Hell and everlasting punishment

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It must be that his lexicon is misunderstood. That’s logical.
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Then it is misunderstood by every writer who quotes from him that I have read in my post-graduate studies. And since his words in his lexicon are quite plain, I take his words for what they clearly mean.

Of course, Thayer is commenting on the NT double-plural usage of aion, which is not the Greek used in the OT passages you cite.

Then there’s Kittle’s scholarship, AT Roberston’s, Strong’s, and oh yes, Vine, which YOU misunderstood to be in agreement with you, much like you continue to insist upon with Thayer. I gotta go with the best scholarship available on this, and it insist against universalist claims. You may be fond of the minority scholarship, rejected by most Protestants, but I’m no more convince of it than I am of the Unitarian view, or all the other protestant protesting that continues to divide protestantism into every increasing denominations. Perhpas one day we’ll have have a Southern Universalist Baptist Church???
 
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itsjustdave1988:
Then it is misunderstood by every writer who quotes from him that I have read in my post-graduate studies. And since his words in his lexicon are quite plain, I take his words for what they mean.

Of course, Thayer is commenting on the NT double-plural usage of aion, which is not the Greek used in the OT passages you cite.

Then there’s Kittle, AT Roberston, Strong, and oh yes, Vine, which YOU misunderstood to be in agreement with you, much like you continue to insist upon with Thayer. I gotta go with the best scholarship available on this, and it insist against universalist claims. You may be fond of the minority scholarship, rejected by most Protestants, but I’m no more convince of it than I am of the Unitarian view.
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And yet still no comment on the many passages that speak of universal reconciliation and salvation of all mankind which I have posted and no refutation of logic or philosophy used throughout the thread pertaining to the character of God and the most recent example of the watchmaker. We must not leave philosophy and logic out of our reasoning - along with Scripture. We have intellect and high capacities that God gave to us. We should use them. Good luck in your future studies as well. I will continue in mine - wherever the truth leads me.

May joy and peace be yours this Christmas season.

Sincerely,

Ahimsaman72
 
But here you seem to agree with me that the kingdom of God is not a physical place but a state of being - of being with Christ.
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No, I dont’ agree with you.

I believe the kindgom of God to it to be both a state of being and a place. A state of being that exists even today, insofar as Christians allow Christ within them, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to be made manifest in their lives. However, there’s a second coming of Christ for a reason, so today’s kingdom will be made more perfect at the eschaton.

God will resurrect our bodies, no? This seems to suggest that a “place” will be needed for our bodies. We go from Scritpure, and Scripture tells us that John saw a vision of the eschaton. He saw a multitude of souls in a place in heaven. Yes, it is a state of being in the presence of God, but after the resurrection, the state of being is made more perfect, and our bodies will exist with a renewed heaven and earth. The last known location of the bad guys of the Bible is the lake of fire. I assert that is the last known location because that is where they remain.
 
We must not leave philosophy and logic out of our reasoning
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I don’t place philosophy and logic out of my reasoning, but I don’t place it along side Divine revelation either, as though it had equal authority. Any philosophy which is contary to revealed Divine truth ought to be rejected. God demands my obedience to the leaders place in the care of my soul. The Church Origen belonged to decided Origen was wrong. That Church, the same one I belong to, has already decreed on the matter. Heb 13:17 demand my obedience and yours.

No Divine revelation pertains to those cast into the lake of fire being reintroduced into the kingdom, being penciled into the book of life after the day of judgement. It’s strictly philosophy which is contary to the Bible.

Instead the Bible says: “nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever (Gk “ou me”) come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

“Shall ever” (Gk “ou me”) doesn’t present the option of coming into the kingdom after “for ever and ever,” used in reference to the life of God, the reign of Christ, the glory and power of God, and all other everlasting things in which the double-plural Greek form of aion is used, like the torment within the lake of fire, has supposedly ended.
 
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itsjustdave1988:
I don’t place philosophy and logic out of my reasoning, but I don’t place it along side Divine revelation either, as though it had equal authority. Any philosophy which is contary to revealed Divine truth ought to be rejected. God demands my obedience to the leaders place in the care of my soul. The Church Origen belonged to decided Origen was wrong. That Church, the same one I belong to, has already decreed on the matter. Heb 13:17 demand my obedience and yours.

No Divine revelation pertains to those cast into the lake of fire being reintroduced into the kingdom, being penciled into the book of life after the day of judgement. It’s strictly philosophy which is contary to the Bible.

Instead the Bible says: “nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever (Gk “ou me”) come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

“Shall ever” (Gk “ou me”) doesn’t present the option of coming into the kingdom after “for ever and ever,” used in reference to the life of God, the reign of Christ, the glory and power of God, and all other everlasting things in which the double-plural Greek form of aion is used, like the torment within the lake of fire, has supposedly ended.
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But you have to use logic and reasoning to even study the Bible. So, it must be on the same level. If you don’t have intellect and logic - you can’t tell left from right. When all Scripture is taken together and logic and reasoning is applied - you come to conclusions.

For me, those conclusions have been stated as defining a just infinite God punishing his finite creation accordingly and restoring him to his place as God’s creation. Obviously, your conclusions are different. And that’s okay.

Peace…
 
And still - no one has commented on the passages of Scripture that I have used showing universal reconciliation and salvation of all mankind.

And still - no one can explain the lack of Old Testament revelation of everlasting punishment.

