It seems we have veered far away from the topic of discussion regarding hell, and toward a heavenly discussion of Jesus, Who He is, the Trinity, the Church, and Judaism. Not your fault, and probably mine. I can continue but perhaps it would be better to start a new thread.Is anyone more Jewish than Jesus? or His apostles? Or His followers in the beginning?
What you are eluding to is a split between Jews within Judaism. In your previous posts, you elude to many splits in Judaism. And there is a wide range of beliefs in Judaism.
On the contrary, Jews DID accepted it as inspired. Just not the Jews you refer to.
Allow me to re emphasize, NO ONE is more Jewish than Jesus. The Church in the beginning was 100% Jewish. Jesus didn’t even want His apostles going to the Gentiles in the beginning. Only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel
Matthew 10:6
but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.In Context | Full Chapter |
Matthew 15:24
He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”In Context | Full Chapter |
Obviously Jesus expanded that
People were saying He was a prophet.
All that came through the Jews as well. It is ALL prefigured in the OT and fulfilled in the New.
My bad,
I didn’t quote the verses that DO say Jesus is God.
John a Jew, and an apostle of Jesus, wrote In his Gospel
(emphasis mine)
Jn 1: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.a] 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.”
Jesus is the “Word” being spoken of there.
John is giving us, if you will, a new Genesis story.
The word Trinity was not there in the beginning but the understanding was clearly there from the beginning.
Re: Genesis
Genesis 1:26
Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”In Context | Full Chapter |
Q: who is us referring to? Who is ***our *** referring to?
So why exclude him from the promised land?
We might not have stayed specifically on hell, and took an excursion, but I think it was valuable just the same, in building the story before we could substantively address hell and its existence from a Jewish perspective. Keeping in mind, Jews were split, between those who accepted Jesus, vs those who didn’t. So we can’t just say “Jews” as if it is monolithic. And I think that’s an important point to make. Jews DID teach on Hell. Just not the Jews you refer to, but the Jews I refer to. And of course that didn’t just stay with Jews but expanded to everyone else.It seems we have veered far away from the topic of discussion regarding hell, and toward a heavenly discussion of Jesus, Who He is, the Trinity, the Church, and Judaism. Not your fault, and probably mine. I can continue but perhaps it would be better to start a new thread.
You are not presenting real scenarios. I’m pretty sure that it has already been stated in this thread that the free will has to do with doing evil or doing good, and that doing evil will have the consequence of hell, separation from God. So the free will is not directly choosing separation from God, but rather choosing to sin, which cannot be done and be connected to God. That is why Christ spoke of really only 2 options, with Him or against Him. And your understanding of God choosing people as prophets is muddied with protestant and sadly even a lot of newer Catholic teaching. God in His foreknowledge gives deserving ones these roles, and even uses wicked people to prophecy His will. It must be understood, that God is not partial to any race or person. Your understanding about seeing miracles is also wrong, because it is a fact that many of us have seen very miraculous things, and over time, forget about their importance. The Jews that opposed Christ still wanted to kill Him after seeing Him raise Lazarus from the dead. Now what is emphasized to show God’s foreknowledge is that before these holy men did any good things, God chose them. It is purely trying to show God’s foreknowledge, not that they only did those good things because God chose them.Not all Christians believe in the literal definition of Hell… About free will, I don’t think anyone in their sane mind would choose Hell, to eternally suffer… Free will does not explain everything, prophets and saints were often chosen by God before they were able to make a choice right? Anyone who would see God and his visions or miracles like prophets and saints did would propably choose God, not out of love always, but because it is the right thing to do, to not say no to an powerful being who is able to destroy you if you refused. Did these saints and prophets have the free will as you think most people do?
