Hell exists BECAUSE God loves us!

[atheistgirl]

God didn’t make my friend ill but He did show me that He knows a lot better than I do what is best for people. Suppose God had listened to my prayer, my friend manages to finish her shift. She walks out to her car and is abducted, probably raped (and tortured to an extent) and then murdered…

It’s highly unlikely someone who collapsed and ended up in intensive care would then just jump up and get in their car and drive home after a shift, so I think it’s highly unlikely in reality, even if she felt much better 5 minutes later, she’d have even been allowed to finish her shift, and would most likely have been put in a cab home. Her ex would have still turned up, and the staff who spotted the car would still have, and the guy would still have been arrested.

As I said, I can accept the description of God as detatched, uncaring, disinterested, or whatever, I can not accept in relation to Madelaine or any of the other thousands of missing children, the description of a ‘‘loving’’ ‘‘parental’’ ‘‘fatherly’’ God.

I’m of course open minded, if I wasn’t, I would be engaging with people here. I really doubt, just as you doubt you’ll ever discover anything that could take your faith away even though you’re open to everything as you say and always looking critically and analytically, that there’s an argument that would convince me, in this case, God’s action, or inaction, is the work of a truely loving God.

If you’d like to share, I would love to read the story of your conversion that you alluded to.

Sarah x

 

[johnnyjones]

No, but they could afford her a Catholic burial. They could lay her to rest. They would finally know that she is dead. They could find some kind of closure and start to rebuild their lives as best they can.

Sure, go right ahead.

But I don’t need any convincing we don’t always know what’s best, we just try and do our best with honesty and integrity and right motives.

You said you’re not God so don’t know why He hasn’t chosen to end this families suffering. That’s fair. I don’t know either. But I do know, not doing so, when One has the ability to, is unloving, unkind, uncaring and cruel.

I seriously doubt any argument will convince me otherwise, but you’re welcome to try.

Sarah x

Cruel suffering and bad things are the greatest roadblock to God. I’m not giving this as an excuse or answer but I wonder if we could learn, grow, help others etc. if all things were perfect? No pain, no suffering, no abuse. Would we just be blissfully happy creatures? What would motivate us? I know it’s a hard concept but does love develop without purpose?

Maybe the emotional bags we carry add to the human animal and any detraction of that makes an empty creature. Of course other horrors like child abduction (which kills me) I can see no reason for non intercession of the divine kind but maybe this is just what we have made for ourselves. I can understand trials to make a greater purpose but it seems the cost in many cases is so painful that it makes no sense.

On the other hand could the beauty and complexity of the earth and universe just have come into existence by a big , and I mean big accident? Thats for another thread though. We will all find out one day…maybe.

 

[atheistgirl]

Maybe the emotional bags we carry add to the human animal and any detraction of that makes an empty creature…

I agree with you. They absolutely do. I don’t have a problem in being forged in the fire of adversity. If I had been given things on a silver plate, I wouldn’t be the person I am today, I have no doubt about that. I understand the role challenges, pain, disappointment, rejection, and so on play in making us who we are.

And not least they help us develop a keen sense of empathy with our fellow creatures.

And when we see a mother’s heart torn to shreds by the unimaginable agony of a missing daughter, we do all we can to fix that pain.

If we knew where her daughter was, we’d end that pain right now.

That would be the right and moral thing to do.

Yet God, who is the objective standard for morality, has no problem not ending this familys pain and suffering.

So, like I said, a mysterious God, an uncaring God, a disinterested God, an unfathomable God, perhaps, but no way a kind, loving, caring, parental, fatherly God.

Sarah x

 

[BellsMom]

Conversations about whether god is ever cruel or unloving always make their way to the same two points.

1. Who are you to judge god or his plan?
2. It’s the ultimate mystery.

This ends any chance for real discussion. Its the ultimate tactic to avoid confronting basic facts that contradict gods omni-goodness

If the words “all loving” or “perfect love” can be defined as to include the acts attributed to god in the bible then those words no longer have any meaning. The idea that the word “justice” can include eternal torment and suffering for anyone who chooses not to believe in / love god means that the word “justice” has no real definition.

 

[johnnyjones]

Basically what God said to Job when he was questioned after Job had suffered greatly.
Who did it all and knows it all? Not Job.

 

[Portofino]

Basically what God said to Job when he was questioned after Job had suffered greatly.
Who did it all and knows it all? Not Job.

That’s precisely why I humbly admit that I do not know whether God exists, or not. I don’t pretend to knowledge I don’t have.

