Hell confuses me

[Vico]

Yep, free-will is to a significant extent a mirage; get used to it.

ICXC NIKA

Modern Catholic Dictionary
Free Will. The power of the will to determine itself and to act of itself, without compulsion from within or coercion from without. It is the faculty of an intelligent being to act or not act, to act this way or another way, and is therefore essentially different from the operations of irrational beings that merely respond to a stimulus and are conditioned by sensory objects.

 

[GEddie]

Modern Catholic Dictionary
Free Will. The power of the will to determine itself and to act of itself, without compulsion from within or coercion from without. It is the faculty of an intelligent being to act or not act, to act this way or another way, and is therefore essentially different from the operations of irrational beings that merely respond to a stimulus and are conditioned by sensory objects.

The problem is that conditioning is not absent from our life; in fact it is quite strong. Perfect freedom is a mirage.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Hi, Michael!

…didn’t go to the links…

And thus missed my point entirely.

 

[eddie_too]

some in this thread say that no one would willingly choose to engage in actions that lead to eternal damnation. therefore everyone avoids hell through invincible ignorance.

but, their very testimony indicates that they, themselves, know perfectly well what hell is and that it exists. my conclusion is that at least they know that their actions can lead to a place of eternal damnation. they, at least, cannot claim invincible ignorance.

if some are arguing that no one should be held accountable for any of their actions because they are not free when they choose their sinful actions, once again, why do they think they are compelled to sin?

i would be interested in hearing why, as others have pointed out, a person is compelled to plot a murder of another person.

do people really believe that there is no point during the plotting that a person could stop plotting?

it is true that there are ways that free will can be lessened. one, for example, is when some one is placed in fear of their life if they do not act according to the person placing them in fear.

it seems that in the case of hell, free will should be strengthened, not diminished, by the threat of eternal damnation.

eternal damnation is not a difficult idea to comprehend, so ignorance of hell is not likely to be a common condition of human beings, at least human beings who have encountered the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

finally, God is the creator of hell only indirectly because He creates the creatures that chose or choose hell. there would be no hell if creatures with intellects and free wills did not choose enmity with God over friendship with God. in effect, God’s creatures created hell.

why free and knowing creatures would choose enmity instead of friendship has been the subject of much theological speculation. that speculation often revolves around two of the capital sins, pride and envy; but, ultimately, we humans will never know for sure why we reject God’s love, but we do it every time we sin.

Thankfully, for all of us, our Creator is a merciful and loving being and through faith and repentance our salvation can be achieved.

 

[Jomann]

Christians sometimes confuse eternity as being an infinite amount of physical time but heaven and hell are the absence of physical time.

And people will lose their free will when they will see God in the afterlife. So your will will be fixed from that point.

Probably will be humans who will choose hell as demons did once.

 

[jcrichton]

some in this thread say that no one would willingly choose to engage in actions that lead to eternal damnation. therefore everyone avoids hell through invincible ignorance.

but, their very testimony indicates that they, themselves, know perfectly well what hell is and that it exists. my conclusion is that at least they know that their actions can lead to a place of eternal damnation. they, at least, cannot claim invincible ignorance.

if some are arguing that no one should be held accountable for any of their actions because they are not free when they choose their sinful actions, once again, why do they think they are compelled to sin?

i would be interested in hearing why, as others have pointed out, a person is compelled to plot a murder of another person.

do people really believe that there is no point during the plotting that a person could stop plotting?

it is true that there are ways that free will can be lessened. one, for example, is when some one is placed in fear of their life if they do not act according to the person placing them in fear.

it seems that in the case of hell, free will should be strengthened, not diminished, by the threat of eternal damnation.

eternal damnation is not a difficult idea to comprehend, so ignorance of hell is not likely to be a common condition of human beings, at least human beings who have encountered the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

finally, God is the creator of hell only indirectly because He creates the creatures that chose or choose hell. there would be no hell if creatures with intellects and free wills did not choose enmity with God over friendship with God. in effect, God’s creatures created hell.

why free and knowing creatures would choose enmity instead of friendship has been the subject of much theological speculation. that speculation often revolves around two of the capital sins, pride and envy; but, ultimately, we humans will never know for sure why we reject God’s love, but we do it every time we sin.