I understand and also agree with what you’re saying, I was going with the belief that is more dominated, according to that belief. But we can’t also deny that seeing visions, miracles, angels, prophecies or God taking to you, may have a stronger influence on becoming a saint or a prophet which in many cases happened before leading a saintly life as I already mentioned, so both of what you mentioned and I did are correct in my opinion.You are not presenting real scenarios. I’m pretty sure that it has already been stated in this thread that the free will has to do with doing evil or doing good, and that doing evil will have the consequence of hell, separation from God. So the free will is not directly choosing separation from God, but rather choosing to sin, which cannot be done and be connected to God. That is why Christ spoke of really only 2 options, with Him or against Him. And your understanding of God choosing people as prophets is muddied with protestant and sadly even a lot of newer Catholic teaching. God in His foreknowledge gives deserving ones these roles, and even uses wicked people to prophecy His will. It must be understood, that God is not partial to any race or person. Your understanding about seeing miracles is also wrong, because it is a fact that many of us have seen very miraculous things, and over time, forget about their importance. The Jews that opposed Christ still wanted to kill Him after seeing Him raise Lazarus from the dead. Now what is emphasized to show God’s foreknowledge is that before these holy men did any good things, God chose them. It is purely trying to show God’s foreknowledge, not that they only did those good things because God chose them.
I’m glad you agree with what I was trying to say, I thought maybe you had developed a warped view of what Christianity really is. I agree that seeing miracles, angels, etc could help, and that is why God shows some these things. But in His Providence, He knows who it will hurt to experience these things at a given point. For example the temptation to stop in spiritual growth/battle because you have been given visions of Holy things. Christ said it was better to believe without seeing miracles. Paul said it was God’s will to let him suffer a thorn in the flesh and saw it as a blessing since God did not remove it. As Christians, we must believe that overall, no one is given any more grace than another to lead them to God. After this relationship begins to be mended, then of course more grace is given to those individuals accordingly. Saint Gregory of Nyssa explains it very nice in explaining “Whether a man be rich or poor, servant or master, whether he be of noble family or a slave, no condition either increases or decreases the quality of justice.” And so we can say that each person’s experience in life is unique but equal to everyone else’s in God’s eyes. We must get away from any idea that God gives more grace to some than others, just because we each experience different things.I understand and also agree with what you’re saying, I was going with the belief that is more dominated, according to that belief. But we can’t also deny that seeing visions, miracles, angels, prophecies or God taking to you, may have a stronger influence on becoming a saint or a prophet which in many cases happened before leading a saintly life as I already mentioned, so both of what you mentioned and I did are correct in my opinion.
Hi!I certainly do not mean that the Church made up the Trinitarian G-d out of cheesecloth. But did the Church still not have to interpret what the Apostles meant in their writing? I thought that even the Apostles were not necessarily uniform in their views regarding the divinity of Jesus, let alone the Trinity. And we know there were all sorts of notions to explain what the Trinity really is (there still are comparisons by Christian apologists, most or all of which fall somewhat short), some of which were branded as heresies by the Church. After all, this must have been a monumental step going from the Jewish belief that G-d is indivisible in any way, shape, form, or function to believing that there are three distinct Persons who form One G-d. And added to that the belief that Jesus is completely human as well as completely divine: the hypostatic union consisting of two natures that are neither mixed together nor combined into another, third nature. This must have been open to discussion and debate by the Church Fathers with the Biblical text as a guiding reference point. Besides, is the Trinity still not considered a mystery by the Church?
(St. John 8:54-58)54 Jesus answered: If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifieth me, of whom you say that he is your God. 55 And you have not known him, but I know him. And if I shall say that I know him not, I shall be like to you, a liar. But I do know him, and do keep his word. 56 Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it, and was glad. 57 The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.
Hi!Not all Christians believe in the literal definition of Hell… About free will, I don’t think anyone in their sane mind would choose Hell, to eternally suffer… Free will does not explain everything, prophets and saints were often chosen by God before they were able to make a choice right? Anyone who would see God and his visions or miracles like prophets and saints did would propably choose God, not out of love always, but because it is the right thing to do, to not say no to an powerful being who is able to destroy you if you refused. Did these saints and prophets have the free will as you think most people do?