 

[mgoforth]

I agree with you. They absolutely do. I don’t have a problem in being forged in the fire of adversity. If I had been given things on a silver plate, I wouldn’t be the person I am today, I have no doubt about that. I understand the role challenges, pain, disappointment, rejection, and so on play in making us who we are.

And not least they help us develop a keen sense of empathy with our fellow creatures.

And when we see a mother’s heart torn to shreds by the unimaginable agony of a missing daughter, we do all we can to fix that pain.

If we knew where her daughter was, we’d end that pain right now.

That would be the right and moral thing to do.

Yet God, who is the objective standard for morality, has no problem not ending this familys pain and suffering.

So, like I said, a mysterious God, an uncaring God, a disinterested God, an unfathomable God, perhaps, but no way a kind, loving, caring, parental, fatherly God.

Sarah x

The atheist argument seems to be only considering one aspect of God - his all-lovingness. There are many verses of Scripture and teachings of the Church that talk about God “trying us by fire” as well. And in this example you brought up of a missing child that God doesn’t miraculously save, I’m reminded of several:

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on My Name, and I will answer them; I will say, It is My people; and they shall say, Yahweh my Elohim is my Elohim. Zechariah 13:9

Behold, I have refined you, but not with silver; I have chosen you in the furnace of affliction. For my own sake, even for my own sake, will I do it: for how should My Name be polluted? and I will not give My Glory unto another. Isaiah 10-11

And many of those who understand shall stumble, to refine and purge them, and to make white, to the time of the end because it is still for the appointed time. Daniel 11:35

And it’s talked about in the New Testament as well:

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 1 Peter 1: 3-7

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” Matthew 16:4

God calls us to suffer in this life. That is his love for us!

Are you ?

He wants us to suffer in this life so that we don’t become attached to the world and forget to pursue Heaven. This is a profound kind of love, the exact kind of love that starsmurf received from her dad. He could give us a nice life here, with no significant trials to suffer, and then when we died He would have to say to us:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7: 21-23

Why doesn’t Christ know these people, who were supposedly His followers? Because they didn’t do the will of the Father, which is to suffer in this life. Whatever hardships God allowed them to experience, they ignored the wake-up call and just wished for more temporary happiness. When they saw others suffering, they might have offered to help out of a sense of obligation, but they didn’t choose to suffer along with their neighbors. Christ suffered for us, and if we won’t suffer for Him directly, as the martyrs do, or indirectly by joining in the pain of our brothers and sisters, then we don’t know Him at all and He won’t know us.

I would say, after thinking about your example a little more, that God desperately wants the entire McCann family to be with Him in Heaven and that He considers it so important (as it logically is), that He allowed this intense trial for them. He loves them so much that He’s trying to cleanse them by fire from any attachment to this world that might prevent them from enjoying eternal happiness.

 

[interestedman]

The atheist argument seems to be only considering one aspect of God - his all-lovingness. There are many verses of Scripture and teachings of the Church that talk about God “trying us by fire” as well. And in this example you brought up of a missing child that God doesn’t miraculously save, I’m reminded of several:

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on My Name, and I will answer them; I will say, It is My people; and they shall say, Yahweh my Elohim is my Elohim. Zechariah 13:9

Behold, I have refined you, but not with silver; I have chosen you in the furnace of affliction. For my own sake, even for my own sake, will I do it: for how should My Name be polluted? and I will not give My Glory unto another. Isaiah 10-11

And many of those who understand shall stumble, to refine and purge them, and to make white, to the time of the end because it is still for the appointed time. Daniel 11:35

And it’s talked about in the New Testament as well:

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 1 Peter 1: 3-7

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” Matthew 16:4

God calls us to suffer in this life. That is his love for us!

Are you ?

He wants us to suffer in this life so that we don’t become attached to the world and forget to pursue Heaven. This is a profound kind of love, the exact kind of love that starsmurf received from her dad. He could give us a nice life here, with no significant trials to suffer, and then when we died He would have to say to us:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7: 21-23

Why doesn’t Christ know these people, who were supposedly His followers? Because they didn’t do the will of the Father, which is to suffer in this life. Whatever hardships God allowed them to experience, they ignored the wake-up call and just wished for more temporary happiness. When they saw others suffering, they might have offered to help out of a sense of obligation, but they didn’t choose to suffer along with their neighbors. Christ suffered for us, and if we won’t suffer for Him directly, as the martyrs do, or indirectly by joining in the pain of our brothers and sisters, then we don’t know Him at all and He won’t know us.

