Hell cannot exist

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Tavoh:

How is it that out of all the religions in the world you just happend to be born into the right one? . . .

That should actually be a very humbling realization for a Catholic. What directly follows it is Luke 12:48b [NAB]

“Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.”

. . . Some of you said " because if he didn’t let you sin it would t be free will" but why would he put you in this earth knowing you were going to be a serial killer ?

So where do you think we should draw the line on that one Tavoh ? Should we include pimps and pushers with the serial killers ? We would definitely have to include doctors who have performed abortions right ? What about bank managers who have foreclosed on people’s homes . . .and lawyers - right ? Shouldn’t we fry almost every one of them too ? What about those who produce pornography ?

What about one person outside a family who commits adultery with a woman and messes up an entire family, including a child who was born from the adultery? It happened to some people very close to me. We are all sinners - not just the serial killers, and the beloved disciple - St John the evangelist tells us : (1 John 1:8) If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Why do you only talk about serial killers ?

 

[Tavoh]

Ok, since I was gone ( because of the limit of replys the forum puts on me) I’ve gotten a lot of replys. I appreciate your thoughts but look. We are all brought up to form our “own” opinions but the end game is that we have no idea what happens when we die. The human race sees ourselves in a world of confusion, we don’t and can’t understand what put us here but we want to learn because of our curiosity about the world and where we came from. If a big green alien head popped up in the sky and told us that he is our god than we wouldn’t think about doubting him, all of Christianity would fall and everybody would worship that big green alien. But of course that hasn’t happend so in turn, since we cannot accept that we don’t understand god or the universe we create religions that provide us with “answers” to make us think we got it all figured out. The older that religion gets the more we believe that it must be true. If Christianity was 5 years old no one would believe in it. There was many other beings that ruled this earth before us. Dinosaurs, Mammoths etc. we refuse to believe we are ignorant so we make our own answers and live by it. I don’t believe that heaven or hell exist because it doesn’t make any sense to why one religion condemns the other religion to hell and both sides will die believing they are right. All humans will have questions like why this and why that and MAN made a book to answer all those questions so the rest of us would shut up and believe in what they believe in. One society has their book and the other has theirs and they will both die by their own book. One thing that stays consistent is that the “ten commandments” in one way or another is in almost every religion. Your catholic god or Christian god blah blah. Isn’t THE god I doubt he abides by one religion and condemns every other human to hell. (Which doesn’t exist). I believe, and Listen carefully, I believe that whatever god is, he looks at you as a individual person and sees if you stayed true to your Belliefs and if you were a good and moral person he gives you your paradise. Which is just a theory but whatever . There is far to many details that explain a infinite god, how could any language made by humans explain the words of an Infinitley knowledgeable and powerful god?? And for all you that say “yes we do not know if he’s even real but we have faith”.When you know damn well that if a homeless man came up to you saying that he is the second coming of Jesus Christ you wouldn’t believe him, some of you would say “ok then preform a miracle” and he said no, just have faith that I am him. Would you believe him? Probably not. We all have our opinions and we will never go away from them. This type of discussion is one that has caused wars. I believe that no religion is the right religion. Live your life good and good will come to you. Not “masterbate and go to hell” “it’s okay to be gay but just never act on it or you will go to hell” " miss one Sunday of mass and if Monday you die you go to hell" “have sex with your girlfriend you go to hell” these are all “rules” that date back to before Jesus. Times have changed and we as a species need to as well. adam and Eve has been disproven, everyone thought that god lived in the clouds till we got planes, the Catholic Church banished scientist because they were afraid that they were going to find something out that disproves something big and they will lose power. Hell is a creation by the church and a scare tactic to keep people in the church therefore staying in power. Most Catholics will say that if you begin to have thoughts that do not agree with the church then that is the devil trying to drive you away, so where’s the free will in this? How is that not a control tactic?You will die without understanding this because where and how you were raised, but I will not. I did not come on this forum to be disproven by the thoughts implanted in your heads by 2000 years of developed bull**** .Most of you read this entire thing and most parts went through one ear and out the other because of what you believe that’s ok, it’s your life. And no, I did not learn the Bible in church, well I did but I decided to sit down and read the words with my own eyes after 10 years of daily mass and I mean daily, as in every day for 10 years. I came here to shed some light of the truth that we as a species have not come to accept yet. We are all ignorant, we know nothing and it is going to stay that way until we see what’s on the other side. Open your eyes.

