Hell exists BECAUSE God loves us!

[atheistgirl]

You can have free will, or you can know where this little girl is. Choose one, or the other, but not both, as they are mutually exclusive.

They are clearly not mutually exclusive or Jesus could not have appeared before the saints.

Are you seriously suggesting an all powerful God can’t allow this little girl to be found, without violating free will?

No excuse is necessary. What you bemoan is in fact an example of God’s infinite and perfect love.

That to me reads as complete nonsense. No perfectly loving being, as far as I am concerned, would allow this families suffering to continue when they could end it so easily.

What’s your reasoning for this statement? Catholicism is a religion of faith and reason, in equal measure. So I’m amenable to a reasoned argument, but here you give only a conclusion, no argument.

Our Lady appeared to the children in Fatima and Lourdes. Saints claim to have seen Jesus. None of this affected their free will as this seems to be a cornerstone of Catholic argument - there can be no violation of peoples free will.

So how in the world does God ending this families suffering by revealing, by whatever means, the whereabouts of their little girl violate free will

Correct, but poorly worded. God chooses not to, because to do so would invalidate his design. God is perfect, therefore he won’t do this, because his design is perfect. In short, God won’t choose imperfection; he doesn’t make mistakes.

Anyone on this earth, who knew where this little girl was, and refused to end this families suffering, would not only be charged with obstructing justice, but they’d be considered a moral monster to watch this families daily suffering for the return of their little girl.

Your claim God, the Objective Moral standard by which all are judged, not doing so, because it’s part of His perfect design, just reads as complete nonsense to me.

This is one statement contains two of your mistaken premises, one explicit, one implicit.

Try chaining two or more syllogisms together, and double check your premises. If you get stuck, feel free to message me. Here’s a hint, though: you are reasoning from metaphor.

Good luck, and God bless.

I could care less

To me, syllogistically, metaphorically, and as a matter of fact, this is not a loving thing to do, and never will be. Allagorickely, metaforphecially, hypnotetchnically, logikellicelly or any other fancy term one likes to throw out there.

Please don’t feel free to message me if you’re stuck on the wordified meanifiers.

Good luck to you too.

Sarah x

 

[meme1961]

Conversations about whether god is ever cruel or unloving always make their way to the same two points.

1. Who are you to judge god or his plan?
2. It’s the ultimate mystery.

This ends any chance for real discussion. Its the ultimate tactic to avoid confronting basic facts that contradict gods omni-goodness

If the words “all loving” or “perfect love” can be defined as to include the acts attributed to god in the bible then those words no longer have any meaning. The idea that the word “justice” can include eternal torment and suffering for anyone who chooses not to believe in / love god means that the word “justice” has no real definition.

Not at all! In fact, it is reasonably easy to give the reasoned argument for Hell.

1. God created us with free will.
2. God is perfect. His design is perfect, as is his creation, thus his creation of us with free will is perfect.
3. Free will, to have any meaning, must include the option to choose to separate oneself from God, as to choose any mortal sin is to choose to separate oneself from God.
4. Separating oneself entirely and eternally from God is very, very painful (a torment).
5. Thus, to choose to separate oneself from God is to choose Hell (torment).
6. To argue that one of God’s attributes is “Love”, and only Love, is to reduce God to less than what he is. God is Love, Perfect and Infinite Love, but he is also Perfect and Infinite Mercy, Justice, Truth, Reason, etc.
7. To argue that God must not eternally honor our choice to separate ourselves from him is to argue that God’s plan and design for us to have free will is imperfect. This conflicts with (2) and (3).
8. To argue that God’s judgement must be temporary, is to argue that his judgement is not perfect, which conflicts with (6).
9. If God has the power to prevent an evil, and God is all powerful then, God has the power to prevent EVERY evil.
   9a) If the power to prevent evil confers the moral responsibility to prevent said evil, then God must prevent EVERY evil.
10. Both venial and mortal sins are evil. Thus, God must prevent all venial AND mortal sins from being committed.
11. Thus, God must prevent us from committing any and every evil. To do so conflicts with his design to create us with free will, and thus conflicts with (2) and (3).
12. Logically, if there are two choices that have unequal outcomes, and one outcome is less good than the other, then by the above, God must also prevent us from choosing the less good.

The argument against the existence of God based on the existence of suffering or evil presupposes that God is either finite, imperfect or irrational, or that the arguer does not believe in free will; that God should treat us as utter and total slaves.

Catholicism is a religion of faith AND reason, in equal measure.

Good Luck, and God Bless

 

[meme1961]

I am aware of that. At the very least those people make some serious semantical error, and I am rubbing their nose into their excrement.

But, of course there is more than that. People, who commit acts against the penal code, most probably are aware that their acts are illegal, and IF caught and IF they cannot wiggle out of the charges with the help of a good lawyers, they will be subject to some punishment. But that is still a far cry from “choosing” to go to prison or choosing the gas-chamber.