I would say, after thinking about your example a little more, that God desperately wants the entire McCann family to be with Him in Heaven and that He considers it so important (as it logically is), that He allowed this intense trial for them. He loves them so much that He’s trying to cleanse them by fire from any attachment to this world that might prevent them from enjoying eternal happiness.

Really? REALLY?? God loves that family so much that he killed their kid? I guess I should just start killing people and making life miserable for others as a trial from God. I should just punch the next person I see in the face and tell them I am doing God’s work.

 

[mgoforth]

Really? REALLY?? God loves that family so much that he killed their kid? I guess I should just start killing people and making life miserable for others as a trial from God. I should just punch the next person I see in the face and tell them I am doing God’s work.

I’ve seen enough to tell me that your only interest, “interestedman”, is to attack the Church and make ridiculous comparisons. I’m done responding, but will continue to pray for you.

 

[interestedman]

Your arguments are such nonsense though. God loves us so he makes us suffer so we don’t become attached to this world. What kind of mental gymnastics did you do to come up with this stuff? Seriously.

 

[mgoforth]

Your arguments are such nonsense though. God loves us so he makes us suffer so we don’t become attached to this world. What kind of mental gymnastics did you do to come up with this stuff? Seriously.

:thankyou:

 

[Xuan]

1. 
   
   In other words, Hell is something God allows us to choose freely - even though He hopes that none of us will make that choice - because He loves us infinitely.
   
   

1. 
   Hi mgoforth,
   
   Where did you get the idea that love means giving someone whatever he wants, or thinks he wants? Love is about having the person’s best interests at heart.
   
   What everyone really wants is happiness. Many people are confused about what leads to real happiness, so they pursue things that won’t really lead there at all, like “running away from God.” But to give people whatever they think they want, knowing it’s not in their best interests, and knowing it’s not what they really want, is really disingenuous; it’s not love at all, especially not infinite love.
   
   Xuan

 

[mgoforth]

Hi mgoforth,

Where did you get the idea that love means giving someone whatever he wants, or thinks he wants? Love is about having the person’s best interests at heart.

What everyone really wants is happiness. Many people are confused about what leads to real happiness, so they pursue things that won’t really lead there at all, like “running away from God.” But to give people whatever they think they want, knowing it’s not in their best interests, and knowing it’s not what they really want, is really disingenuous; it’s not love at all, especially not infinite love.

Xuan

Your argument would be true, IF God had never given us explicit knowledge that to be in His presence in Heaven is the only true and eternal happiness, AND if He had not sent His Son to teach us exactly how to get to Heaven. There is invincible ignorance and then there is pride and rejection. God will decide for each person who dies outside His grace which applies to them.

 

[Xuan]

Your argument would be true, IF God had never given us explicit knowledge that to be in His presence in Heaven is the only true and eternal happiness, AND if He had not sent His Son to teach us exactly how to get to Heaven. There is invincible ignorance and then there is pride and rejection. God will decide for each person who dies outside His grace which applies to them.

Hi mgoforth,

Scattering clues can help, but if a person doesn’t pick up on them (not talking about the Church’s narrow definition of “invincible ignorance”), giving the person whatever he erroneously thinks he wants, rather than the happiness he really wants, is not love. Love is having the person’s best interests at heart; infinite love is having the person’s best interests at heart without limits, not just walking away saying “Oh well, he had his shot.”

Xuan

 

[mgoforth]

Hi mgoforth,

Scattering clues can help, but if a person doesn’t pick up on them (not talking about the Church’s narrow definition of “invincible ignorance”), giving the person whatever he erroneously thinks he wants, rather than the happiness he really wants, is not love. Love is having the person’s best interests at heart; infinite love is having the person’s best interests at heart without limits, not just walking away saying “Oh well, he had his shot.”

Xuan

That is your opinion and you’re certainly entitled to it. It is not the teaching of the Catholic Church. God has given you free will to disagree with His teachings, which is what this thread is about. He has also promised us negative consequences if we make the wrong decisions.

Forgive me if I choose to follow the teachings of Christ and the saints instead of yours.

 

[Xuan]

That is your opinion and you’re certainly entitled to it. It is not the teaching of the Catholic Church. God has given you free will to disagree with His teachings, which is what this thread is about. He has also promised us negative consequences if we make the wrong decisions.

Forgive me if I choose to follow the teachings of Christ and the saints instead of yours.

Hi mgoforth,

I’m not teaching anything. I have no teachings. I’m discussing what people mean by “love”. I try to follow the teachings of Christ and the saints too.

If you didn’t want to discuss it, I’m not sure why you started the thread, though.

