Hell exists BECAUSE God loves us!

[mgoforth]

This is one of the worst arguments I have ever heard. In no way does giving us free will require a hell to exist.

Hello, interestedman…I was wondering when you’d be joining us.

 

[mgoforth]

This doesn’t make sense. Why would we want to be with God if we don’t show that we love God on earth? Well heaven is paradise and never ending bliss, right? So you are asking why someone would want that instead of never ending torment? I don’t know, seems logical that someone who rejected God on earth would certainly want to be eternally tortured. Wait, no it doesn’t.

In no way does free will mean there has to be a hell. That is absolute nonsense.

You may say with your words that you want paradise, but your actions say something else entirely. Being a professed atheist and attacking Catholic doctrine at every opportunity doesn’t tell God that you want the reward of eternal life. You and I had this discussion recently if you remember.

 

[mgoforth]

Since when is this the definition of hell? I know for a fact that this has not been the church’s teaching throughout history.

And what fact would that be? Why didn’t you simply provide a source if you know it?

 

[johnnyjones]

No. Maybe in the Protestant denomination a Hitler could say a sinners prayer and have a different outcome. But as to your other points, although you may not be Christian, I see your point and ask the same questions.

 

[mgoforth]

The whole concept of what sends you to hell is illogical. If you are in a state of mortal sin when you die you will go to hell, right? And masturbation can be a mortal sin. So someone who lived a life of charity and righteousness can die after masturbating and go to hell, but hitler can ask for forgiveness right before he dies and goes to heaven. Seems fair, right? No, sorry, not at all.

Yes, you can live a good life and at the end decide that you don’t care anymore and don’t want to live with God. That’s what the actions say in this example.

Yes, Hitler could have potentially asked for forgiveness and eventually get into Heaven…I would suspect a pretty lengthy stay in Purgatory first though, which is no picnic. But what are the chances that Hitler asked for forgiveness? We have no way of knowing for sure, but by living a life of evil any person will be much less likely to ask for forgiveness at the proverbial “last minute”. Chances are that such a lost and sinful person wouldn’t have the proper frame of mind to make a good confession, even if they did suddenly decide that they might be headed to Hell. And it’s pretty unlikely that they would put their pride aside to actually ask God for anything, after spending so long hating Him.

Of course, with God all things are possible…but I don’t think that means all things are likely to happen.

 

[interestedman]

You may say with your words that you want paradise, but your actions say something else entirely. Being a professed atheist and attacking Catholic doctrine at every opportunity doesn’t tell God that you want the reward of eternal life. You and I had this discussion recently if you remember.

I don’t believe God exists. Thus, I don’t believe that the Catholic church has a moral authority. I believe that the Church’s morals are created by men and, in my humble opinion, are flawed in some regards. That is my belief and it is the belief I have come to through rational thought (which if God exists, is something that He gave me).

So, where does that leave us? If I die, and I am confronted by the Christian God, is he going to say “you should have believed in me and my church.” I doubt it. He will know my exact line of thinking that led me to believe that God did not exist. He will know that I didn’t come to this conclusion in some malicious way and that it did not effect how I treated others.

But either way, even if my actions say that I don’t want eternal life, wouldn’t I say it? Once I knew God existed I would imagine that he would impart to me all of the great mysteries of the world (why does suffering exist is a big one) and how everything was all part of his plan. If I had known those things while on earth, I am sure I would have acted differently, but I did not. So no one is really evil, they are just ignorant of the truth.

Sending someone to hell for ignorance would be like beating a child severely for breaking a rule that the child was unaware of. This isn’t what a loving parent would do and it isn’t what a loving God would do.

 

[LaMusicaSenior]

No. Maybe in the Protestant denomination a Hitler could say a sinners prayer and have a different outcome. But as to your other points, although you may not be Christian, I see your point and ask the same questions.

I strggled with this question this weekend.

 The Gospel reading was about the apostle who runs up and tells Jesus: "Guess what we did today?  There was this man who was driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him! But he wouldn't stop!"  And Jesus was like: "No big deal.  He's honoring me by driving out demons in my name."  And if I was the apostle, my reaction would be: "WHAT?!? Are you kidding me?  Here I am, called by you, so I leave my life as a fishermen, become a fisher of men, am ridiculed daily by the scribes and pharisees who think I'm a loser, and will be put to death because of my belief in your teachings.  And this random guy who can drive out demons in your name, your OK with that?  He doesn't even have to go through 10% of what I go through!  He believes, but he doesn't belong!"


  So then I start thinking: Wait a second.  Not only Catholics get into Heaven.  So if, say, a Protestant gets into Heaven - what's the point?  As a Catholic, I follow the Pope, follow ALL of Christ's teachings, believe in the true presence of the Eucharist, go to Church on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, have to turn the other cheek while the media and the modern world constantly criticizes and makes fun of my beliefs, all for the goal of getting to Heaven.  And other people don't have to follow that and they still get in? That's unfair!!