There is no semantic error here. The word “choice” here means an informed act of free will.

That is different than “wants to.”

You may not want to die when you jump off a thousand foot tall cliff, but you are CHOOSING to die, as you know the consequences of your act, and you choose that act anyway.

So yes, in when you commit a mortal sin, you are choosing Hell.

As long as you live, you can repent, make amends, and become reconciled with God. After death, your faculty of choice ends, so the choice you made in life becomes your eternal choice.

However, the “code” of the acts that will be punished by eternal torture in not something that one can look up in the local library.

This is not true. Almost every motel, hotel and library on the face of the planet has a copy of at least part of the Bible in it.

But more importantly, your premise is flawed. There is no requirement that one “look up” the code. If true, the “code” is true, and the truth can be determined by observation and reason.

There are many people who advocate a different “code” of the unacceptable behavior, and here comes the clincher: “all of them state that they are right, and everyone else is wrong, and NONE of them have the slightest evidence supporting their opinion”. Let’s be brutally honest: “none of them has the slightest credibility”.

Wrong twice. Catholicism is a religion of both faith and reason. The belief in the existence of God is not an act of blind faith, but in point of fact an act of reason. A reasoned argument is based in evidence, thus invalidating: “NONE of them have the slightest evidence supporting their opinion”. Invalidating it twice over, since evidence is presented, and it isn’t just opinion. Go to newadvent.org and look up “Fideism”.

The fundamental truths of Catholicism are provably true, and can be worked out independently by any human being by and act of reason. If a reasoned argument has credibility, this invalidates your second assertion: “none of them has the slightest credibility”.

 

[gabz90]

They are clearly not mutually exclusive or Jesus could not have appeared before the saints.

Are you seriously suggesting an all powerful God can’t allow this little girl to be found, without violating free will?

That to me reads as complete nonsense. No perfectly loving being, as far as I am concerned, would allow this families suffering to continue when they could end it so easily.

Our Lady appeared to the children in Fatima and Lourdes. Saints claim to have seen Jesus. None of this affected their free will as this seems to be a cornerstone of Catholic argument - there can be no violation of peoples free will.

So how in the world does God ending this families suffering by revealing, by whatever means, the whereabouts of their little girl violate free will

Anyone on this earth, who knew where this little girl was, and refused to end this families suffering, would not only be charged with obstructing justice, but they’d be considered a moral monster to watch this families daily suffering for the return of their little girl.

Your claim God, the Objective Moral standard by which all are judged, not doing so, because it’s part of His perfect design, just reads as complete nonsense to me.

I could care less

To me, syllogistically, metaphorically, and as a matter of fact, this is not a loving thing to do, and never will be. Allagorickely, metaforphecially, hypnotetchnically, logikellicelly or any other fancy term one likes to throw out there.

Please don’t feel free to message me if you’re stuck on the wordified meanifiers.

Good luck to you too.

Sarah x

You can’t understand God’s love because you have a poor definition of love to begin with. Love does not necessarily mean hugging and singing and prancing. If your parents correct you when you’re misbehaving, that is love too. Could God end all of our sufferings in one instant? Sure He could… Why doesn’t He? Because you won’t let Him, and being that God is love, love can’t force you to do anything. God offers you all sorts of gifts, it’s you who won’t take them.

You can imagine this as a father offering his child some medicine. If the child refuses to have it, then when he gets worse he can’t accuse his father of not ending the suffering. The father did all he might… God even sent His only begotten Son to die for us. This is how much He loves.

Love also demands justice. For if God is not just, it is not love. Justice and free will, when coupled with disobedience is the cause for hell. If a person lives his whole life pleasing God and someone comes and tortures and murders him and takes all his possessions, if God didn’t do anything about that, God wouldn’t be just. But the justice of God is so severe only because His mercy is so exceedingly great.

In other words, even if you have an ocean of sins, even if you hate him all your life, he can still welcome you in heaven if you repent before you die. That’s mercy! That’s also the reason hell is so severe. After being show such compassion and patience, justice demands it.

You say God could end our sufferings but He doesn’t… But on the other hand, look at you, you reject His existence, His love and you spread this to others, what is God supposed to do with you? Force you to believe in Him? Force all His gifts on you? That’s not love. If God ended your sufferings against your will, He is not loving you, He’s controlling you for whatever end He wants.

So if we are going to talk about Love, we first need to agree on what true love is, as people today struggle to understand it.

Someone else said “But, of course there is more than that. People, who commit acts against the penal code, most probably are aware that their acts are illegal, and IF caught and IF they cannot wiggle out of the charges with the help of a good lawyers, they will be subject to some punishment. But that is still a far cry from “choosing” to go to prison or choosing the gas-chamber.”

