagan power is the “red dragon,” and the Roman Empire is “the beast.” The Lamb is Christ. The 144,000 denotes the Jewish converts, etc. The wrath of God on the worshippers of the beast and his image indicates the judgment of God on those who rejected Christ. “Fire and brimstone” and smoking torment is the imagery that the Revelator uses to describe such calamities as befell the wicked people of those times. All the scenery is on earth, as the careful reader will see.
This torment was to continue “forever and ever,” not literally without end, but as the smoke of Idumea, Isa. xxxiv:10, went up “forever and ever,” though it has long ceased; so that of the worshippers of the beast would be forever and ever. This language is applied to length of days. Ps. xxi:4, to the duration of a book, Isa. xxx:8, to the sojourn of the Jews in Canaan, Jer. vii:7; xxv:5, etc. All these have ceased.
tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html#92
Bible Threatenings Explained by J. W. Hanson, D.D
The lake of fire will purify and it will cease.
Blessings to you for ever and ever…
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itsjustdave1988
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NAB Luk 17:21 “… For behold, the kingdom of God is among you.”
The Greek preposition translated as among can also be translated as “within.” However, given the context of other statements in Luke’s gospel about the presence of the kingdom (see Luk 10:9-11, 11:20) “among” is how it ought to be understood.
Luke 10:9-11 (NASB) "and heal those in it who are sick, and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ "But whatever city you enter and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say, ‘Even the dust of your city which clings to our feet we wipe off in protest against you; yet be sure of this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ "
This is also the translation by Protestant scholar Bruce Metzger, in his *New Oxford Annotated Bible, *where the footnote states:
The Greek preposition translated as among can also be translated as “within.” However, given the context of other statements in Luke’s gospel about the presence of the kingdom (see Luk 10:9-11, 11:20) “among” is how it ought to be understood.
Luke 10:9-11 (NASB) "and heal those in it who are sick, and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ "But whatever city you enter and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say, ‘Even the dust of your city which clings to our feet we wipe off in protest against you; yet be sure of this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ "
This is also the translation by Protestant scholar Bruce Metzger, in his *New Oxford Annotated Bible, *where the footnote states:
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itsjustdave1988
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In your opinion. However, Thayer the universalist minister asserts otherwise in his lexicon. As do the other top NT scholars today, as did the earliest Church fathers, as did the early Church in councilar decrees, as do the majority of todays Protestants, all of today’s Catholics, and all of today’s Orthodox.
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ahimsaman72
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Certainly. What do you think Paul means in 1 Cor 6:9 by the unjust not entering into the kingdom of God? Your quote.
You seemed to be implying that the kingdom of God was a place that people did not enter (a physical place). But here you seem to agree with me that the kingdom of God is not a physical place but a state of being - of being with Christ.
Maybe I’m not understanding you correctly. Now, your idea of people not entering this “place” is shot. How can you explain this in light of the Scriptures you were using to assert that the kingdom of God was a place to be denied by those who were “evil” or not written in the Book of Life?
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ahimsaman72
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This torment was to continue “forever and ever,” not literally without end, but as the smoke of Idumea, Isa. xxxiv:10, went up “forever and ever,” though it has long ceased; so that of the worshippers of the beast would be forever and ever. This language is applied to length of days. Ps. xxi:4, to the duration of a book, Isa. xxx:8, to the sojourn of the Jews in Canaan, Jer. vii:7; xxv:5, etc. All these have ceased.
Again, you seemed to miss the point. This is not opinion. It’s a fact that forever and ever does not equal eternity as the above cited passage shows from J.W. Hanson’s book. Per the above example - the smoke of Idumea cannot still be seen to day, though it supposedly was to ascend “for ever and ever”.
And yet again, Thayer isn’t the absolute only authority in matters of faith even if it can be deduced that he believed and listed what you assert that he believed and listed. He didn’t contradict himself as I pointed out already. Either he contradicted himself or you misunderstand his writings and lexicon. I vote that you misunderstand his lexicon.
It would be the most ludicrous thing in the world for him to write a lengthy book describing the fallacy of the doctrine and heathen origin of hell and everlasting punishment and then defeat his own knowledge and opinion and research in his lexicon. That’s not even logical. It must be that his lexicon is misunderstood. That’s logical.
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