Very nice straw man. It does not begin to accurately represent that which you seem to be arguing against.But do we truly choose let me give you an analogy.
Say I’m a crime boss and come to your place of business and say I want you to cut me in for 5% of the gross take a week or I can’t assure you of my protection then have one of my men or women bust up your display with a baseball bat. And if you go to the police your pretty wife will get a visit and she might get hurt get my meaning friend.
Then now you were shown I will hurt your business and maybe you, gave a clear choice you can pay me the money OR I will wreck things and maybe bust your kneecap at some point. Then you can choose to pay me or not or go to the police for help hoping your wife isn’t harmed.
God didn’t do that he hides his nature behind creation, used ancient books and writings much of it up for interpretation by the many denominations of Christian your claiming like they to be the true one and have a Jesus figure who there is no real evidence of him being more than a mortal man, from all my study of Jesus. So unless I see a bit of heaven and hell, see at least an angel or two and get a clear rulebook to follow say in plain English I’m not choosing. My crime boss is honest and your God is a trickster who wants to punish with Hell all the people he can get from my perspective. That makes him then a Sociopath. Even if he was open how could I worship save for fear of Hell such a being I would pay lip service and it would be fear and not love or desire to care for him as a good being but as a horror.
I have a few problems with Aquinas’s statement. One, how does he know that? He has never died nor spoken to anyone who has died. Two, we know that people in life can go through a change where they go from doing good to doing evil and vice versa. So what does Aquinas think is different about the will post-death that makes it impossible to change unlike pre-death? Three, if Hell is to be believed there are souls in it who were good, but who expressed doubts about the Christian God (i.e. They are not invincibly ignorant but were not convinced by arguments for him.) This explanation that Aquinas gave (which appears to have been created from whole cloth) doesn’t account for this gray area.Saint Thomas Aquinas taught that we continue to will in the direction we were headed at death. So someone who willed evil will continue to will evil, forever. So the punishments of Hell are not just for the evils willed in life, but for the evils one continues to will in perpetuity. Someone who wills the good continues to do so, and is unired with it eternally.
Hi!But do we truly choose let me give you an analogy.
Say I’m a crime boss and come to your place of business and say I want you to cut me in for 5% of the gross take a week or I can’t assure you of my protection then have one of my men or women bust up your display with a baseball bat. And if you go to the police your pretty wife will get a visit and she might get hurt get my meaning friend.
Then now you were shown I will hurt your business and maybe you, gave a clear choice you can pay me the money OR I will wreck things and maybe bust your kneecap at some point. Then you can choose to pay me or not or go to the police for help hoping your wife isn’t harmed.
God didn’t do that he hides his nature behind creation, used ancient books and writings much of it up for interpretation by the many denominations of Christian your claiming like they to be the true one and have a Jesus figure who there is no real evidence of him being more than a mortal man, from all my study of Jesus. So unless I see a bit of heaven and hell, see at least an angel or two and get a clear rulebook to follow say in plain English I’m not choosing. My crime boss is honest and your God is a trickster who wants to punish with Hell all the people he can get from my perspective. That makes him then a Sociopath. Even if he was open how could I worship save for fear of Hell such a being I would pay lip service and it would be fear and not love or desire to care for him as a good being but as a horror.
We have to make our choices on this side of eternity,( pre death). Post death it is too late. People in hell are there for ever. There is no getting out.I have a few problems with Aquinas’s statement. One, how does he know that? He has never died nor spoken to anyone who has died. Two, we know that people in life can go through a change where they go from doing good to doing evil and vice versa. So what does Aquinas think is different about the will post-death that makes it impossible to change unlike pre-death?n
There are no good souls in hell, so don’t go there…Three, if Hell is to be believed there are souls in it who were good,
RE: invincible ignorance.but who expressed doubts about the Christian God (i.e. They are not invincibly ignorant but were not convinced by arguments for him.) This explanation that Aquinas gave (which appears to have been created from whole cloth) doesn’t account for this gray area.