There is a fundamental flaw in this logic. The person who commits this illegal acts may not be caught, he may get away with it, that’s why you can say it is “still a far cry from choosing to go to prison”… But if the person has an absolute certainty that he will go to prison by doing certain thing, then that IS a choice, whether it is explicit or implicit. If i know that by cheating on my girlfriend with her best friend, who tells her everything always because otherwise she feels guilty, she will find out, I am somehow also choosing to end my relationship with her. This is simple. God knows all you do and all you think, there’s no way out of it.

I also admire the courage of atheists, if as a catholic I am wrong and God doesn’t exist (which i now know I am thanks to many things God is doing in me), my worst case scenario is living a righteous life trying not to harm others or myself, maybe waste time in praying but also it helps me so it’s not a waster. However, if an atheist is wrong, oh man I don’t want to be in their shoes.

 

[ClemtheCatholic]

I apologize if the questions I am about to raise have been brought up already. I am a Catholic but I still find myself wondering the following:

(1) Why do we have human bodies which can cause us (and others) so much pain?

(2) Is it fair that good people have to suffer on earth because of the evil of others? Is it fair that the teacher stands by, looking on, whilst a kid is beaten up by a bully? Does the bully really have the right, the choice, the free-will to beat up the kid (even if for a limited time)?

(3) What about the people who wish they had never been created? Don’t they have a right to cease to exist? Free-will? Wouldn’t God be more kind if he gave people this choice?

(4) Couldn’t we just be brought before God and asked if we want Heaven or Hell without the trials of life?

(5) Why aren’t we given “20 seconds” in Hell and “20 seconds” in Heaven and then we decide which path to take in life? Doesn’t a kind father punish his child when the child does wrong in order that the child does no more wrong? Or should the father stand by for a few years and leave the child to do wrong and then come in and lock up the child for the rest of his life?

I’m just asking these out of curiosity, being a Catholic = I look forward to having my arguments ripped to shreds

 

[victorbuhagiar]

I hope I am not repeating myself, but God did not create hell for humans. Hell was created for the fallen angels who for all their superior knowledge, wanted to be like God. They chose to go to hell. When Adam and Eve decided to be like God too, they earned hell, but God was (Is) always merciful. Since man was of a lower intelligence than the fallen angels, God gave them the chance to redeem themselves. He promised to give them a Saviour and assured them of Heaven if they repented their sins. If man, past and present, does not wish to follow God’s commandments, then he would be choosing to go to hell. God send no one to hell. Man goes to hell only if he wants to.

Victor

 

[atheistgirl]

Why doesn’t He? Because you won’t let Him, and being that God is love, love can’t force you to do anything. God offers you all sorts of gifts, it’s you who won’t take them.

This contradicts earlier claims made on the forum, which stated all the good I do, is not done by me, but by God working through me.

I’m not stopping God doing anything. I’ve even prayed to Him for 40 days (I have still to write that up ).

It appears if I, as an atheist, do bad things, it’s because I’m bad, but when I do things like go into schools and work with deprived kids, trying to motivate them to think about business and social responsibility, particularly focusing on young women, when I set up a program to employ ex convicts to get them back on their feet, regain their pride, give them the opportunity to take care of their family and themselves without the need to turn to crime, when I fund schemes (with others I must add) that address social issues and needs and when I give freely of my time and expertize to clubs and groups, I’m only doing all this because of God working through me Oh well.

You say God could end our sufferings but He doesn’t… But on the other hand, look at you, you reject His existence, His love and you spread this to others,

Nope.

I don’t reject His existence. I never have. My position is I see no evidence for the existence of a Deity of any kind. That’s it. Simple really. I don’t reject anything. I don’t say there is no God.

I spread nothing to others (except love, care, happiness and smiles )

I have never told anyone, including my own children, there is no God. How could I say such a thing I don’t know if there is a God or not.

So, once again, your accusations are wrong.

If God ended your sufferings against your will, He is not loving you, He’s controlling you for whatever end He wants.

So if I could feed and cloth a hungry child, but don’t until that child asks me, I’m not loving that child, I’m controlling them for whatever end I want

If I could end the suffering of a family who have had their child abducted, but I don’t until they ask me to, I’m not being loving?

And what, if I could, but despite repeated requests, don’t, like unanswered prayers? Do you assume I must have an exceptionally good reason for doing so, and assume I’m such a good person it must be for the best, or would you think I’m a moral monster?

So if we are going to talk about Love, we first need to agree on what true love is, as people today struggle to understand it.

I know exactly what love, real love is.

I also admire the courage of atheists, if as a catholic I am wrong and God doesn’t exist (which i now know I am thanks to many things God is doing in me), my worst case scenario is living a righteous life trying not to harm others or myself, maybe waste time in praying but also it helps me so it’s not a waster. However, if an atheist is wrong, oh man I don’t want to be in their shoes.

Oh, my shoes fit just fine

Like you, I live a ‘‘righteous’’ life, do as little harm to mankind, the animal kingdom and the earth as I possibly can. do as much good as I can to everyone and everything, every day, and enjoy myself along the way.