 Then I looked back on my "That's not fair" rant.  Who am I?  Who am I to look at God and tell Him who should belong and who shouldn't?  Who should get in and who can't?  Nobody.  I am but a sigh in the wind in comparison to God's eternal presence. 


 Why wouldn't God want to see all of His children gathered in Heaven?  He is the ultimate dad, and it is a father's wish to see all of his kids around the supper table together.  And who am I to say He can't do that?  Ultimately, me saying that would be saying that I, a 17 year old high school senior, have indefinably more wisdom that 2,000 years of Roman Catholic Church teaching and indefinably more wisdom that God.  Yeah...not likely. 

 The pain God goes through is that all His children don't want to be with Him.  They choose this decision by their actions here on earth, and He lets them do so because of the gift of free will. 

 He loves all of His children - and I shouldn't be the one who says He can't.  If Hitler was truly sorry for the pain and torture he inflicted on others, who are we to say he couldn't be forgiven.  Man doesn't know the amazing bounds of Christ's redeeming mercy.

 

[snarflemike]

Since when is this the definition of hell? I know for a fact that this has not been the church’s teaching throughout history.

Then the fact you know is wrong.

 

[johnnyjones]

I strggled with this question this weekend.

 The Gospel reading was about the apostle who runs up and tells Jesus: "Guess what we did today?  There was this man who was driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him! But he wouldn't stop!"  And Jesus was like: "No big deal.  He's honoring me by driving out demons in my name."  And if I was the apostle, my reaction would be: "WHAT?!? Are you kidding me?  Here I am, called by you, so I leave my life as a fishermen, become a fisher of men, am ridiculed daily by the scribes and pharisees who think I'm a loser, and will be put to death because of my belief in your teachings.  And this random guy who can drive out demons in your name, your OK with that?  He doesn't even have to go through 10% of what I go through!  He believes, but he doesn't belong!"


  So then I start thinking: Wait a second.  Not only Catholics get into Heaven.  So if, say, a Protestant gets into Heaven - what's the point?  As a Catholic, I follow the Pope, follow ALL of Christ's teachings, believe in the true presence of the Eucharist, go to Church on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, have to turn the other cheek while the media and the modern world constantly criticizes and makes fun of my beliefs, all for the goal of getting to Heaven.  And other people don't have to follow that and they still get in? That's unfair!!


 Then I looked back on my "That's not fair" rant.  Who am I?  Who am I to look at God and tell Him who should belong and who shouldn't?  Who should get in and who can't?  Nobody.  I am but a sigh in the wind in comparison to God's eternal presence. 


 Why wouldn't God want to see all of His children gathered in Heaven?  He is the ultimate dad, and it is a father's wish to see all of his kids around the supper table together.  And who am I to say He can't do that?  Ultimately, me saying that would be saying that I, a 17 year old high school senior, have indefinably more wisdom that 2,000 years of Roman Catholic Church teaching and indefinably more wisdom that God.  Yeah...not likely. 

 The pain God goes through is that all His children don't want to be with Him.  They choose this decision by their actions here on earth, and He lets them do so because of the gift of free will. 

 He loves all of His children - and I shouldn't be the one who says He can't.  If Hitler was truly sorry for the pain and torture he inflicted on others, who are we to say he couldn't be forgiven.  Man doesn't know the amazing bounds of Christ's redeeming mercy.

Very well said for a young man. I would still present the question: at what point do we go to Hell? Any mortal sin puts you in torment forever?

As well, one could argue that if Hitler asked God for forgiveness and it was granted, what about all the Jews Hitler brutally killed? They don’t/ believe in Christ, do they go to Hell?

Just a few thoughts. Keep up the smart, thought out writing. Take it from me who screwed up in the years after high school, this is the time that will make your life. Do all that you can do, and help others. Lets get to heaven.

 

[LaMusicaSenior]

Very well said for a young man **Thank you - but I am a young lady **. I would still present the question: at what point do we go to Hell? Any mortal sin puts you in torment forever?

As well, one could argue that if Hitler asked God for forgiveness and it was granted, what about all the Jews Hitler brutally killed? They don’t/ believe in Christ, do they go to Hell?

Just a few thoughts. Keep up the smart, thought out writing. Take it from me who screwed up in the years after high school, this is the time that will make your life. Do all that you can do, and help others. Lets get to heaven.

At what point do we go to hell? That one I do not know.

And I also do not know the spiritual destination of the Jewish people. But I do know this: God takes care of His children. And His People - the Jews - I’m sure are in a special place in His heart. Those people died for their faith in the Lord. It would be like saying that a Protestant missionary who was killed by natives wouldn’t go to Heaven because he didn’t believe in Catholicism. No - he died for his faith in Christ. And who are we to say who gets in and who doesn’t? Nobody. We are but a sigh in the wind compared to the eternal presence, wisdom, and love of God.