 

[anon96423383]

HELL CANNOT EXIST. This is my argument…Ok so I was taught in this school that god (because he’s all knowing) can see how you are going to live your life. He knows if and when you will pick A or B. He gives you free will but he knows what you will do with that free will. So if God is all knowing and all loving if he knows you are going to do things that are going to land you in eternal suffering for um, eternity. Why would he create you in the first place? Why would a Loving God CREATE a soul just so it can end up in suffering? Many priest tell me that “he doesn’t send you to hell, you choose to go” ok, this is a very different type of “choice” though. …God is still Judging you, he is making the effort of basically “disqualifying” you from being able to get into heaven therefore you go to eternal suffering. So why would God, ALL loving ALL knowing create a soul that will just eventually end up in hell and suffer. I am not atheist, I believe there is a creator, I believe there is a afterlife… We say that " yeah sure, you don’t have to follow our rules that’s fine. But you go to hell for it."of course you don’t wanna go to hell and will do the things needed to prevent that from happening. Plus, how could god have written the Bible? Did he posses the apostles so he could have control over the pen? No, cause that wouldn’t be free will, so why not make yourself as a human? Oh wait. Jesus! He knew he was gonna die cause he’s Jesus, so why not use all that time to write a book to leave the human race behind, why have other people do it? Wouldn’t a book of Jesus be great? ONE BOOK, but no… Look I have an open mind, I hope that you have had one too while reading this. I’m not saying the Bible is a bull****, I’m just saying that there’s a lot of details that are. Thank you for your time. I’m 18 by the way

Your argument is very similar to Jesus own disciples, when they told Jesus to His face that what He taught them was nonsense, who could even listen to it, and they walked away from Him not to return… (Jn 6: paraphrased) [Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 6]

We pick and choose freely who we will follow. That is How God made us. And there really are consequences for how we use our free will.

The same goes for hell. Jesus said He saw Satan fall from heaven along with 1/3 of the angels who failed their test. They will spend eternity in hell that was prepared for them. As will those of humanity who fail the test. [Matthew 25:41 RSVCE - Then he will say to those at his left - Bible Gateway]

I for one won’t 2nd guess Him

BTW God doesn’t predestine anyone to hell [Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 1037]

 

[Vico]

but why would he put you in this earth knowing you were going to be a serial killer ?

There cannot be moral good without moral evil, so in order to share the divine life there must be another life in contrast.

 

[Vico]

The thing is Hell shouldn’t exist, because nothing can exist without God and Hell is a place without God.

But that is not hell that we teach of in the Catholic Church, rather we learn that God is omnipresent.

 

[Tavoh]

That does not answer the question " why would a all knowing and all loving god create a soul that will end up in eternal suffering . That’s like purposely breeding a kennel of puppies just to burn them alive. What Loving god would do that. Hell doesn’t exist. I don’t know what does but a contradiction like that is enough to disprove it. I beilve in god, not the details that mankind put on him

 

[Tavoh]

So why is praying pointless in “hell” look man, the Catholic Church has caused so many denominations because of the constant inconsistency within it’s teachings, stop thinking you know so much about god and his plans , it’s ignorant don’t think that you were lucky enough to be born into the right religion and every one but you and your catholic circle are condemned to hell because they weren’t lucky enough to be born into you religion. You can say it’s their choice to convert and if they don’t there screwed. They will say the same thing about you with the same belief that they are correct like you. Religion is wrong. Believe in god, be a good person and good will come. and accept that you are ignorant because your brain cannot understand a single thought out of a infinitely knowledgeable God.

 

[ericc]

Why would he create you in the first place?