Unlike you, I do it, because of the overwhelming sense of connection I have to all living things. I have no eye on future rewards. I just do as I do, because it’s the right thing to do (please don’t even think of asking me how I know it’s right - that line is so old and tired now, see previous threads on atheist/humanist morality for details)

Sarah x

 

[fisherman_carl]

1. 
   
   In other words, Hell is something God allows us to choose freely - even though He hopes that none of us will make that choice - because He loves us infinitely.
   
   

1. 
   true.
   
   eternity is eternal and unchanging. In this world we are temporal and changing.
   
   repentance is granted to those who can repent. only temporal beings can repent.
   
   after death we are no longer temporal but we enter eternity, in God’s realm.
   
   If one has not repented before then it is too late.
   
   hell exists as a place for those who refused to repent and now are unable to.
   
   if there was a chance those in hell could repent I think God would allow it.
   
   The logical possibilities are either that those in hell can not repent or that they can repent. If they could repent then hell would not need to be eternal. Since the bible teaches that hell is eternal therefore those in hell are unable to repent.
   
   Fr. Mitch Pacwa teaches it is like cement. When cement is in a cement truck it is fluid and mixed with water. When cement is poured out it quickly dries and hardens and becomes solid, stuck in its form. In life we are like the wet cement that can be shaped and changed. We can change our minds. When our life ends we are like the poured out cement that hardens and can no longer change our minds. Our decision whatever it was is final.

 

[fisherman_carl]

I apologize if the questions I am about to raise have been brought up already. I am a Catholic but I still find myself wondering the following:

(1) Why do we have human bodies which can cause us (and others) so much pain?

We are temporal beings which means we can change. God is eternal and unchanging. That should be your first clue.

(2) Is it fair that good people have to suffer on earth because of the evil of others? Is it fair that the teacher stands by, looking on, whilst a kid is beaten up by a bully? Does the bully really have the right, the choice, the free-will to beat up the kid (even if for a limited time)?

Just looking at the finite period of time it can appear to be unfiar. But looking at an eternal perspective, it will be made fair by God in the end when he judges the living and the dead. In the parable of the beggar and the rich man the beggar suffered all his life while the rich man did not help him even though he was quite well off for himself. In the next life their roles were reversed. The beggar Lazarus was comforted by Abraham while the rich man was suffering in agony. While, if we look at any temporal event it may seem unfair, the eternal perspective of God is fair.

(3) What about the people who wish they had never been created? Don’t they have a right to cease to exist? Free-will? Wouldn’t God be more kind if he gave people this choice?

Some people think they are Julias Ceasar. Does that mean we should consider them to be Julias Ceasar out of kindness? Disordered thinking is never something we should cater to. If a person thinks he should not have been created it is out of disordered thinking. We were created in God’s image and likeness which means we are good. Somewhere they have bought a lie about themselves. The kind thing to do would to help them see how much God loves them and not to treat them like they don’t exist.

(4) Couldn’t we just be brought before God and asked if we want Heaven or Hell without the trials of life?

We obviously need the trials of life that is why God allows them to happen to us. Wouldn’t it be easier if they just handed out the medals at the olympics to anyone who wanted one instead of making them compete in those difficult games? The journey to the goal is just as important as the end result.

(5) Why aren’t we given “20 seconds” in Hell and “20 seconds” in Heaven and then we decide which path to take in life? Doesn’t a kind father punish his child when the child does wrong in order that the child does no more wrong? Or should the father stand by for a few years and leave the child to do wrong and then come in and lock up the child for the rest of his life?
**
Heaven is awesome. Hell is horrible. Do you really need 20 seconds in each to figure that out? Good is always a better path in life then evil. Every religion will tell you that. People can experience hell in this life by the choices they make. Alternatively they can experience a taste of heaven in this life by following Jesus. You already have that opportunity. God is a Father who punishes his children so that they may be holy. See Hebrews 12**

I’m just asking these out of curiosity, being a Catholic = I look forward to having my arguments ripped to shreds

Here are my answers to your questions in bold. Hope they help you.

 

[fisherman_carl]

true.

eternity is eternal and unchanging. In this world we are temporal and changing.

repentance is granted to those who can repent. only temporal beings can repent.

after death we are no longer temporal but we enter eternity, in God’s realm.

If one has not repented before then it is too late.

hell exists as a place for those who refused to repent and now are unable to.

if there was a chance those in hell could repent I think God would allow it.

The logical possibilities are either that those in hell can not repent or that they can repent. If they could repent then hell would not need to be eternal. Since the bible teaches that hell is eternal therefore those in hell are unable to repent.

Fr. Mitch Pacwa teaches it is like cement. When cement is in a cement truck it is fluid and mixed with water. When cement is poured out it quickly dries and hardens and becomes solid, stuck in its form. In life we are like the wet cement that can be shaped and changed. We can change our minds. When our life ends we are like the poured out cement that hardens and can no longer change our minds. Our decision whatever it was is final.