Thankfully, for all of us, our Creator is a merciful and loving being and through faith and repentance our salvation can be achieved.

Hi, Eddie!

…it’s not such a great mystery:

19 And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil. 20 For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved. 21 But he that doth truth, cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, because they are done in God.

(St. John 3:19-21)
Man makes a conscious choice to do what is right in the eyes of God or to do what is right in the eyes of man… then he goes into a rant of indignant ignorance and impotence… remember Adam and Eve… ‘…this woman you gave me…’ and ‘…the serpent…’ our lineage comes from a long line of :juggle::takeoff:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[pacloc]

Christians sometimes confuse eternity as being an infinite amount of physical time but heaven and hell are the absence of physical time.

And people will lose their free will when they will see God in the afterlife. So your will will be fixed from that point.

Probably will be humans who will choose hell as demons did once.

Where do you find any Father of the Church teaching that eternity is not an infinite amount of time? This seems like some new concept that sounds cool to say but doesn’t make any sense. We are creatures, angels are creatures, we will never go backward into time and exist before our conception.

Nobody loses free will either. Those in hell will long for comfort as is indicated from the account of Lazarus and the rich man, and from numerous visions of hell. But in God’s Wisdom, He knows that their desire for comfort is still purely from a sinful motive, not because of repentance. And the Holy ones will have willed to follow God so fervently, that God will reward their efforts by eliminating all temptations (also a reason to rid the world of the wicked) so that following God will be completely natural. So yes, the faithful will become dispassionate, but not because of a lack of freewill.

 

[Vico]

The problem is that conditioning is not absent from our life; in fact it is quite strong. Perfect freedom is a mirage.

ICXC NIKA

Free will does not require perfect freedom. God gives grace in addition to our will.

 

[GEddie]

Where do you find any Father of the Church teaching that eternity is not an infinite amount of time? This seems like some new concept that sounds cool to say but doesn’t make any sense. We are creatures, angels are creatures, we will never go backward into time and exist before our conception.

Nobody loses free will either. Those in hell will long for comfort as is indicated from the account of Lazarus and the rich man, and from numerous visions of hell. But in God’s Wisdom, He knows that their desire for comfort is still purely from a sinful motive, not because of repentance. And the Holy ones will have willed to follow God so fervently, that God will reward their efforts by eliminating all temptations (also a reason to rid the world of the wicked) so that following God will be completely natural. So yes, the faithful will become dispassionate, but not because of a lack of freewill.

Collinear time is physical. It requires a physical substrate, such as your body, on which to take hold.

ICXC NIKA

 

[steve_b]

I’ll be very honest that I don’t understand hell. Eternal damnation FOREVER to person a loving and merciful God created? I cannot wrap my mind around it at all, no matter what his/her sins are.
What’s the history of the teaching…and how does one even fathom something like hell from a loving God?

IOW, you want a life without consequences for what ever we do no matter how bad the act is.?

 

[Bonnie]

…and you still consider yourself a Catholic?

Sure do. I know I’m not alone in my belief.

 

[steve_b]

I don’t believe in an eternal hell - that would be a terrible eternal life.

We believe in hell because

• Jesus taught us that it is there and therefore real.
• otherwise why would we need a savior? Savior from WHAT?

From the CCC
ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=hell&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

 

[omgriley]

Sure do. I know I’m not alone in my belief.

Hell, and its eternal reality, is a dogmatically defined doctrine of the Church. You are therefore required to believe in it even if you don’t understand, or don’t like it. To do otherwise would be a serious sin.

That said, even if it wasn’t required for Christians to believe, it still makes sense. I’ve some pretty weak arguments on this thread against Hell —all of them appealing to emotion.

 

[omgriley]

We believe in hell because

• Jesus taught us that it is there and therefore real.
• otherwise why would we need a savior? Savior from WHAT?

From the CCC
ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=hell&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

THANK YOU

If Hell isn’t real, eternal, and horrifyingly painful then exactly why have a Savior at all? What are we being saved from?

 

[jcrichton]

IOW, you want a life without consequences for what ever we do no matter how bad the act is.?