Xuan

 

[JDaniel]

Dear JD…

You are under the assumption that all the postings on this site are valuable and correct information. I would suggest that you re-think this assumption. There are a handful of posters who nake good and worthy posts (like hansard forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9848075&postcount=32 ) but most of the posts are incredibly “naive” or (please pardon my lack of “charity”) simply idiotic. To say that people “choose” eternal damnation (whatever that might be) is ludicrous. Only a total idiot would “choose” eternal suffering, and only a very cruel being would grant the wish of a lunatic.

Believe me, I would not “choose” to be tormented forever by some devils or demons. If God wishes to “throw” me into hell for the lack of my belief, he could do it (being the strongest BULLY on the block), And if you think that the information on this board qualifies as good, reliable information, you have another think coming.

Trurl:

Please use your brain. I am not saying any of that claptrap. I am saying that you are here, as a starting point for your further edification. The Aborigine who never leaves the jungle, so to speak, never gets that chance. That is “invincible ignorance.” It cannot be overcome by any effort at all on the part of the Aborigine. Hence, the invincibility of it.

If however, that same Aborigine found a source to overcome the invincibility of his ignorance but chose not to pursue it, well, that’s no longer invincibility.

God bless,
jd

 

[JDaniel]

What suffering WOULD God allow?

Would you allow your child to suffer ANY pain or discomfort or sadness? If so, why?

Then you’re not really open to this discussion.

Furthermore, as an atheist why do you rationally care about the suffering of another human more than the suffering of an ant or a bacterium? Why do you even assign a moral component to suffering, since it is just a response to a stimulus? Do you worry about machines suffering? Aren’t we just biological machines?

Mike:

It is rather interesting that non-theists hold to such sentimentality, isn’t it? As you point out, we are nothing more than “biological machines.” Computers with a soft exoskeleton. Pain is nothing more than a series of keystrokes telling the computer’s RAM what to think. But, how can a computer hate? How can a computer reject? Computers merely select. . . the best of a number of programmed choices. That the rest appear to be rejected is nothing but a manner of speaking. As we know in fact, computers can’t suffer. How strange.

God bless,
jd

 

[atheistgirl]

He wants us to suffer in this life so that we don’t become attached to the world and forget to pursue Heaven. This is a profound kind of love, the exact kind of love that starsmurf received from her dad. He could give us a nice life here, with no significant trials to suffer, and then when we died He would have to say to us:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 7: 21-23

The two are not mutually exclusive. Are you seriously suggesting that someone, with a devout faith, which they practiced and kept to the end, receiving the sacraments, confessing their sins, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and so on, who never suffered any real hardship in this life comparatively speaking, and lived a good standard of living, can’t reach heaven because God didn’t make them suffer enough You can’t seriously mean that.

I would say, after thinking about your example a little more, that God desperately wants the entire McCann family to be with Him in Heaven and that He considers it so important (as it logically is), that He allowed this intense trial for them. He loves them so much that He’s trying to cleanse them by fire from any attachment to this world that might prevent them from enjoying eternal happiness.

The Bible quotes you gave just say to me the same excuses for the lack of love shown by God have been made for over 2000 years.

It’s really simple and straightforward to me.

Anyone, with any humanity in them, who knew the whereabouts of the McCann’s child, would end that desperate family’s suffering right now. That would be the right, the moral, thing to do.

Anyone with this knowledge, who stood by and did nothing, and watched this family suffer unimaginable pain, is, in my opinion, a monster.

God, who does know where Madelaine is, chooses not to end their suffering.

So believers are left making excuses for God’s inactivity, calling it profound love and testing by fire and all the rest. But it’s just excuses.

To me, it means one of two things only:

God isn’t ending this family’s suffering, because He can’t. He’s not there.

or

God is utterly and completely detatched from human suffering, and can not relate to human pain and anguish. God is detatched, disinterested, and uncaring, and certainly not a loving, parental, fatherly God.

Sarah x

 

[mgoforth]

Hi mgoforth,

I’m not teaching anything. I have no teachings. I’m discussing what people mean by “love”. I try to follow the teachings of Christ and the saints too.

If you didn’t want to discuss it, I’m not sure why you started the thread, though.

Xuan

Sorry, I thought we had been discussing it? I feel like I’ve told you that God respects our choices even if they are bad for us. You responded that He wouldn’t do that because He knows that those bad decisions are not the correct ultimate decision, and I read your perspective that perfect love requires God to violate our free will when we fail to heed His clear warnings. I don’t agree with that, and I promise you the Church doesn’t either.

What else would you like to discuss?