Thanks for the advice - writing on here has actually made me re-think about a degree in journalism in my not-so-distant college future.

God bless you and, if it’s not too much trouble, send a few prayers up to Heaven for me? I’ll definatly do the same. Let’s get to Heaven! (I loves that!)

God Bless You all,

Chloe M.

 

[Poseidon]

I really have no words to say here. This argument is so awful I’m shocked that so many people are actually taking it seriously.

 

[hansard]

I get a little tired of this vague blancmange of a theology which says, “No, God doesn’t send you to hell; you send yourself to hell.”
This virtually takes God out of the equation. I might as easily say, “God won’t take me to heaven; I’ll get to heaven by choosing it.” Surely, logically, if the theology applies for hell, it must for heaven, also.
Does God do anything, then? “God doesn’t redeem me; I redeem myself.” Applying the same logic, this statement is completely valid.

I’m 44, and I believe it’s within my lifetime that the church has dramatically shifted its attitude on the teaching of heaven, hell and purgatory. You hear almost nothing about purgatory these days, as if it has vanished from the radar of church teachings. You never hear about hell anymore, either, unless it’s in the context of “a place where there is no god” (I was taught this as a child). Living in rural Australia and teaching in a Catholic high school, I can honestly attest that the concept of sin is no longer given any prominence. It’s all about “good and bad choices” now. Everything is watered down and sanitized to avoid giving any offence to people and to avoid any controversy at all.

I don’t believe it. I believe in a God who actively sends people to hell or takes them to heaven. Why? Because I believe in divine justice, not a bunch of postmodern, touchy-feely platitudes.

 

[interestedman]

Then the fact you know is wrong.

If hell was always just an absence of God, why wasn’t Dante tried for heresy for the inferno?

 

[interestedman]

I really have no words to say here. This argument is so awful I’m shocked that so many people are actually taking it seriously.

Yes, my reaction exactly.

 

[atheistgirl]

I get a little tired of this vague blancmange of a theology which says, “No, God doesn’t send you to hell; you send yourself to hell.”
This virtually takes God out of the equation. I might as easily say, “God won’t take me to heaven; I’ll get to heaven by choosing it.” Surely, logically, if the theology applies for hell, it must for heaven, also.
Does God do anything, then? “God doesn’t redeem me; I redeem myself.” Applying the same logic, this statement is completely valid.

I don’t believe it. I believe in a God who actively sends people to hell or takes them to heaven. Why? Because I believe in divine justice, not a bunch of postmodern, touchy-feely platitudes.

I just want to say thank you for being straight. I too, weary of the argument that God won’t send me to hell, I send myself to hell. Nope, if I end up in hell, it’s because God sent me there, no other reason. As I said before, no one in their right mind would pick hell.

I’ve no problem with the consistency of a Divine Justice damning me to hell and eternal punishment and torture to burn forever without relief in the agonizing flames of hell.

I have a huge problem with the idea I would pick such an option myself.

I appreciate the straight shooting from the hip.

Sarah x

 

[interestedman]

I get a little tired of this vague blancmange of a theology which says, “No, God doesn’t send you to hell; you send yourself to hell.”
This virtually takes God out of the equation. I might as easily say, “God won’t take me to heaven; I’ll get to heaven by choosing it.” Surely, logically, if the theology applies for hell, it must for heaven, also.
Does God do anything, then? “God doesn’t redeem me; I redeem myself.” Applying the same logic, this statement is completely valid.

I’m 44, and I believe it’s within my lifetime that the church has dramatically shifted its attitude on the teaching of heaven, hell and purgatory. You hear almost nothing about purgatory these days, as if it has vanished from the radar of church teachings. You never hear about hell anymore, either, unless it’s in the context of “a place where there is no god” (I was taught this as a child). Living in rural Australia and teaching in a Catholic high school, I can honestly attest that the concept of sin is no longer given any prominence. It’s all about “good and bad choices” now. Everything is watered down and sanitized to avoid giving any offence to people and to avoid any controversy at all.

I don’t believe it. I believe in a God who actively sends people to hell or takes them to heaven. Why? Because I believe in divine justice, not a bunch of postmodern, touchy-feely platitudes.

But is a God that sends people to hell all loving? I say no. I believe in free will but free will only goes so far. You are a product of your mind and your upbringing and neither of which you have any control over. If there is a final judgment, then it is obvious that some people have a leg up on others. Some people are born into loving families who teach them proper morality and have the brain processes to live up to that morality. Other people are born into broken homes where they are taught selfishness and improper morals and might have a certain brain chemistry that makes complements this immorality. So does God judge us all the same? If anything, you can blame God for that person being bad because GOD put them in that situation that molded them into a bad person.