The reason we can change our minds in this life is because we have bodies that are temporal and changing. We can feel one way about something and then feel differently about it later. Spirits don’t have bodies that change so they do not change their minds.

 

[fisherman_carl]

CheshireCaat:

I hate to break it to ya, but there is no hell. It’s only a tool that your religion uses to justify your perversions.

That is an assertion without evidence. The obligation is on you to prove your claim.

 

[gabz90]

This contradicts earlier claims made on the forum, which stated all the good I do, is not done by me, but by God working through me.

I’m not stopping God doing anything. I’ve even prayed to Him for 40 days (I have still to write that up ).

It appears if I, as an atheist, do bad things, it’s because I’m bad, but when I do things like go into schools and work with deprived kids, trying to motivate them to think about business and social responsibility, particularly focusing on young women, when I set up a program to employ ex convicts to get them back on their feet, regain their pride, give them the opportunity to take care of their family and themselves without the need to turn to crime, when I fund schemes (with others I must add) that address social issues and needs and when I give freely of my time and expertize to clubs and groups, I’m only doing all this because of God working through me Oh well.

Nope.

I don’t reject His existence. I never have. My position is I see no evidence for the existence of a Deity of any kind. That’s it. Simple really. I don’t reject anything. I don’t say there is no God.

I spread nothing to others (except love, care, happiness and smiles )

I have never told anyone, including my own children, there is no God. How could I say such a thing I don’t if there is a God or not.

So, once again, your accusations are wrong.

So if I could feed and cloth a hungry child, but don’t until that child asks me, I’m not loving that child, I’m controlling them for whatever end I want

If I could end the suffering of a family who have had their child abducted, but I don’t until they ask me to, I’m not being loving?

And what, if I could, but despite repeated requests, don’t, like unanswered prayers? Do you assume I must have an exceptionally good reason for doing so, and assume I’m such a good person it must be for the best, or would you think I’m a moral monster?

I know exactly what love, real love is.

Oh, my shoes fit just fine

Like you, I live a ‘‘righteous’’ life, do as little harm to mankind, the animal kingdom and the earth as I possibly can. do as much good as I can to everyone and everything, every day, and enjoy myself along the way.

Unlike you, I do it, because of the overwhelming sense of connection I have to all living things. I have no eye on future rewards. I just do as I do, because it’s the right thing to do (please don’t even think of asking me how I know it’s right - that line is so old and tired now, see previous threads on atheist/humanist morality for details)

Sarah x

Hey Sarah

Ok before I say anything let me just say I’m very happy to hear you do good for others and you work for their well-being. I’ll sure thank God for that.
Ok let’s go by what you said.

You’ve prayed to God for 40 days, that’s good, I’m happy to hear that but sometimes God tests our faiths and let me tell you, He does reveal Himself, sooner or later. While I may sound like I really believe in God now, this wasn’t always the case. I have a very logical mindset, I study engineering and I love with Maths, physics and electronics. The reason I say this is because in my environment, God is often seen as a device that poor minded people use to explain things they can’t explain or to get hope. I was one of those.

What you said about God working in you is true, but I’d rephrase it. God wants to work in you all the time, being that He created you in His own image, all the good in you is a gift that came from God. When you depart from this, then you begin to do bad. The good you do is not purely and entirely God moving you like a puppet, it is you putting to practice the good that God put in your heart when He created you.

You see no evidence for a Deity of any kind, I used to relate to that. Now I see evidence everywhere. However, please don’t give up on God, I prayed for so long before I got an answer, and now my life has changed. God is indeed powerful and He can help you in all you do. If you work with kids, He can help you heal and guide even more kids! God really wants to help you, I know not because others tell me, but because I’ve experienced it in my life. Now bear in mind my background because I’m not one of those people willing to accept it was God when something extraordinary happens, I made up a bunch of excuses of how it could be other NATURAL things, until at some point I ran out.

God says, seek and you will find, ask and you will receive, and you have my word He means it.

I said, "If God ended your sufferings against your will, He is not loving you, He’s controlling you for whatever end He wants. " to what you replied:

"So if I could feed and cloth a hungry child, but don’t until that child asks me, I’m not loving that child, I’m controlling them for whatever end I want "

And other examples of the sort. Now I feel I must point out that your examples are not addressing my statement. I never said God won’t give you anything until you ask. You have received a lot from Him, you could be a starving child in Africa with alcoholic parents who has to beg for money, you also have the gift of being born, many mothers kill their children in their wombs, God didn’t let that happen to you. Now maybe you don’t see God acting here and you think it’s just luck or odds, I can understand that. My statement was God not giving you something you reject, hence the “against your will”. You gave me examples of you not giving things to the needy until they ask, an appropriate example would have been you not giving them things because they show you they don’t want them.

There is evidence, many atheists convert when they see miracles happening before their faces, Don’t be one of those, try and pray, you have my word that God does not let anyone down.