Because he gave your parents freewill to create you? And he give freewill for you to choose whether you will have kids or not?

As I responded to another post elsewhere, since everyone sins, then parents should do the right thing and stop producing little kids with the intention of stopping evil. Of course the consequence would be that mankind will be zero in one generation. Nope I don’t think that’s what God intended. Freewill is given to all. Everyone has to choose. God’s foreknowledge doesn’t determine your choice. Foreknowledge is “merely” the characteristic of a Being who is outside of time.

Do you have a problem choosing the right thing or is it simply a problem knowing it is wrong but disliking the consequences? Or is it a problem determining whether it is right or wrong. CAF can help if you do not know where to look for the answers. Blaming God for one’s existence seems to be the latest fad to wriggle out of one’s responsibility for their own personal choices.

 

[Tavoh]

This still doesn’t answer why a All LOVING and all KNOWING God would create a soul he knows is going to end up in eternal suffering. Why would he create a soul that can feel just so it ends up in eternal suffering. He gives you free will but he knows why you will do with your free will. Makes no sense and you know it. Say more so I can clear things up for you

 

[ericc]

Of course it does. God respect the choices of your parents to create you. God also created a world that operates consistently. Procreation results in new human beings. Surely you wouldn’t want an interfering God that pops in to stop things from happening on a regular basis. A God that interferes with freewill of good and bad people will result in an insane world because no one will ever know whether God will interfere or not. If natural laws don’t work consistently you end up with insanity.

He gives you free will but he knows why you will do with your free will.

But you don’t. You can determine the future. God won’t tell you what your future is. No one is predestined for hell. He gives everyone sufficient grace to enter heaven. If you believe in predestination, then there is no reason for you to go to school, work hard, etc because everything is predestinated. That would be a most foolish path to take.

You choose not to accept the answer I have proferred and I accept your choice. As in life choices, these are all determined by oneself. You exist, you know what have been taught to either make a home with God or not. Trying to argue whether it is fair /unfair, rationalizing why God do this and didn’t do that etc is truly a moot point in my view. It is what you do next that has value add and determine your path to heaven or hell. At the end of it, it is you who have to stand in front of the Divine Judge justifying your actions. There is not much wriggle room if any since he knows your innermost thoughts. Invincible ignorance is not available to you.

Anyway, what is the point you are trying to make? That God should only create people that can choose good only? That is no different from making robots that can only do a certain action only. God didn’t intend to make robots. He intend to create people who has the freewill to choose to love him as well as to hate him. Because God is Love, he doesn’t compel anyone to love him in return for his love.

 

[spiritualsoldier]

Why did Jesus allow Judas to become to become his disciple If he knew Judas would betray him? (which he did know and foretold).

Love has no worth if it was not chosen as an alternative to selfishness, out of free will. When free will is truly free, some will inevitably choose love, and others selfishness. That is the consequence of free will, and there is no way around it.

Some people have caused so much unrepentant scandal to the innocent (kidnapper rapists for example) that even everlasting bloody hell can hardly be said to suffice for justice. For them it would be better not to have been born. (Matthew 26:24). Please wake up and smell the coffee. Thank you.

 

[Vico]

why would a all knowing and all loving god create a soul that will end up in eternal suffering

I gave a reason but the Catechism expresses that it is something that we do not fully know at this time:

324 The fact that God permits physical and even moral evil is a mystery that God illuminates by his Son Jesus Christ who died and rose to vanquish evil. Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

In order to share in the divine life it is necessary to express charity which requires free will. With free will comes the possibility to be evil. For an angel this decision is irrevocable once made, but for a human it is only irrevocable while the body (not the resurrected body) is alive.

Catechism calls mortal sin a radical possibility, we do not certainly know the final state of a person without divine revelation.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

 

[Vico]

praying pointless in “hell” … you were lucky enough to be born into the right religion and every one but you and your catholic circle are condemned to hell

A person cannot merit after death nor without the state of sanctifying grace. The Church does teach that there are different degrees of punishment after death. We do not know if it is constantly to the same degree, but for hell there is no Beatific Vision even if there be a state of natural peace for some.