The whole concept of hell is completely incompatible with a loving God. As an example: if your child was a monster and murdered a bunch of innocent people do you think you would think they deserved eternal torture? I doubt there are very many people that would say yes. Are there any parents that would think their child deserved eternal torture because they had gay sex throughout their lives? I would hope not. But God apparently believes differently? But he is all loving? It doesn’t make any sense.

 

[interestedman]

I just want to say thank you for being straight. I too, weary of the argument that God won’t send me to hell, I send myself to hell. Nope, if I end up in hell, it’s because God sent me there, no other reason. As I said before, no one in their right mind would pick hell.

I’ve no problem with the consistency of a Divine Justice damning me to hell and eternal punishment and torture to burn forever without relief in the agonizing flames of hell.

I have a huge problem with the idea I would pick such an option myself.

I appreciate the straight shooting from the hip.

Sarah x

So you don’t think God is all loving? I can’t wrap my head around how anyone thinks that eternal torture is a just punishment for a finite crime on earth…a finite crime that was caused by ignorance of the truth.

I also like that no one has responded to my other post (something like number 26 or 27).

God can’t send people to hell and be all loving. Please make an argument otherwise.

 

[mgoforth]

I don’t believe God exists. Thus, I don’t believe that the Catholic church has a moral authority. I believe that the Church’s morals are created by men and, in my humble opinion, are flawed in some regards. That is my belief and it is the belief I have come to through rational thought (which if God exists, is something that He gave me).

So, where does that leave us? If I die, and I am confronted by the Christian God, is he going to say “you should have believed in me and my church.” I doubt it. He will know my exact line of thinking that led me to believe that God did not exist. He will know that I didn’t come to this conclusion in some malicious way and that it did not effect how I treated others.

But either way, even if my actions say that I don’t want eternal life, wouldn’t I say it? Once I knew God existed I would imagine that he would impart to me all of the great mysteries of the world (why does suffering exist is a big one) and how everything was all part of his plan. If I had known those things while on earth, I am sure I would have acted differently, but I did not. So no one is really evil, they are just ignorant of the truth.

Sending someone to hell for ignorance would be like beating a child severely for breaking a rule that the child was unaware of. This isn’t what a loving parent would do and it isn’t what a loving God would do.

Nice try, but by hearing the Truth proclaimed loud and clear on these forums, you are aware of it and knowingly reject it. Perhaps God will decide in His infinite mercy that you rejected it through no fault of your own…or perhaps God will decide in His infinite justice that you had plenty of opportunities to abandon your pride and stop worshiping your rational mind (human rationality is pitiful and of no comparison to God’s wisdom), and He may send you to Hell.

I will pray that you repent sincerely and stop trying to find loopholes. If I saw one of my 3 children doing that, I would punish them to help them understand how silly they’re behaving and that no good will come from it.

Peace to you, interestedman.

 

[atheistgirl]

1. 
   *]Would you rather be a human being, who is able to make intellectual choices guided by reason, or an animal which is not?

1. 
   Human beings are animals, so that doesn’t work.
   

   *]If you would rather be an animal, why?

   I am an animal
   

   *]If you would rather be a human, why?

   I am human
   

   *]In either case…congratulations! You just made an intellectual choice, which you would not be able to do as an animal.

   Do you have any animals? Are you saying animals don’t make choices?
   

   God loves us enough to grant us complete control over our lives, giving us the final say on every decision we make.

   We don’t always have the final say or complete control over the decisions we make.
   

   God does not force us to do anything, because to love us completely demands that level of respect.

   I love at a level words cannot describe my children, husband and family. My respect for them has a depth that knows no end.
   
   I’ll be darned if they’re free to do whatever the heck they like
   

   If God withdrew that love from us, even for an instant, we would literally drop dead.

   Evidence please?
   

   What an incredible act of humility and love on God’s part to show us such patience and to keep us alive while we insult Him constantly and repeatedly!

   I have so many things I can bring in here that to me shows anything but love and humility on the part of God.
   

   So how does this show that Hell exists as a natural consequence of God’s love for us? Simply because God gave you and I the freedom to do anything, even to run away from Him and hide forever. To question the doctrine of an eternal Hell, separated from God’s presence, is to argue that God is trying to trick us when He claims that we have free will. To say that God should bring us to Heaven, even when we knowingly and willingly sin, is to say that God should pretend to offer us a completely free choice but then ignore our ultimate decision and force His eternal presence on us against our will.

   So your argument boils down to - the proof hell exists is because we have free will
   
   
   
   Not really
   
   Sarah x

 

[mgoforth]

I really have no words to say here. This argument is so awful I’m shocked that so many people are actually taking it seriously.

Please explain why it’s awful.