 

[ClemtheCatholic]

Here are my answers to your questions in bold. Hope they help you.

Thank you so much!! This really helps!

God Bless,
ClemtheCatholic (and proud! )

 

[atheistgirl]

an appropriate example would have been you not giving them things because they show you they don’t want them.

I don’t know what experience you have working with deprived kids, but if you have any, you’ll know a lot of them are pretty much in your face telling exactly what to do with your good intentions and of all the things they might need, they sure don’t need anything from *you *

If you’ve worked with ex convicts, you’ll know there are certain approaches that have more success than others in rehab, because many reject out of hand their need of anything from you.

If you have your own children, or relatives that are children, you’ll know it’s SOP for kids of a certain age to know for sure they don’t need what you’re offering or advising, and reject it.

Does this mean you don’t continue to offer, don’t continue to make available, don’t continue to advise and direct, and if needed, for example, with your own kids, pick them up and physically remove them from the danger?

Of course not.

What loving or caring parent would?

What loving or caring human being would in relation to troubled kids and ex convicts?

But you seem to be saying, God does, and that’s just fine

I come back to the case of Madelaine - there is just no way to explain, or justify, the inaction of a loving, caring, ‘‘fatherly’’ God in this situation.

I say again, if any human being had information to end the suffering of the family, and refused to, for whatever reason, they would be charged with obstruction, and they would be considered moral monsters to allow the suffering of that family to continue when they could so easily have ended it.

No one in their right mind would every say, well, this person is a good person, so they must have had justifiable, and noble, reasons for failing to end this families suffering, reasons we’re not able to understand, so, this just proves how loving and good they are.

Yet, God could end their suffering in a heartbeat, but doesn’t, and people say this just proves how much God loves us

I’m not talking about the general ‘‘suffering’’ they might come across for the remainder of their lives, I’m not talking about ensuring they never cut their finger, or miss a flight, or get a nasty cold, nothing like that.

I’m specifically talking about one thing only - make it known, by perfectly natural means, for example, someone out walking their dog, or workmen clearing out a building, or whatever, where Madelaine is, and end the unimaginable suffering of this girl’s family right now.

Yet 5 years on, despite unending vigils and masses offered throughout the world, 24/7 and the intercessions of the Pope himself - nothing.

Nothing will ever convince me this is the actions of a Deity that loves, or cares about, His children.

There is evidence, many atheists convert when they see miracles happening before their faces, Don’t be one of those,

No chance

Sarah x

 

[gabz90]

I don’t know what experience you have working with deprived kids, but if you have any, you’ll know a lot of them are pretty much in your face telling exactly what to do with your good intentions and of all the things they might need, they sure don’t need anything from *you *

If you’ve worked with ex convicts, you’ll know there are certain approaches that have more success than others in rehab, because many reject out of hand their need of anything from you.

If you have your own children, or relatives that are children, you’ll know it’s SOP for kids of a certain age to know for sure they don’t need what you’re offering or advising, and reject it.

Does this mean you don’t continue to offer, don’t continue to make available, don’t continue to advise and direct, and if needed, for example, with your own kids, pick them up and physically remove them from the danger?

Of course not.

What loving or caring parent would?

What loving or caring human being would in relation to troubled kids and ex convicts?

But you seem to be saying, God does, and that’s just fine

I come back to the case of Madelaine - there is just no way to explain, or justify, the inaction of a loving, caring, ‘‘fatherly’’ God in this situation.

I say again, if any human being had information to end the suffering of the family, and refused to, for whatever reason, they would be charged with obstruction, and they would be considered moral monsters to allow the suffering of that family to continue when they could so easily have ended it.

No one in their right mind would every say, well, this person is a good person, so they must have had justifiable, and noble, reasons for failing to end this families suffering, reasons we’re not able to understand, so, this just proves how loving and good they are.

Yet, God could end their suffering in a heartbeat, but doesn’t, and people say this just proves how much God loves us

I’m not talking about the general ‘‘suffering’’ they might come across for the remainder of their lives, I’m not talking about ensuring they never cut their finger, or miss a flight, or get a nasty cold, nothing like that.

I’m specifically talking about one thing only - make it known, by perfectly natural means, for example, someone out walking their dog, or workmen clearing out a building, or whatever, where Madelaine is, and end the unimaginable suffering of this girl’s family right now.

Yet 5 years on, despite unending vigils and masses offered throughout the world, 24/7 and the intercessions of the Pope himself - nothing.

Nothing will ever convince me this is the actions of a Deity that loves, or cares about, His children.

No chance

Sarah x

I do have plenty of experience don’t worry. But see, you are still missing my point. Because those people honestly want you to resolve their needs, and even if they don’t, some of them will take what you give to them. Christ came to us not to die or be crucified but to love, and in loving us the Scriptures were fulfilled and we crucified Him. You see that God has no need to suffer, yet He loves us so much that He became one of us so we could embrace Him in a more real way, yet what did we do? Killed Him. And we still do it today.