Hi, Steve!

…don’t forget the “catch all:” ‘a God of Love…’

God’s suppose to take it (man’s rejection and unrighteousness) and love and save man in spite of his willful rejection and his stubborn and sinful life’s “choices.” :banghead::banghead::banghead:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[steve_b]

Hi, Steve!

…don’t forget the “catch all:” ‘a God of Love…’

God’s suppose to take it (man’s rejection and unrighteousness) and love and save man in spite of his willful rejection and his stubborn and sinful life’s “choices.” :banghead::banghead::banghead:

Maran atha!

Angel

So no consequences for actions?

Please show me the source, properly documented, where that is true.

 

[YoungApologist3]

We believe in hell because

• Jesus taught us that it is there and therefore real.
• otherwise why would we need a savior? Savior from WHAT?

From the CCC
ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=hell&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

I have a bit to add to this. From newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm:

The Church professes her faith in the Athanasian Creed: “They that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire” (Denzinger, “Enchiridion”, 10th ed., 1908, n.40). The Church has repeatedly defined this truth, e.g. in the profession of faith made in the Second Council of Lyons (Denx., n. 464) and in the Decree of Union in the Council of Florence (Denz., N. 693): “the souls of those who depart in mortal sin, or only in original sin, go down immediately into hell, to be visited, however, with unequal punishments” (poenis disparibus).

 

[jcrichton]

So no consequences for actions?

Please show me the source, properly documented, where that is true.

Hi, Steve!

…I think that you’ve missed the point I was intending to make…

…my attempt was to support your statement; I offered the reasoning behind the various arguments against hell and people not being Saved… they lump it all up into several tenets:

• How can a God of Love condemn people to hell
• A God of Love would not want anyone to suffer hell for eternity
• Everyone should go to Heaven (or some other generalization on why none should suffer the eternal punishment of hell)
• Hell does not really exist

…there’s a whole bunch of bananas just like those…

Man refuses to accept responsibility for his unrighteousness and he wants to pin a guilt-trip on God (’…why would a Loving God condemn…’)

…sorry I was not clear enough for you on my previous post; hope this one helped.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[steve_b]

Hi, Steve!

…I think that you’ve missed the point I was intending to make…

…my attempt was to support your statement; I offered the reasoning behind the various arguments against hell and people not being Saved… they lump it all up into several tenets:

• How can a God of Love condemn people to hell
• A God of Love would not want anyone to suffer hell for eternity
• Everyone should go to Heaven (or some other generalization on why none should suffer the eternal punishment of hell)
• Hell does not really exist

…there’s a whole bunch of bananas just like those…

Man refuses to accept responsibility for his unrighteousness and he wants to pin a guilt-trip on God (’…why would a Loving God condemn…’)

…sorry I was not clear enough for you on my previous post; hope this one helped.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[meltzerboy]

Hi, Steve!

…I think that you’ve missed the point I was intending to make…

…my attempt was to support your statement; I offered the reasoning behind the various arguments against hell and people not being Saved… they lump it all up into several tenets:

• How can a God of Love condemn people to hell
• A God of Love would not want anyone to suffer hell for eternity
• Everyone should go to Heaven (or some other generalization on why none should suffer the eternal punishment of hell)
• Hell does not really exist

…there’s a whole bunch of bananas just like those…

Man refuses to accept responsibility for his unrighteousness and he wants to pin a guilt-trip on God (’…why would a Loving God condemn…’)

…sorry I was not clear enough for you on my previous post; hope this one helped.

Maran atha!

Angel

It appears Judaism is more loving in this regard since it offers the possibility (not certainty) that the truly evil’s soul can be annihilated rather than suffering the torment, both spiritually and physically, of eternal damnation. Of course, this is due to the fact that Judaism does not believe humanity was ever in need of a Savior in the first place (not the Messiah’s role), as we were not previously on the road to hell without having one.

Further, is the role of Jesus no more in Catholicism (and Christianity, in general) than holding out the possibility of attaining heaven and avoiding hell? I thought Jesus had much of value to say about how mankind should live its life in a meaningfully just and loving way on earth, that is, earthly salvation as well as heavenly salvation.