And still - no one can explain the great prophets and revelators such as Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, John the Baptist, Paul and Peter’s inclusion of ANY language that suggests, hints, explains, reveals any doctrine of everlasting punishment in a fiery hell for eternity.

And still - no one can explain the Creator God creating mankind, knowing some would receive him and some reject them in their short life on earth would receive everlasting life in heaven or everlasting punishment in hell, would still create man and refuse to conform them to his perfect image or save his creation from this eternal hell.
 
… I have used showing universal reconciliation and salvation of all mankind.
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My comment … the passages you cite don’t show what you claim. 😉

Arius “used passages” of Scripture that “showed” that Jesus was not Divine, but a Created being. St. Athanasius’ refuted Arianism as follows:
“[T]hat of what they now allege from the Gospels they certainly give an unsound interpretation, we may easily see, if we now consider the scope of that faith which we Christians hold *, and using it as a rule, apply ourselves, as the Apostle teaches, to the reading of inspired Scripture. For Christ’s enemies, being ignorant of this scope, have wandered from the way of truth…” [Orationes contra Arianos 3:28 (A.D. 362),in NPNF2,IV:409]

"the Nicene is sufficient*, as against the Arian heresy" [De Synodis 6(A.D. 362),in NPNF2,IV:453]
And here, St. Athanasius asserts that Arianism would not have been heretical, had apostolical men also taught his doctrines…
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Had these expositions of theirs [the Arians] proceeded from the orthodox
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, from such as the great Confessor Hosius, and … Bishops of the East, or Julius and Liberius of Rome… or our own blessed Alexander, with others of the same opinions as these;–there would then have been nothing to suspect in their statements, for the character of apostolical men is sincere and incapable of fraud" [Ad Episcopos 8(A.D. 372),in NPNF2,IV:227]The same goes for the heresy of apokatastasis for those holding fast to the same rule of faith as St. Athanasius …

The condemnation of apokatastasis, from the Council of Constantinople (AD 543):
"**If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of the devils and of evil men is for a time and that there will be an end of it at some time, or that there will be a restoration [Gk. *apokatastasis] **
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of the devils and evil men, anathema sit. [Denzinger 411]
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And obedience to the Church, which is the “pillar and foundation of truth” (1 Tim 3:15) is demanded by Scriptures …

Heb 13:17 “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.”

And so, the anathema against this doctrine stands, unless the Church herself tells me otherwise.
 
From Protestant patristic scholar, JND Kelly:
“Thus in the end the Christian must, like Timothy [cf. 1 Tim 6:20] ‘guard the deposit’, i.e. the revelation enshrined in its completeness in Holy Scripture and correctly interpreted in the Church’s unerring tradition.” (JND Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, page 47-48, 51)
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Okay, so the first one has been addressed by not addressing it - i.e. “they don’t show what you show” - even though nothing has been said to tell me what they mean. I guess we can move on to the others I posted earlier, which I reiterate here:

And still - no one can explain the lack of Old Testament revelation of everlasting punishment.

And still - no one can explain the great prophets and revelators such as Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, John the Baptist, Paul and Peter’s inclusion of ANY language that suggests, hints, explains, reveals any doctrine of everlasting punishment in a fiery hell for eternity.

And still - no one can explain the Creator God creating mankind, knowing some would receive him and some reject them in their short life on earth would receive everlasting life in heaven or everlasting punishment in hell, would still create man and refuse to conform them to his perfect image or save his creation from this eternal hell.
 
There are many, many verses which teach universal salvation and redemption of man. Here is a sampling 20 out of 75 that were easily available:

  1. *]1Tim 2:4-God will have all to be saved-Can His will be thwarted?
    *]1Tim 2:4-God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth-Will His desire come to pass?
    *]1Tim 2:6-Salvation of all is testified in due time-Are we judging God before due time?
    *]Jn 12:47-Jesus came to save all-Will He succeed?
    *]Eph 1:11-God works all after the counsel of His will-Can your will overcome His?
    *]Jn 4:42-Jesus is Savior of the world-Can He be Savior of all without saving all?
    *]1Jn 4:14-Jesus is Savior of the world-Why don’t we believe it?
    *]Jn 12:32-Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself-To roast or to love?
    *]Col 1:16-By Him all were created-Will He lose a part of His creation?
    *]Rm 5:15-21-In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live-The same all?
    *]1Cor 15:22-In Adam all die, in Christ all live-Again, the same all?
    *]Eph 1:10-All come into Him at the fulness of times-Are you getting tired of seeing the word, all?
    *]Phl 2:9-11-Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord-Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?
    *]1Cor 12:3-Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit-See what I mean?
    *]Rm 11:26-All Israel will be saved-But most Jews don’t believe yet!
    *]Acts 3:20,21-Restitution of all-How plain can you get?
    *]Luke 2:10-Jesus will be joy to all people-Is there joy is “hell”?
    *]Heb 8:11,12- All will know God-How long, O Lord?
    *]Eph 2:7-His grace shown in the ages to come-Have we judged Him before the time?
    *]Titus 2:11-Grace has appeared to all-Experientially or prophetically?

    *Taken from “Do you believe ‘all’ in the Bible?” by Gary Amirault here: tentmaker.org/tracts/DoYouBelieve.html*This is from post #19 - anyone care to discuss why these passages don’t mean what they appear to mean?
 
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