Do you think God doesn’t want you to come to Him? He does, it’s you who is not allowing yourself to do it. Sure sometimes He takes time, so? He knows what He is doing. You have this idea that God is like this distant God who sees kids starving and He is like “oh well… too bad, let’s give this pope some more gold”… But it isn’t like that, God suffers with them. When you feel bad, when they starve, God suffers too. Perhaps more than they do, because He loves them infinitely and for a Father to see His children starve, it must hurt.

“I thought He was almighty”… yes, He is, but God can’t contradict His own decrees and He made us free. But there will be a judgement and when those kids are received in heaven full of glory and clothed with radiant vestments and the rich suffer for all eternity, then you will feel pity not for the hungry but for those who didnt share. And this will be for eternity.

Again Sarah, the only reason you remain an atheist is because you deprive yourself from the love of God, I know because I have for many years of my life. Give God a chance and you will cry because you didn’t do it sooner, that’s what happened to me. I use to tell my friends, if God could convert my heart (you really have no idea how against Him I was), He can convert anyone.

 

[atheistgirl]

You have this idea that God is like this distant God who sees kids starving and He is like “oh well… too bad, let’s give this pope some more gold”… But it isn’t like that, God suffers with them. When you feel bad, when they starve, God suffers too. Perhaps more than they do, because He loves them infinitely and for a Father to see His children starve, it must hurt.

I don’t want God to suffer with Madelaine’s family. God knows where she is. I want God to make known, after holding back 5 years, where this little girl is, so her family’s suffering can end, and if God is suffering with them, so can His.

God has the power to end this family’s suffering, but He chooses not to. It’s got nothing to do with free will now, or anything else. It’s got to do with one thing only - make known where Madelaine is, by perfectly natural means so no free will is interfered with, where she is.

But no, that hasn’t happened. Despite 5 years of daily prayers, vigils and masses.

but God can’t contradict His own decrees and He made us free.

So, God has decreed this family suffer in this way (there are thousands of others of course that I have not forgotten about, but Madelaine, being Catholic, is a good example here) and now He can’t contradict that decree

Do you understand why I can’t ever think of God as a ‘‘loving’’ or ‘‘fatherly’’ figure, when I read stuff like that?

But there will be a judgement and when those kids are received in heaven full of glory and clothed with radiant vestments and the rich suffer for all eternity, then you will feel pity not for the hungry but for those who didnt share. And this will be for eternity.

See, that’s just platitudes to me.

Firstly, the rich won’t suffer for all eternity. Why would they? Are you seriously suggesting a Christian, let’s say a Catholic, business woman, who worked hard all her life to get where she is, who donates to Catholic Charities, who personally funds projects to aid the poor and homeless, who is a fervent and devote in her practice of her Catholicism, a regular confessor, who dies in a state of grace, is going to hell, just because she’s rich Of course she isn’t.

So saying the rich will suffer all eternity is just silly.

Next, what good is an eternal reward when no one aleviates the suffering here now? Let me tell you something, if my doctor said that to me, I’d throw something at her. No, I’m not interested in having my suffering relieved in the afterlife, I’m interested in having it relieved now.

That’s what a good doctor would do. That’s what a caring parent would do. That’s what a loving Father would do.

So to say God stands by and watches unimaginable suffering just waiting to give those who might have to suffer 80 years and more, their eternal reward, is quite perverse to me. Sorry, that’s how it is.

I have very limited power, authority and ability to make a difference here on this earth. But I do what I can, and try never to miss an opportunity. Because I know my time here is limited, and when I’m gone, I’ve lost the chance to make that difference, for good, forever.

If I told my family and friends, naw, I’m not going to fund that girls college place, even though I can, because heck, sure it might give her a start in life, give her a reason to come off drugs, give her the motivation to change and make something of herself, she might meet a nicer kind of guy, marry, qualify as a lawyer, and set up a practice working with families just like the one she comes from, because really, it’s much better to let her carry on with her drugs, for sure she’ll be a prostitute in a year, live a life of depraved misery, maybe have two or three abortions, then die, maybe being stabbed to death by her pimp, because, then, her reward will be in heaven because of what she’s had to suffer here on earth.

And I don’t want to interfer with her potential eternal reward.

They’d think I was a monster - and so would I. I couldn’t live with myself, with that attitude.

But that’s a fine attitude for God to take?

Maybe it is - but I sure can’t and won’t defend it.

There may be a God. I don’t know. But if there is, I reject the descriptions of One who is a ‘‘loving father’’, for sure.

Because there is nothing loving about letting that family (and all the others of missing children) suffer as they are.

Again Sarah, the only reason you remain an atheist is because you deprive yourself from the love of God,

I’m not depriving myself of anything. I see no evidence for such a Being. I can’t deprive myself of something I can’t see any evidence for.