Hi, Mike!Agreed, Libertarian_FL. To extrapilate your analogy even further:
If we treat God/Yahweh as a mob boss who shows no evidence of acting on his threats, then we have many other similar bosses who not only demand protection but allegedly get angry when protection is paid to other such mob bosses.
In real life if two gangs cross turfs the matter gets handled in a very evident way. But here God is just one of many who demand loyalty, none of whom can demonstrate on earth why one should follow one over the other.
I didn’t ask about whether someone would be released from Hell, but instead how Aquinas is so sure that someone couldn’t alter their will from evil to good (or vice versa) post-death.We have to make our choices on this side of eternity,( pre death). Post death it is too late. People in hell are there for ever. There is no getting out.
RE: invincible ignorance.
/snip/
Vincible ignorance
/snip/So the question is, Re: invincible ignorance,
By saying that there is such a thing as vincible ignorance, that the God of Christianity can be shown to be true provided one study enough, means that there is definitive evidence which can not be refuted as to his existence. But as the discussions on CAF show that is simply not the case. Yahweh is neither provable nor falsifiable, and a great many Christians agree with that – that only by faith can one truly come to God. To me a reasonable person can look at the case for God and can choose to believe or choose not to believe. God is a nebulous concept, and each person has to decide within that very gray area where they stand. There is no definitive evidence such that one should be punished for eternity for not accepting.who is this person who qualifies for such ignorance,
Non-believers come in various stripes, including mellow and irate. The same is true for believers.Hi, Mike!
Have you noticed how irate most non-Believers are?
I have noticed that there are those out there who purport to believe in Christianity who don’t follow the tenet listed in Exodus 20:16. Like I said just above, non-believers and believers come in all stripes. I suspect that if I were to start pointing out non-Christians who are not hostile to life that I’d be told they don’t count.Have you noticed that those who reject Yahweh God are openly hostile to all life?
“God With Us”Have you noticed (from historical account) how states hostile to Yahweh God murder millions of their own citizens because they make themselves into gods?
Have you noticed how atheists, regardless of their persuasion, are bent against that which they claim not to believe in?
If memory serves I’ve brought this point up to you specificially in the past year:Have you checked yourself for the time and effort that you employ in denying the existence of God or in constructing apologetics for your religion and/or against the God that you refuse to accept that Exists?
Judgement happens at death. The life we lived on this side of eternity is judged. This side is where we make our decisions.I didn’t ask about whether someone would be released from Hell, but instead how Aquinas is so sure that someone couldn’t alter their will from evil to good (or vice versa) post-death.
That change then, happened on this side of death.There are cases of people with life sentences who have changed their ways despite there being no chance for release, because for some those two things can be independent of each other.
We are ALL innocently and vastly ignorant of all kinds of subjects. And for most people with average intelligence, all that vincible ignorance could be relieved with study of the subject. Not so for someone with a low I.Q. No matter how much effort they spend, they will not understand even the most simple of subjects. THEY could be said to be, invincibly ignorant.By saying that there is such a thing as vincible ignorance, that the God of Christianity can be shown to be true provided one study enough, means that there is definitive evidence which can not be refuted as to his existence.
check out the links that followBut as the discussions on CAF show that is simply not the case. Yahweh is neither provable nor falsifiable, and a great many Christians agree with that
It’s true that one can’t fully come to God unless they have faith. But they can also acknowledge a supreme being behind everything, which they can’t begin to explain, which is faith in it’s root form, it’s just not a formed faith that comes through study.– that only by faith can one truly come to God. To me a reasonable person can look at the case for God and can choose to believe or choose not to believe.
If you’re interested,God is a nebulous concept, and each person has to decide within that very gray area where they stand. There is no definitive evidence such that one should be punished for eternity for not accepting.