The Catholic Church teaches that non-Catholics may be saved also

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338.

 

[Tavoh]

First of all, why are you speaking about god like you know him personally? How do you know the choices that he made for us and his purpose for making us? For something that a book written by man told you? You are trying to find your reasoning in the “post creation” talking about a persons parents and Thier desicions for raising the child. I’m talking about the very beginning. The point where god created a soul knowing it was going to use his or hers free will to land him or herself in hell. I’m not saying he has pre destined that person. I’m saying He simply knows what is going to happen, a loving God would not create a soul to end up in hell. Understand?

 

[Tavoh]

Sir, you said " we don’t don’t know if it constantly to the same degree etc. no, you know nothing, I know nothing, we can’t know anything because we are man. My point in all this is to abolish the ignorance of people believing that there religion is the right religion, when no religion is the right religion. The Bible is man trying to create there own answers to their own questions by basically quoting god for credibility, when infact i don’t even know if that’s possible because of our mental capacity and we don’t actually know that. Humans want evidence, it’s in our nature. And the church sais that if we require evidence and don’t rely on faith we are condemned to hell? I don’t buy it sir, and neither should you or any other person on this earth

 

[Vico]

Sir, you said " we don’t don’t know if it constantly to the same degree etc. no, you know nothing, I know nothing, we can’t know anything because we are man. My point in all this is to abolish the ignorance of people believing that there religion is the right religion, when no religion is the right religion. The Bible is man trying to create there own answers to their own questions by basically quoting god for credibility, when infact i don’t even know if that’s possible because of our mental capacity and we don’t actually know that. Humans want evidence, it’s in our nature. And the church sais that if we require evidence and don’t rely on faith we are condemned to hell? I don’t buy it sir, and neither should you or any other person on this earth

We can know by revelation, that is by what God has revealed.

 

[Tavoh]

All of you can say I’m stubborn or just not excepting any answers that you give me, when at the same time you are unable to give me the actual answer to my question ( which was rhetorical) because it does not exist. Disproving your idea of hell. You will probably die not accepting this which is sad but so be it. We are all ignorant, we do not have the consciousness to understand god. What makes you think we understand his plan? Stop with the Bible quotes, I’ve read the Bible. I know what it sais and the more I read it the more it became clear that it an attempt of answering any possible question that goes against the church by man, not god. PLEASE READ THIS PART. Imagine writing a letter to monkey in their language but there launguage only has 10 letters in their alphabet, you could get some things across but you couldn’t totally express yourself because of the limit of their understanding, now imaging an infinite god with infinite knowledge that only has English to work with. We cannot understand what this means because it goes over our understanding. We couldn’t understand if we tried. And he wrote through the hands of a human??give me a break. We know nothing and will continue this until we die and reach a higher state of conciousness. If you cannot accept this you will die thinking you know everything while knowing nothing and we have nothing left to talk about. I apologize for attempting to bring sense to you and wasting your time. Thank you and good bye

 

[Hbracero]

Since when do we humans can make assumptions and judgements about God?
The same way that we understand why we eat or drink to stay alive is the same way we know what and who is GOD.
He came and lived here and did a lot of miracles and 4 writers wrote his story using his words and some others wrote exactly what the good and the bad
Even some others wrote about him Flavious Josephus a jewish historian and many others,he is the LIGHT,he is the WAY
Read about I AM ,before Abraham I AM
BECOME A CHRISTIAN BELIEVE IN JESUS

 

[Tavoh]

believe what you want

 

[Vico]

No, that is what some dude wrote, god did not write those letters, a man did and said that’s what god told him. Either way this is pointless, it’s back and forth nonsense and I’m tired of the ignorance of the religion goodbye

Revelation is not referring to words written in a book. Think about it.

Father, you sent your Word to bring us truth and your Spirit to make us holy. Through them we come to know the mystery of your life. Help us to worship you, one God in three Persons, by proclaiming and living our faith in you.