And apparently, if the claims here are to be believed, the little good I manage to do, I can only do because of God. The claim is I can not do good by myself, that’s God working through me. Course if I do bad, well, I’m on my own with that one

So, I can’t be rejecting God, or depriving Him, when I can’t even stop Him making me do good, now, can I?

Sarah x

 

[tonyrey]

God loves us enough to grant us complete control over our lives, giving us the final say on every decision we make. God does not force us to do anything, because to love us completely demands that level of respect. He gives us our lives and sustains them continuously through the act of loving us…even as we commit sins and even if we decide that we don’t love Him in return. If God withdrew that love from us, even for an instant, we would literally drop dead. What an incredible act of humility and love on God’s part to show us such patience and to keep us alive while we insult Him constantly and repeatedly!

Those who expect God to intervene **whenever **there is a crime, disease or disaster don’t realise we would no longer have complete control over our lives. There is plenty of evidence that God does intervene on many occasions but there obviously has to be a limit. Otherwise we would be compelled to believe there is a loving Father looking after us. People object to Big Brother constantly watching our activity yet they demand action from God which would reveal His presence! They want the cake of freedom and at the same time eat it…

 

[tonyrey]

The reason we can change our minds in this life is because we have bodies that are temporal and changing. We can feel one way about something and then feel differently about it later. Spirits don’t have bodies that change so they do not change their minds.

In that case they - and we after we die - are incapable of love because it implies the power to choose whether to love or not to love!

It is not our body that “changes our mind” but our mind, hence the expression “to make up our mind”.

 

[gabz90]

Sarah x

You say it has nothing to do with free will but it does. We all have different crosses to carry, we don’t know why God allows certain things to happen. But God does give you all the means to alleviate your suffering and pain. One of the greatest examples of this is the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. At first I sat in front of it bored, perhaps trying to tell God how i felt and constantly looking at my watch. As I persevered I discovered, little by little, how powerful and healing His presence can be. Soon I started to overcome many traumas I had from my childhood and wounds that really hurt me.

I didn’t say God decreed this family’s suffering. I said His decree was to give us freedom, freedom that evil people use for evil purposes. But if you try to reason with God in this way you will never understand Him. If what we say about God is true, it would be the same as a tiny ant trying to understand how advanced physics work. The difference is just too huge.

You can’t think of God as Fatherly and loving because you don’t experience His love in your life, once you do, you’ll just trust Him. I prayed for you today and I will continue to do so but at least don’t close your heart to Him, if you don’t want to believe then don’t, but let a couple of doors opened to His grace and love.

What I said about the rich wasn’t meant for rich people who are able to share and help, they are poor in spirit, their riches don’t blind them. I meant rich people who couldn’t care less about the well being of others. I apologise, I thought it’d be clear that I didn’t mean good people but rather the selfish type.

You are able to see what God allows, and this bothers you, but you are not able to see (at least while you are alive) all the things God doesn’t allow. For instance, you don’t know how many times you could have been attacked, abused, hurt and God didn’t allow it. Or how He protected those you love, maybe sometimes He allowed certain things, but you will never know until you die, how many times has God taken care of you.

God doesn’t disappoint those who trust Him, I know that from experience and I encourage you to try. You don’t know all the things you’re missing, and maybe when you find out, you’ll regret not coming to Him before.

 

[atheistgirl]

But if you try to reason with God in this way you will never understand Him.

Ain’t that the truth

I have a serious memo to send to God, and He ain’t going to like what’s in it

He’s fired!!!

I apologise, I thought it’d be clear that I didn’t mean good people but rather the selfish type.

Well it was. It just irks me when the ‘‘rich’’ are lumped in unequivocally, and without qualification, with those going right to hell.

For instance, you don’t know how many times you could have been attacked, abused, hurt and God didn’t allow it. Or how He protected those you love, maybe sometimes He allowed certain things, but you will never know until you die, how many times has God taken care of you.

So He can and does interfer with world events, and protects people from bad things?

But at the same time the claim is He doesn’t and can’t because that would affect our freewill and that’s just not acceptable

The bad person who did what they did with Madelaine did not have their free will affected. They abducted the child. Madelaine was a victim of this person’s free will, and her free will to remain in the chalet, in bed, was not affected either, since God didn’t make her run to her dad, or cry out a few minutes earlier, saying she was ill, or whatever.

So, everyone’s free will had free reign.

Now, just show where the girl is. And end the families suffering. Simple. But no, that’s not to be for some reason. You’re right, I’ll never understand it. Or think it’s a sign of a loving caring God.

I encourage you to try.

My position remains the same. I’m ruling nothing out, but have no reason to change position.

Maybe God doesn’t want to reveal Himself to me, because He knows the ticking off He’s going to get from me, and He knows He ain’t gonna fob me off with some platitudes

That makes sense - just ask those who know me, when I’m in the zone

Sarah x